Is ATS and UFOlogy a playground for Government mind control researchers?

Originally posted by Shawnna

I agree using the phrase "mind control" is a bit misleading --- I think Creating a UFO Meme is more relevant.

-snip-

My sense is we have a group of people hell-bent on creating a certain belief system as it relates to UFO's.

I'd agree that's much more accurate for this discussion.

What I really see going on is an effort to create and encourage "Fantastic Mythology" around a very real Phenomena , UFOs.

Originally posted by Shawnna
I agree using the phrase "mind control" is a bit misleading --- I think Creating a UFO Meme is more relevant.

...
"The Roswell incident" is but one variation of the UFO meme.

So Shawnna,

What exactly are you trying to prove? That UFO's are an invention of the DOD and it derivatives?

I believe that DOD Inc. does use UFO's as cover. It's even been admitted by insiders. But this doesn't tell the whole story. Knowing which stories are true is the hard part. Even then, every true story has its "additions" over time.

What rings true to you?

Sorry for such a long post but I had these copied to a Word Doc and didnt have the link. However you can look up the patents.

This is just a few of the things in the public...you can imagine what is classified

This is in regard to Springers comment about advertising merely being used to make you buy a product with art and illustrations..theres much more behind what you are seeing and hearing when you see advertisements...Goes for prime time shows.

www.rexresearch.com...

US Patents On Subliminal Suggestion & Mind Control
Note - These are just a portion of the patents available on the net which deal with mind control, mental and emotional influencing, perception engineering and brain functioning performed remotely and/or directly through the electronic media and other venues and methods of application. Keep in mind these are patents filed in the public domain. Unknown and black ops technology created within the military industrial complex obviously remain hidden. Clearly, the ability to control the mental processes, attitudes, fears and perceptions of mass America is clearly far more advanced than the average American understands...or would like to believe. -JR

Nervous System Manipulation by EM Fields from Monitors
Loos, Hendricus
Abstract: Physiological effects have been observed in a human subject in response to stimulation of the skin with weak electromagnetic fields that are pulsed with certain frequencies near 1/2 Hz or 2.4 Hz, such as to excite a sensory resonance. Many computer monitors and TV tubes, when displaying pulsed images, emit pulsed electromagnetic fields of sufficient amplitudes to cause such excitation. It is therefore possible to manipulate the nervous system of a subject by pulsing images displayed on a nearby computer monitor or TV set. For the latter, the image pulsing may be embedded in the program material, or it may be overlaid by modulating a video stream, either as an RF signal or as a video signal. The image displayed on a computer monitor may be pulsed effectively by a simple computer program. For certain monitors, pulsed electromagnetic fields capable of exciting sensory resonances in nearby subjects may be generated even as the displayed images are pulsed with subliminal intensity. USP # 6,488,617 (December 3, 2002)


Method and Device for Producing a Desired Brain State Katz, Bruce
Abstract ~ A method and device for the production of a desired brain state in an individual contain means for monitoring and analyzing the brain state while a set of one or more magnets produce fields that alter this state. A computational system alters various parameters of the magnetic fields in order to close the gap between the actual and desired brain state. This feedback process operates continuously until the gap is minimized and/or removed. USP # 6,487,531 (November 26, 2002)

FM

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Trimmed massive cut'paste

[edit on 30/11/06 by masqua]

Originally posted by Saviour Of The RealDr. Green serves on numerous Department of Defense, Intelligence and National Academy of Sciences Commissions. He Chairs the Science Board for the Undersecretary of the Army for Operations Research and has served as Chair of the Board on Army Science and Technology. He holds the National Intelligence Medal for investigations in forensic intelligence and served as an Officer and continues as a consultant with the Central Intelligence Agency.

There's even more stuff about Green at the first link above.

So now ATS has brought us the Serpo hoax, the dynamic duo sleeper and johnlear, and now Kit Green's on board who's supposedly connected to Doty and Lear? Does anybody see a pattern here? I think you are right on, I said the same thing about coast to coast radio and the like, in my book, it is a dated thread post in the book.I agree but not just here, all the forums out there, there is a conspiracy the government is mirroring the internet now, I will try to dig up the link.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by ufotimetravel]
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Trimmed BIG quote

[edit on 30/11/06 by masqua]

Originally posted by TruthCanHurt
So Shawnna,

What exactly are you trying to prove? That UFO's are an invention of the DOD and it derivatives?

I believe that DOD Inc. does use UFO's as cover. It's even been admitted by insiders. But this doesn't tell the whole story. Knowing which stories are true is the hard part. Even then, every true story has its "additions" over time.

