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UCLA Police Taser Student For Not Showing ID W/Video

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posted on Nov, 21 2006 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I watched the video on abuse. Is the author saying that every one of those incidents happened in the US?


Why does it have to be just the US. We need to curb the growing police state here but this video shows what happens when you have small minded thugs that have athority.

Look at the illustration I posted earlier. Police do not need to dress like that, they only dress like that to instill fear. We need less fear and more love dont you think? We create the feeling of a lack of safety through the media. We fear each other, we fear our government, we fear the police, we fear terror and now we are even learning to fear our children.

Who you should ask yourself is pushing all this fear?




posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Why does it have to be just the US. We need to curb the growing police state here but this video shows what happens when you have small minded thugs that have athority.

It also shows what happens when people spit in the face of authority.

We always need to keep an open mind, and to view both sides of every incident. If a person refuses to co-operate with a lawful request, we need to look at a) why they refused, and b) how they refused. This man was obviously out of control; screaming at the top of his lungs. Why? To get attention and to elicit sympathy. If we concentrate on that, we tend to overlook what he might have done wrong to begin with.


Look at the illustration I posted earlier. Police do not need to dress like that, they only dress like that to instill fear. We need less fear and more love dont you think? We create the feeling of a lack of safety through the media. We fear each other, we fear our government, we fear the police, we fear terror and now we are even learning to fear our children.

Who you should ask yourself is pushing all this fear?

That's just being silly. Their dress is perfectly acceptable. It identifies them, instills authority and helps you to pick them out of a crowd.

As for the fear factor, I can only say that is your own personal psyche at work. Most people do not live in such a constant state of fear.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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Anyone watch Fox News last night (I know, I know...boo, hiss)? Hannity and Colmes had on their Fox Legal Analyst last night (didn't catch the name) and he said the cops really have an uphill battle proving they did the right thing. He also said one of the cops had been investigated in the death of a homeless man too. Sean Hannity really came off being biased trying to protect the cops, but the Fox lawyer just wasn't agreeing and said video will have a large impact in court.

I still think if the cops prove that they followed procedure that they might get off.

As much as I keep coming back to this thread I still get a laugh out of D4rk Knight's post on the first page:

"dude should of stood up.....thus avoiding a tasering." Classic.

[edit on 22/11/06 by Atomic]



posted on Nov, 23 2006 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

That's just being silly. Their dress is perfectly acceptable. It identifies them, instills authority and helps you to pick them out of a crowd.

As for the fear factor, I can only say that is your own personal psyche at work. Most people do not live in such a constant state of fear.


Wow, I mean just wow! Cat are you kidding me or what? I dont fear the police, I dont even get tickets for speeding, I carry a badge. YOU need to fear the police, I am warning people like YOU. I work with these guys all the time, heck just the other day I took Incident Command during a car-fire, at that point I give the police orders.


If police dressed like the illustration does not make you think, hmmm now why would they dress like that, is it to have identiy and authority? Or to make you afraid of them? Its not my psyche at work, its reality. I have a free pass. You dont.

[edit on 23-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]



posted on Nov, 24 2006 @ 06:21 AM
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Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Wow, I mean just wow! Cat are you kidding me or what? I dont fear the police, I dont even get tickets for speeding, I carry a badge. YOU need to fear the police, I am warning people like YOU. I work with these guys all the time, heck just the other day I took Incident Command during a car-fire, at that point I give the police orders.

I'll try to remember that the next time I socialize with one of them.


If police dressed like the illustration does not make you think, hmmm now why would they dress like that, is it to have identiy and authority? Or to make you afraid of them? Its not my psyche at work, its reality. I have a free pass. You dont.

First of all, you have no idea what I "have" or don't have. Whatever I might "have", I certainly wouldn't blab about it here.

But more importantly, maybe I'm missing something. What illustration are you referring to? Everything an officer does is designed to instill a sense of authority. You interpret it as fear. That will happen with a certain percentage of the population, I suppose.



posted on Nov, 24 2006 @ 06:55 AM
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A pitty the video is not on anymore. :F

All i can say is that i had a very similar incident once and i can perfectly imagine how that guy felt from what i was able to read. He was absolutely no threat to them, so clearly their behavior has to be interpreted as abuse of power. Period.

It is our right to "test" our authorities. Because if we don't do it, even with ridiculously screaming around for instance, no one else will do it. So many people talking about protection and security.

But who protects us from authorities? Who protects us from our government?

It's crazy the people still are in favor of the cops in times where you can perfectly see the true threat and fascist face.. in the united states of america.

Shouting is no crime. Many people in here refer to "law".. Law which only applies to regular people but not the authorities or leaders.

If the cops were efficiently assigned to eliminate the true problems this would not happen in first place. They would not have the time for such pointless abuse of power and intimidation/humiliation.

Cops are human beings like all the rest of us with all of the flaws. We need to be protected. And not them.. Many cops are actually afraid of getting hurt. "Oh, wait.. if i really try to bust some true thugs, i could get heart.. let's just have a nice time and humiliate someone to waste time." Because while humiliating defenseless and righteous citizens they cant be shot or stabbed.

Think about it..



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by osram
All i can say is that i had a very similar incident once and i can perfectly imagine how that guy felt from what i was able to read. He was absolutely no threat to them, so clearly their behavior has to be interpreted as abuse of power. Period.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? Visitors to the library are required to present ID after 11PM. He either could not or would not.

Why couldn't/wouldn't he? Is it because he had mischief on his mind? We don't know, so how can you determine that he is no threat?


It is our right to "test" our authorities. Because if we don't do it, even with ridiculously screaming around for instance, no one else will do it. So many people talking about protection and security.

"Right to test our authorities?" Do you mean, create a situation that they need to respond to, and judge their reaction based upoun your predetermined idea of what is right? All you are doing is wasting resources and creating a potentially hazardous situation from some onlooker who decides to get involved.


It's crazy the people still are in favor of the cops in times where you can perfectly see the true threat and fascist face.. in the united states of america.

Next time you get mugged, call the hothead screamer then.


Shouting is no crime. Many people in here refer to "law".. Law which only applies to regular people but not the authorities or leaders.

Shouting can most certainly be called a crime, when it is done at an inappropriate time. It's called disturbing the peace.


If the cops were efficiently assigned to eliminate the true problems this would not happen in first place. They would not have the time for such pointless abuse of power and intimidation/humiliation.

Cops are not required to eliminate problems and make everything right. They don't have the time or the resources. They are there to establish and restore order.


Cops are human beings like all the rest of us with all of the flaws. We need to be protected. And not them.. Many cops are actually afraid of getting hurt. "Oh, wait.. if i really try to bust some true thugs, i could get heart.. let's just have a nice time and humiliate someone to waste time." Because while humiliating defenseless and righteous citizens they cant be shot or stabbed.

What a load of crap. Cops go through more humiliation and life-threatening situations in a single month than most people go through in a lifetime. And so what if they are "afraid of getting hurt"? What a stupid statement. Ever have to wrestle down an HIV positive crack addict who is trying to scractch, bite, and spit on you?


Think about it..

I don't think you have thought about it.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
How do you arrive at this conclusion? Visitors to the library are required to present ID after 11PM. He either could not or would not.

Why couldn't/wouldn't he? Is it because he had mischief on his mind? We don't know, so how can you determine that he is no threat?


How i arrive at this conclusion? I had a very similar incident after being badly hurt. I won't get into this personal matter too deeply, but I challenged their way of handling a completely non-dangerous situation.

I know what they did, what they wrote in the resulting report in a completely uncorrect manner. Without ANY factual information regarding CAUSE and EFFECT.

Well.. it's pretty hard to be a threat when being handcuffed, right? Without weapons and such.. what could possibly happen? A punch in the face? Come on; get real. I suppose a handcuffed backward 180 degree punch in the face from an max. 80 kg teenager is a REAL vital threat.

We cannot determine if he was no threat at all.. but we can determine that he was no PHYSICAL threat for 100%. You just fail to realize that "guilty unless prooved" is complete horse#. Use common sense.. forget your blurred opinions.



"Right to test our authorities?" Do you mean, create a situation that they need to respond to, and judge their reaction based upoun your predetermined idea of what is right? All you are doing is wasting resources and creating a potentially hazardous situation from some onlooker who decides to get involved.