What rings true to you?

I am not trying to prove anything at this point. I am simply trying to show that there's a lot more to UFO's than...... well..... UFO's.

As for what rings true to me? Well..... I haven't come to any conclusions really. Still researching and learning.

I'm also still waiting for Springer to answer my questions.

Originally posted by magnito_student
Sorry for such a long post but I had these copied to a Word Doc and didnt have the link. However you can look up the patents.

This is just a few of the things in the public...you can imagine what is classified

This is in regard to Springers comment about advertising merely being used to make you buy a product with art and illustrations..theres much more behind what you are seeing and hearing when you see advertisements...Goes for prime time shows.

Excellent work magnito_student!

Always,
Shawnna

You know how they say that UFOs are used to cover black projects like the stealth, sr71, u2, and the next generation sr71? What if its the other way around. What if the black projects stealth etc are used to cover up the reality of UFOs that are really piloted by ETs. Now where these ETs are from ,,,who knows.

What if it is so mind boggling we would probably be better off not knowing

from an Email received from Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green:

But, I am not evil or a liar about the above or anything else I have done in Intelligence (less than complete...often...about classified materials...but always and even then...consistent with the truth even if less detailed.

NUFF SAID...

Springer...

Unfortunately Springer...I have to disagree with "Nuff Said". I don't completely go down the entire length of some of the rabbit holes Shawnna has ventured into, and I don't come to many of the same conclusions regarding Dr. Green as she has. In fact, there are many close to us (like you) who know that this is one topic Shawnna and I have disagreed on often, and often quite heatedly.

However I get a sick, sinking feeling when I see anyone accepting the word of one person, at face value, without any verification from secondary sources. I am not saying that Dr. Green does not come across as respectable, sincere, and charismatic. He has devoted an inordinate amount of time to answering some pretty tough questions, and I believe in just about every case, has made a concerted effort to answer what he could in as truthful a manner as a person can with top secret security clearances.

However his comment must not be taken with a grain of salt "less than complete...often...about classified materials...but always and even then...consistent with the truth even if less detailed."

Kit is quite skilled at providing a version of the truth, sometimes less than complete...but which often leads to the recipient drawing conclusions that are completely inaccurate and untrue. But Kit lets them. There are a couple of cases in the Serpo drama where this happened, and it was only corrected when the issue was made public. If not - the misunderstanding would have gone on uncorrected. Then again, in all fairness - Kit didn't really know about the misunderstanding. But that is the problem when incomplete and "less detailed" answers are provided. Misunderstandings and inaccurate conclusions are drawn based on those half-answers.

Kit was never "associated" with Victor or Bill in any way prior to Rick bringing serpo to his attention.

Rick did not drag Hal or Kit into Serpo. I'm pretty certain Kit would not have presented it that way to you either. According to Dr. Green, he took a proactive approach himself at the beginning, and was the driving force in putting together the "team of 5" for analysis of the Serpo releases. This answer came when I asked Kit, early on, who brought him into the Serpo analysis. Because my suspicion was much as yours is - that Rick "sucked" him into it. He has denied this to be the case. You may want to ask him about that directly. If he requests it, I'd be glad to get together and compare notes with you and him regarding his memory of events.

The reason Rick brought it to their attention is because they have been friends since meeting in Europe I think it was Europe) while working for the U.S. Government 25 or so years ago.

No - ask Kit about the story where Rick showed him a picture when they had "met" years earlier but Kit did not really "know" Rick until the summer of 1986 - regarding the MJ12 drama with Moore, Shandera, Collins, and Rick.

I have been told he brought it to their attention under the auspices of asking them to "check around" about the "DIA" people purportedly involved and see if they were genuine.

This may be true - I do recall Kit mentioning that...but again, Dr. Green was admittedly the driving force behind putting together the "team of 5" - not Rick.

To say that Kit and Hal Puthoff were/are associated with VM, or BR is not a fair statement. They responded to emails about a story Kit's friend, Rick, asked them about. That's a VERY LOOSE "association" IMHO.

You're kidding right? Several months of very intense collaboration, analysis, and discussion do not constitute a "very loose" association.

I like Dr. Green - he's a brilliant man and it's an honor to have a conversation with him. However no one, regardless of status or charisma, stands above the truth. If Kit makes a statement, just as if any of us do, before it can be "true" it should be verified or corroborated. I agree with you on the "mind control" topic. There is not enough evidence to draw any connection between Dr. Green and the horrible unethical past experiments conducted by the CIA. To do so is unfair.