It doesn't necessary have to do with "creating" a situation. After all it's the cops who create the situation in first place; By deciding whom to ask for an ID, and whom not.
Or by the arrival at some already given escalation.. to "help" you. (Which most people can admittely say, happens very rarely.)

And after all they have the power. That's what you fail to realize. That's why it is called "abuse of power". They decide. They take the most important decisions and actions. The citizen without uniform has not much to decide, apart from screaming or not. Screaming for help is no offense, it's no crime. It is simply a signal that something might be going WRONG.

So what you suggest is no control at all. I guess that's the way politicians, superiors, authorities and the administration would approach a problem:
Not doing anything at all.



Shouting can most certainly be called a crime, when it is done at an inappropriate time. It's called disturbing the peace.


PEACE! Hilarious
I am argueing with someone who talks about "disturbing the peace."



Cops are not required to eliminate problems and make everything right. They don't have the time or the resources. They are there to establish and restore order.


Well i suppose they are here to make everything wrong, then. Nice approach to improvements.. Actually they restore everything which is going wrong in this world.
I would rather describe it as restoring supression and unrighteousness.



What a load of crap. Cops go through more humiliation and life-threatening situations in a single month than most people go through in a lifetime. And so what if they are "afraid of getting hurt"? What a stupid statement. Ever have to wrestle down an HIV positive crack addict who is trying to scractch, bite, and spit on you?


Errr. point 1. Humiliation: No.. Point 2: Life-threatening situations: Yes.
It's their job. Other people work with excrements all day long. And they chose to be cops. No one forced them to become a cop.

What a splendid comparation
They have to wrestle down HIV-Positive Crackheads.. but @ the Universities library they shoot down defenseless students with Tazer-Guns.


I don't think you have thought about it.


I dont think you will ever be able to think properly about anything fundamental at all.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 08:13 AM
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Originally posted by osram
How i arrive at this conclusion? I had a very similar incident after being badly hurt. I won't get into this personal matter too deeply, but I challenged their way of handling a completely non-dangerous situation.

Ahhh.... so that makes you an expert on this situation. Now I understand.



We cannot determine if he was no threat at all.. but we can determine that he was no PHYSICAL threat for 100%. You just fail to realize that "guilty unless prooved" is complete horse#. Use common sense.. forget your blurred opinions.

He was totally out of control before he was tased or cuffed. He was acting like a child, screaming at the top of his lungs. So your statement about not being a physical threat is wrong. That had not yet been determined.

And you fail to answer why he did not show them his ID.


It doesn't necessary have to do with "creating" a situation. After all it's the cops who create the situation in first place; By deciding whom to ask for an ID, and whom not.

No, once again you are wrong. He could have avoided this entire scenario by showing them his ID, instead of acting like a churlish little boy. Why didn't he?


And after all they have the power. That's what you fail to realize. That's why it is called "abuse of power".

No, that's what you and the little boy don't want to face. You want to take out your frustrations of feeling that you have no control of your life by acting tough to the cops.


The citizen without uniform has not much to decide, apart from screaming or not. Screaming for help is no offense, it's no crime. It is simply a signal that something might be going WRONG.

You omit the most adult decision: to co-operate with their valid request for ID.


So what you suggest is no control at all.

No, what you suggest is no rules. Anarchy.



Shouting can most certainly be called a crime, when it is done at an inappropriate time. It's called disturbing the peace.



PEACE! Hilarious
I am argueing with someone who talks about "disturbing the peace."

Yes you are. I just shot down your false argument that shouting is not a crime.



Cops are not required to eliminate problems and make everything right. They don't have the time or the resources. They are there to establish and restore order.



Well i suppose they are here to make everything wrong, then. Nice approach to improvements..

Taking a statement and claiming that it's inverse must be true is the mark of ignorance.


Errr. point 1. Humiliation: No.. Point 2: Life-threatening situations: Yes.
It's their job. Other people work with excrements all day long. And they chose to be cops. No one forced them to become a cop.

How do you know that they do not experience humiliation? Are they not human beings?

And I'm glad that they chose their profession, which you have no respect for.


I dont think you will ever be able to think properly about anything fundamental at all.

Now now. No need to turn bitter just because you lost the argument.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 08:18 AM
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Please, let's try not to get personal about it.


That never leads anywhere good. :shk:

Let's confine our opinions to the topic and not each other.

Thanks.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:16 AM
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Okay, I'll chime in now.

Was there a physical threat to the officers? Did they try to handcuff him before tasering him, or did they taser then handcuff? This is a big issue.

But before that, there is a serious problem if they felt the need to check this person's ID if he had already showed his ID prior to entering. If he didn't, then there was a problem with security before this incident ever occured. IF he did, then why did they ask again?

I've had run ins with campus sceurity and campus police before. As a rule, I find them to be power hungry, and usually angry that they couldn't be the real thing. I've even seen a campus cop beat up and arrent an actor for reciting Shakespear on a street corner. So, I'm inclined to give the victim the benefit of the doubt on this one. Until I see otherwise, it's just another instance of police brutality.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Ahhh.... so that makes you an expert on this situation. Now I understand.



I never said I'm an expert.. It's you who uses lies as "argumentation".
Better having experience, than talking about something one does not know anything at all.



He was totally out of control before he was tased or cuffed. He was acting like a child, screaming at the top of his lungs. So your statement about not being a physical threat is wrong. That had not yet been determined.


As i said: I never saw the movie because it became unavaiable.

Someone posted: Giving a handcuffed teenager 20 secs time to stand up after being immobilized by a tazer and then tazering him again makes sense.

Once again; you inverse argumentations and facts. I stated that screaming is no physical threat. Whereas you still fail to prove that "sonic waves" (other than police-state martial law sonic blasters) can actually do any physical harm.

And at the same time you ask me to proove why shouting is no crime.. over and over again. What an ingenius tactic


Guess we should start and throw childish, screaming teenagers to nazi-american concentration camps right now. RUN JSOBECKY!!!



And you fail to answer why he did not show them his ID.


Why don't you go and ask him yourself? Why don't you show a police-officer the ID which you sadly forgot at home because of being in a rush @ morning?

jsobecky is perfect as a human individual, military/policestate fanatic, and us-citizen of incredibly astonishing intelligence. You never forget anything, do you?



No, once again you are wrong. He could have avoided this entire scenario by showing them his ID, instead of acting like a churlish little boy. Why didn't he?


Same argumentation as in the good old nazi-era: You can avoid an entire scenario by going straight to the gas chambre.

Thanks for your information, but i do not tend to cooperate with abusive, disrespectful or otherwise wrong individuals. Wheter they wear uniforms, or not.

Are you into submissive Hardcore Bondage and all that stuff? :f



No, that's what you and the little boy don't want to face. You want to take out your frustrations of feeling that you have no control of your life by acting tough to the cops.


I respect life. I respect every individual; Except for those who don't know anything about respect or don't give a damn about others. In such cases one has to stand up and defend himself. Unless you're a wimp.

Comparing me to a "little boy" just because i showed a little bit of my personal "privacy" won't make you win this argument. Guess what.. i value the work of police (at least in Switzerland - as long it is good work) and i try to treat every individual from a fresh point of view. Because there are always good and bad people.

Are you surprised? Or did this tear your restricted perception of people apart?




You omit the most adult decision: to co-operate with their valid request for ID.


Sieg Heil! (Notice that being "adult" does not protect from ignorance.)



No, what you suggest is no rules. Anarchy.


What i said was: Rules would be important to independently control the authorities which control US.

You suggest that the only laws and rules should be given by a lobby-controlled administration. We can perfectly see where this leads to right now.

FYI: Martial Law = Anarchy.

I never mentioned anything about anarchy. You are the one uttering senseless, inverse arguments and depicting me as some kind of left-wing/socialist/anarcho.. which i certainly am not.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by osram]



(Mod note: Warning issued. Please see my previous post. Do not continue to make personal attacks against other members or ignore my requests to stay on topic. --Majic)

[edit on 11/27/2006 by Majic]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:41 AM
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Yes you are. I just shot down your false argument that shouting is not a crime.


Is that american english? I suggest you shoot something else.



Taking a statement and claiming that it's inverse must be true is the mark of ignorance.