However the leap you make to clearing his name in his associations with the other members of the "team of 5" throughout the Serpo drama, and his connections to this drama, and Rick, are also unfair. There is enough evidence to draw solid connections there. He is not clear of that, and to attempt to clear him of those connections already is just as unfair to do. Yes, we've published in one of our articles that Kit's current actions appear to signify that he was not complicit in creating Serpo. However that, in no way, completely clears him of these activities, or any activities either in the past, or ongoing, that are related to Serpo, or Rick, or the cast of associated puppets.

Having input from the man is important, and it sure is great to have the correspondence. But the truth remains in the hands of what evidence turns up. And it does us all a disservice to either imagine evidence where none exists (in regards to mind control connections) or to ignore evidence where it does exist (in regards to Serpo and past ufology activities). In my mind, to do either is "selling out" against the truth, one way or another.

-Ry

[edit on 29-11-2006 by rdube02]

My turn to clarify

I appreciate Ry stepping in here as it is helpful to have insight from others who have been involved.



And Ry's post made me realize that some may think I believe Kit Green may have been involved in the unethical and immoral government-sponsored research projects such as MK ULTRA.

Nothing could be further from the truth as I have seen no evidence related to this.

I do believe he is involved in somehow shaping how the public feels about UFOs.

I hope this clarifies that.

Always,
Shawnna

PS - I am still waiting for Springer's response to my questions.

I have a sense I'll be waiting a while - given what I think the answer will be.

:shk:

[edit on 29-11-2006 by Shawnna]

Originally posted by nightwing
“Is UFOlogy (and ATS by extension and virtue of it’s popularity) a playground for Government mind control researchers?” == Thread author

I would suggest one final alteration before jumping in.

Is UFOlogy (and alternate reality theories/conspiracies) a playground for mind control research ?
If this slightly altered question can be answered, then the researchers may be a surprise. What if it is NOT
the Government at all ?

"Part of understanding the tendrils of UFOlogy is the ability to put aside prejudice and examine the many facets openly." == cheepnis

I have never seen this done. Would you have an example available ?
Note by removing the word "Government" from the topic question, I am
addressing an obvious prejudice built into the topic question.

Some think the whole UFOlogy was created and funded by the government.

A gravy train for government handouts to Hollywood SiFi fakers.

Unfortunately I’m pressed for time at the moment but I’d like to quickly address a few points:

Shawnna: In examining the historical relationships and work of the individuals involved, it is quite clear that some of those with interest in PsyOps programs appear to have a historical interest in UFOlogy as well. I have to ask why?

Me too. Now this will undoubtedly upset some folks but I have to wonder could it be because they recognize it attracts easy prey (for lack of a better metaphor)?

Shawnna: Did anyone read it yet? I'll post it again here and would very much appreciate your considered response AFTER reading it.

Guilty. But I will catch up with this and some other posters I may have missed as soon as I get a chance.

Spinger: I have heard that AFOSI were "not smart enough" to actually use "UFOs" as a cover for the Stealth's test flights.

I don’t know about that but isn’t the bigger problem the ETH hasn’t been officially endorsed as a reality? I mean since when is “Move along folks, there’s nothing to see here. That was just a UFO.” a credible explanation?

lost_shaman: What I really see going on is an effort to create and encourage "Fantastic Mythology" around a very real Phenomena , UFOs.

Speaking of “mythology” wasn’t Doty a paid consultant to the to the X-Files TV series? Talk about a coup.

TruthCanHurt: What exactly are you trying to prove? That UFO's are an invention of the DOD and it derivatives?

That might be a stretch but could Alien contact be?

MKULTRA: I’d like to clarify my earlier comment about not having an opinion on it or being interested in it. The truth is I haven’t researched it so I don’t feel qualified to comment on any evidence of a direct connection to UFOlogy. Then again, you know what they say about birds of a feather...

Originally posted by rdube02

Unfortunately Springer...I have to disagree with "Nuff Said".

OK... I was sharing my opinion and beliefs on the matter and the man. The "'nuff said" was from my perspective and certainly not meant as a suggestion to others.

You have your requirements for believing someone and I have mine, fair enough.

One thing I don't do is "suspect" someone because they didn't clear up an "incorrect answer" they didn't know about.

Springer...

Originally posted by ShawnnaIn examining the historical relationships and work of the individuals involved, it is quite clear that some of those with interest in PsyOps programs appear to have a historical interest in UFOlogy as well. I have to ask why?

Originally posted by Saviour Of The RealMe too. Now this will undoubtedly upset some folks but I have to wonder could it be because they recognize it attracts easy prey (for lack of a better metaphor)?

That could indeed be part of it.