Word. Maybe you should actually read what you write.. before posting anything at all.



How do you know that they do not experience humiliation? Are they not human beings?


Sure they do, and i state that i value respect alot.. unlike you who prooves himself being a disrespectful ignorant. Deny ignorance.. remember?

I only answered with a "No" because I guess they also have nice moments in their job. They are not being humiliated constantly. Sometimes they get thanked for what they did on some occasions? It's not them who needs to be defended.. It's us.

After all they chose a special job and they are expected to fulfill their duties in a honorable way.

Occasional humiliation does not excuse any morally inacceptable behavior or actions.



And I'm glad that they chose their profession, which you have no respect for.


Once again, you use lies and reverse argumentation. You have no respect for the defense of a teenager or what other people might feel or think.. but you accuse me of not being respectful towards a whole profession?

You don't know me at all. I am respectful towards people who respect me, and merit to be respected.


I dont think you will ever be able to think properly about anything fundamental at all.


Now now. No need to turn bitter just because you lost the argument.


Heh.. i guess some quick and wimpy lieing, inverse argumentation.. concluding with a "No need to turn bitter just because you lost the argument." at the end makes you win an argument?

Not really. This is ATS, not Politics or what ever happens in the USA right now.
Around here luckily short-term quicky lies to achieve selfish and ignorant goals won't work.

I wish you good luck prooving that shouting/screaming is physically harmful (apart from bad breath).. whereas tazering actually kills people.

Ah yes: and i really hate to defend myself against lies or reverse quoting. It's annoying.. and prooves lack of character/skill. (Apart from rather harming than contributing anything at all.)

Next time you might answer/proove questions which you encounter in an argumentation.. instead of ignoring them and asking for completely irrelevant "proofs" which are clear to sane common sense anyway.



(Mod note: Warning issued. See above. --Majic)

[edit on 11/27/2006 by Majic]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:54 AM
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Personally, I don't respect a position, I respect people. If a person in a specific position shows me that they don't deserve my respect, I won't give it to them. Respect isn't automatically earned by a badge.

Those holding the badge know this. That's why they try to either earn the respect of people, or instill fear through the badge. Fear is the easy route, and thus the way most tend to go. If they were had respected the individual, rather than trying to instill fear in him, maybe they wouldn't have had to bring out the weapons so soon.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:46 PM
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Someone in a recent post said they could not comment because the video had been removed. FYI, it is still available here:
www.prisonplanet.com...


Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Personally, I don't respect a position, I respect people. If a person in a specific position shows me that they don't deserve my respect, I won't give it to them. Respect isn't automatically earned by a badge.

Those holding the badge know this. That's why they try to either earn the respect of people, or instill fear through the badge. Fear is the easy route, and thus the way most tend to go. If they were had respected the individual, rather than trying to instill fear in him, maybe they wouldn't have had to bring out the weapons so soon.

You're quite right, a position does not automatically merit respect. But it tends to make me empathize with them, and also tempers my reaction because I might know which buttons, being pushed, will make them react in a certain way. Challenging their authority will almost always bring an adverse reaction.

Don't take this as a sign of submission or kowtowing. It is merely an acknowledgement that the way they perceive your reaction goes a long way toward the way they treat you. It's not fear, as you characterize it. There is very little time to earn respect in a volatile situation; so I don't subscribe to that notion in a situation like this. From what I've seen (and heard) of the video, the person that was tased did nothing to earn anyone's respect. It's not a one-sided deal. He has a responsibility to act in a co-operative manner as much as the police do.



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 10:04 PM
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Thx for the video-link but what a surprise: I did not need to see the video before knowing that we have an evident case of abuse.


Originally posted by jsobecky
He has a responsibility to act in a co-operative manner as much as the police do.


Well cooperation also involves to be willing to speak out a problem, if there is a possibility to solve a problem through communication. And the police apparently doesn't care at all about their responsibility to cooperate (aka work) with non-dangerous subjects.

And not: "Cooper... *tazer* .. Stand.. u..! *tazer*.. Cooperate and Stand up! *tazer*"

What you demand is called "Submission".