However, when you start digging into this stuff, you begin to see the level of occult/paranormal beliefs some of these individuals possess. This influence has been profound in this area.

The three-part article posted previously will lay the groundwork for this understanding. Once you've read it, I'd love to hear your feedback.

Then to further your understanding of the influence this area has had on UFOlogy, you need to look into "The Nine". Here's an article that is an extract based on The Stargate Conspiracy by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince

One New Age channelling cult, above all the rest, has had a huge - very disturbing influence on hundreds of thousands of devotees worldwide. Known as 'The Nine', its disciples include cutting edge scientists, multi-millionaire industrialists and leading politicians. This exclusive extract based on The Startgate Conspiracy by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince looks at the sinister origins of The Nine

I am the beginning. I am the end. I am the emissary. But the original time I was on the Planet Earth was 34,000 of your years ago. I am the balance. And when I say "I" - I mean because I am an emissary for The Nine. It is not I , but it is the group…We are nine principles of the Universe, yet together we are one.

The declaration above is typical of the channelled pronouncements of the Council of Nine – or just ‘The Nine’. They contain all the usual New Age ingredients of grandiose statements, shaky grammar and unprovable predictions. But unlike all the other channelling cults, that of The Nine has serious clout. Perhaps the reason for this is that they claim to be the Ennead, or the nine major gods of ancient Egypt (see panel). Or could there be another reason, one that owes more to The X-Files than the Pyramid Texts?
Although The Nine may appear to be quintessentially a modern phenomenon, our research uncovered its truly astonishing pedigree. In fact, the story begins nearly 50 years ago, in a private research laboratory in Glen Cove, Maine, called the Round Table Foundation, run by a medical doctor named Andrija Puharich (also known as Henry K Puharich).Set up in 1948 to research the paranormal, among the noted psychics studied at the Foundation were the famous Irish medium Eileen Garrett and the Dutch clairvoyant Peter Hurkos (Pieter van de Hirk).Prominent members included the influential philosopher and inventor Arthur M Young and the socialite Alice Bouverie (née Astor).

In December 1952, Puharich brought into his laboratory an Indian mystic named Dr D G Vinod, who began to channel The Nine or ‘the Nine Principles’. In the months before Vinod returned to India, a group met regularly to hear The Nine’s channelled wisdom. Never known for their modesty, The Nine proclaimed themselves to be God, stating "God is nobody else than we together, the Nine Principles of God."

Three years later, there appeared to be independent confirmation of their existence. In Mexico, Puharich and Young met Charles and Lillian Laughead, former Christian missionaries who were by then prominent in the burgeoning UFO contactee movement. (For a description of their involvement in the Dorothy Martin circle, see Jerome Clark’s ‘When Prophecy Failed’ in FT117.) Back in the States a few weeks later, Puharich received a letter from the Laugheads containing messages received by their group’s channeller. This message also claimed to come from the Nine Principles, even – amazingly – including references to the earlier communications transmitted through Dr Vinod. Could The Nine possibly be for real?

Perhaps the answer is embedded in the career of Puharich himself. After disbanding the Round Table Foundation in 1958, he worked for 10 years as an inventor of medical devices and achieved international recognition as a parapsychologist, most famously studying the Brazilian psychic surgeon, Arigo (José Pedro de Freitas). But all that was to pale into insignificance because, in 1971, Puharich discovered Uri Geller.

At their first meetings in Tel Aviv in 1971, Puharich hypnotised Geller in an attempt to find out where his abilities came from. As a result, the young Israeli started to channel ‘Spectra’ – an entity which claimed to be a conscious super-computer aboard a spaceship. However, Puharich suggested to him that there might be a connection with the Nine Principles, and Spectra readily agreed that there was. The Nine claimed that they had programmed Geller with his powers as a young child.

Through Geller, The Nine alerted Puharich to his life’s mission, which was to use Geller’s talents to alert the world to an imminent mass landing of spaceships that would bring representatives of The Nine. However, Geller – by now an international psychic superstar – bowed out in 1973 and has resolutely turned his back on The Nine ever since. Puharich had to find other channels.

Now.... let's look at a social network diagram for Christopher 'Kit' Green, MD.





I've also uploaded the full .pdf of this information here

Notice the name right next to Kit's - Uri Geller.



Like I said before, this rabbit hole is deep and with many tunnels!

My tin foil hat is firmly in place!



Always,
Shawnna

Originally posted by Springer
You have your requirements for believing someone and I have mine, fair enough.

Fair enough...

--------

From An Alternative Paradigm for Interviewing
by Joe Navarro, M.A.

Synchrony:

In interviewing and detecting deception, synchrony plays an important role. Ideally, synchrony (e.g., harmony, congruence, and concordance) should occur between the interviewer and the interviewee; between what is said vocally and nonverbally; between the circumstances of the moment and what the subject is saying; and between events and emotions, including synchrony of time and space.


Synchrony should occur between what is being said and the events of the moment. During a street interview, if the subject interjects with superfluous information or facts totally irrelevant, the officer should note the disharmony. The information and facts should remain pertinent to the issue at hand, the circumstances, and the questions. When the answers are asynchronous with the event and questions, officers may assume that something likely is wrong or the person is stalling for time to fabricate a story.

(snip)

Last, synchrony should exist between events, time, and space. A person who delays reporting a significant event, such as the drowning of a fellow passenger, or one who travels to another jurisdiction to report the event rightfully should come under suspicion. Additionally, interviewers should remain cognizant of subjects who report events that would have been impossible for them to observe from the vantage point from which they tell the story. People who lie do not think of how synchrony fits into the equation; yet, it plays a major role during interviews and the reporting of crimes.

Perception Management:

Verbally, liars will try to vocalize their honesty, integrity, and the implausibility of their involvement in committing a crime. They will try to “look good” to the interviewer. They may use perception management statements, such as “I could never hurt someone,” “Lying is below me,” “I have never lied,” “I would never lie,” or “I would never do such a thing,” all of which should alert investigators to the possibility of deception. Other statements, such as “to be perfectly frank,” “to be honest,” “to be perfectly truthful,” or “I was always taught to tell the truth,” are solely intended to influence the perception of the interviewer.

----

We can allow ourselves be be misled...on either side of the issues, pro or con...or we can choose to follow the road less traveled. Usually the middle. Believe nothing, neither guilt nor innocence, without supporting evidence either way.

-Ry

Very well said, Ry.

This is exactly why I use an individual's input as just another piece of the puzzle when trying to find the truth of any given situation.



Always,
Shawnna

Looks llike Ry and magnito touched on what I was getting at.
I don't want to tie up this thread with my own account of 'electronic harassment' but suffice to say that I'm not the only who's experienced it and it seems to be gaining popularity for use against UFOlogists.
infoventures.com...
www.who.int...
These links may help.

A friend once told me not to make assumptions based on perceptions. This has proved to be sound advice. Perceptual reality can have a clouding effect on the thought processes.

If I was to tell this story accurately, I had no choice but to enter the drama, to recount my role as the reportorial "I" who went knocking on every door, who was lied to, who wound up on a sort of Gulliver's travels to strange "lands" across America.

Howard Blum
Out There
Page 329
A Note on Sources

"My sense is we have a group of people hell-bent on creating a certain belief system as it relates to UFO's. " == Shawnna

At least they are beginning to show some unification. There is another thread currently near this one that allows for the
viewing of the "Fastwalker" production.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
It is striking in that many folks appear to be playing in the same orchestra that used to be percieved as "divergent".
How does this "production" relate to what you mean by "certain belief system" ?

"What rings true to you?" == TruthCanHurt

I believe that there is a statistically UNLIKELY predominance of military folks active in UFOlogy. Or is this something
you have not looked at ?

"Some think the whole UFOlogy was created and funded by the government." == TeslaandLyne

I believe there is a credible argument that the Roswell Incident was created and funded by "somebody". But WHICH
beliefs in this area are actively being created and which are "normal", assuming that word even applies ? Re-reading
this question I see it is not clear. Which beliefs are "Sponsored" and which are individual efforts ?

Originally posted by lost_shaman

AFOSI involvement with UFOs goes all the way back to 1947 when AFOSI split with CIC.

It's been brought to my attention that my statement above was worded to read incorrectly. As a falsehood.

I should have worded it in this way.

AFOSI involvement with UFOs can be traced back into 1947 with CIC UFO investigations.

As AFOSI did NOT split from CIC , but rather took over AF CIC operations in 1948.

Sorry if that caused any confusion for anyone.

Thanks for the clarification lost_shaman.
Now if I can just figure out why they call them Unidentified I'll be
the man.

Originally posted by cheepnis
Now if I can just figure out why they call them Unidentified I'll be the man.

I take it you’re not buying this?

"Even in cases where radar may identify target properties that cannot be explained within the accepted frame of understanding of our physical world, the authentic observation of a target having such properties will shed little or no light on its nature beyond the characteristics observed, and it will therefore remain unidentified."

Condon Report, 1968
Sec VI, Chapter 5
Radar and the Observation of UFOs
Roy H. Blackmer, Jr.
Page 1060