Btw: Did you notice how the policemen were trying to get him out of that crowded place as fast as possible? I am sure you are going to tell me that they wanted to get him out of there to a better place without any witnesses to demonstrate him more of their excelling communication skills.

Or maybe they felt especially comfortable in the crowd having done such a well-acomplished job on that day.

One day.. when the economy collapses and people finally start to realize what's happening.. and they begin to defend themselves. You will finally realize what all of this is coming to and what it really means for every US-citizen. Collaborating or not.

At least i can be glad because I'm not the one living in america.. It's you guys.

Enjoy the party!

Hopefully this time it was not too offensive for anyone.
I love you guys very much.


And i also wish you wonderful holidays which i am sure you have definately merited alot.



posted on Nov, 29 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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I do not wish for submission. I want co-operation whenever it is possible.

But anyway, osram, we love you too, and wish you a very happy holiday season also.



posted on Nov, 29 2006 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by Majic


It is possible to question the way the police handled this case without being a cop hater, yobbo or bomb-throwing anarchist.



You mean like this?



I for one sir work with them nearly everyday, I do not hate them; I fear them as you should too. You wouldnt believe what they think of citizens...

They are not the cops we used to have, some are but too many have become miltary crazed and very heavy in the badge area...
[edit on 21-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]


OKay I have a couple issues with your post. Your lumping all cops into one group. I will not defend the entire group of this or any profession. But for the majority police officers are of good moral character and are doing their job to help their community. Granted many of them have gotten jaded, hard to avoid after a few years on the job.

When you say you "wouldn't believe what they think of citizens" .. your indicating conversations that they had with you or around you, because they felt comfortable with you or because of your profession. A lot of these off-color comments are not appropriate around the general public but they serve a purpose when dealing with tough issues of how mankind treats each other. This type of job can wear people down as it is and people have all kinds of coping mechanisms to prevent their psyche.

You talk about the cops being "badge heavy" ... but a few posts later your talking about getting out of speeding tickets by flashing a badge. Why not leave your badge in the center console and let the officer decide whether or not to give you a ticket without throwing your profession into the mix?

Police officers do, unfortunately, tend to have a different outlook on society and life than most people. Do you go to work everyday and worry if you'll come home not because of some accident but because someone tried (and might suceed) in killing you? Have you rolled on the ground with a violent criminal who isn't trying to flee but is rather trying to overpower you in order to harm you? Have you gone to a friends/colleagues funeral because some criminal shot them several times?Have you had to go to crime scenes and see how people mistreat each other? Have you been in situations where you had to take infants and children away from their parents, out of an abusive/neglectful situation?

If you think these situations are only for large cities and not most of the US then unfortunately your wrong. These situations, day after day are what wear down an officers psyche and can make them start to think that the majority of the world is going down the tubes. When you interact with mostly the bad elements of society your world view starts to turn. I guess it's a down side to their job.

I'm not justifying what these particular officers did ... I hope they were within policy. I would also have issues with giving an ID while sitting in a library and can understand why this person was irrated at such a request. But let's not lump all "cops" into this classification of hating citizens and we should fear them.



posted on Nov, 29 2006 @ 11:08 PM
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Edit: Sorry if any law enforcement officers have read this. I was angry.


[edit on 30-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]



posted on Nov, 29 2006 @ 11:21 PM
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Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas


You talk about the cops being "badge heavy" ... but a few posts later your talking about getting out of speeding tickets by flashing a badge. Why not leave your badge in the center console and let the officer decide whether or not to give you a ticket without throwing your profession into the mix?



I am emergency vehicle certified.

I have to cut up cars to get people out.

I know what happens when someone makes a mistake driving, so dont you tell me until you put on turnout gear and cut someones dead loved one out of a car. When I flash my badge, it is so they know I am not someone BSing their way out of a ticket, but that I truely was just making a mistake and not breaking the law on purpose.

They know, that I know what kind of trouble I get into if I cause an accident, whether I am driving an apperatus or the family car. We re held to a higher standard and most police understand that when I say I am sorry I didnt know I was speeding, they know its the truth.

Edit to say: I dont speed unless I am running code, with overheads and siren. Unless my wife is yelling at me, that tends to make me push down on the pedal. :shk:



[edit on 30-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]



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