Great Britain In The Grip Of Madness.

Well, here's my view on this.

Forced treatment does not work!

You can't make a person quit drugs. He or she has to quit for themselves.

I've gone over my beliefs pretty thoroughly.


I too tire of this discussion as I am not trying to convince anyone that i am correct, I am merely stating my opinion. Frankly I know that I am an extremist and I am quite comfortable with that.

If you disagree with me I am fine with that. Please take no offense that I don't care that your OPINION is different from mine.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
SS, Something I forgot to mention, in the UK more people die from so called legal drugs, more people are dependant on them, more crime is associated with legal drugs and more money is made from them than all the illegal drugs put together. More people die from Parcetomol overdoses but they havent banned them have they.

Tried paracetomol when I was 22, mixed with 6% proof beer, trust me you need to take more than 20, as of now the bottles contain I think 12 or 16 and you are not allowed or supposed to be able to buy two bottles at the same time from a retailer, cannot be sure, never bought them since.

Paracetomol are drugs to be bought to ease pain such as headaches, muscle pain etc, not drugs where you have to steal from someone to get the money for herion and such for a quick fix, btw I don't know anyone who has had a quick fix off paracetomol.

Wolfie



[edit on 14/11/06 by Wolfie_UK]

Not sure I would want to be forced off heroin cold turkey without good reason. Most people would be crawling up the walls and then trying to jump off them I'd think. Maybe the government needs to look at more humane ways of doing things if it wants to intervene in these kinds of problems.

What tripe people talk here on this forum sometimes.

I have been away for a while and a lot of changes have happened here in the uk.
gun crime is up, there has been 3 shootings around here in the last week alone. One man was killed, one was shot in the hand and a police officer was shot.

People on here are going back to the old Blame the "government" saying that arises alot on ATS. I am not saying that I back our government in alot of things they do, but I dont see Tony Blair going around handing out drugs to these people either.

Give all our police officers guns, and let them do there job without all the political red tape. Go back to execution and get rid of all the evil in this country. Give tougher longer jail terms for petty crimes and dont let the criminals progress upwards in the crimes they commit, Nip it in the bud as early as possible. for more serious crimes send the criminals off to the army with a minimum term they HAVE to serv and this might make these criminals think twice about there actions before they carry out there crime.

I am so sick and tired of all the do gooders they really make me sick. If you are a criminal face up to your actions and take your punishment and deal with it, It is as simple as that.

Drug addiction is an illness and needs to be treated as such.
A punitive approach does not work, the focus shift to intensive rehabilitation.
I dont believe addicts should be kept in mainstream corrections.

Society must move beyond labels and become responsible.
The litigation illustrates the failings of correctional services and that is in part an extension of the attitude towards addicts in society. Wake up!

You say society has to become responsible, what about personal accountabilty? I mean shouldn't there be a certain amount of responsibility of the junkie to fix his own problem? And if a junkie does a crime are you saying he should go to a nice rehab as opposed to a penal facility?

This is the biggest form of GREED out there.
And its not just England, its America Australia, everywhere.

people know now that they can use lawyers to twist the blurred laws and become rich.

If I was a judge it would be simply.

You are in prison because you have no rights.
You have no rights becuase you went agsint the laws of our people.
There fore you have not abililty in the eyes of justice to demand your rights be given.

If you committ a crime, and are thrown in Jail, you have no rights.

Its like the story where the burglar injured himself while robbing a house...

The LAW needs a major rule put in position number 1.

COMMON SENSE!

You were breaking the law, by entering this mans house.
Anything you did AFTER this act, is MUTE because you now have NO RIGHTS being you ignored the RIGHTS OF THE VICTIM.
There fore, you will be given NOTHING!

Greed, the greatest SIN of all.

I hear that a school in the USA has banned CHASEY/TAG or what ever you call it, because of fear that parents will seek litigation against the school when a child falls over and scrapes his knee.

This doesnt afll under the guise of lack of rights as stated above..
but theyre CHILDEREN for christ sakes.
your meant to fall over and scrape your knee.

I did a thousand times, I broke bones, i got stitches I had fun as a child and learnt from every mistake.

IF I hadda of sued every school or factility where I injured myself on my own stupidity or through accident, imagine the adult id of grown up to be.

ITs not the citizens faults, its the laws fault for allowing these people to maniuplate the system.

Originally posted by TheNockerNox
I hope that you are not suggesting that people who go out 'on a drunken bender' and violently abuse others who are minding there own business, should be let off just because it's 'only beer talking'.

Theres a difference between slapping them in jail and slotting them.

When I go out for a drink, I don't like having to worry about my safety, having to watch my back just in case there's a druggy after my cash for there next fix; or some youth wasted on alco-pop who cant take it who's spoiling for a scrap.

Glad you feel so safe, unfortuantly I dont at night.

Harsh penalties and punishments do not stop or prevent crime. Society as a whole is repsonsible for the actions of the individual, society expects individuals to be resposible, those who fail to do so are punished, but no one should loose their rights because they have broken the rules.

Why would we want to arm all our Police, what so they could kill more innocent people. Violence beggets violence, one needs to look at the failings of society and address the issues that cause crime to occur in the first place.

I will admit that I read the entire article, but not every post in this thread. It only took a browsing of the first page to gauge the overall response to this article. Normally I would be considered a conservative- especially when it comes to the criminal justice system. However, in this case, I am actually torn.

If anyone here has ever been addicted to opiates such as heroin or Oxycontin, then you would know the pure HELL and TORTURE that going "cold turkey" is. You would literally prefer death over it. If these prisoners are on Methadone then it means they have quit using heroin and/or other opiates. It means they are being prescribed Methadone under the direct supervision of a doctor, often having a single dose dispensed to them and taking it in front of a nurse on a daily basis so that there is no chance for abuse. Regardless of your opinion of Methadone, these people are at the very least heading in the right direction by giving up illegal drugs.

A lot of experts say that addiction to drugs and alcohol is a disease. So if we are to refuse medicine for this disease to inmates, is that any different than refusing medication to inmates for any other disease? I could just as easily blame an inmate for contracting HIV AIDS from having unprotected sex with a stranger. Should we then refuse him medication because of it? Should we refuse the obese inmate medication for his heart disease because he/she chose a life of fast food and no exercise?

It is just my opinion that these folks, the inmates who were taking methadone before their incarceration, should be weaned (sp?) off of it in a reasonable manner and under the supervision of a doctor who actually works in the field of addiction. I think its completely unfair that we would intentionally cause someone to go through the torture of "cold turkey", regardless of their crimes, just because they are "criminals." They're human beings. The judge didn't sentence them to the Hell of Methadone withdrawl at their hearing. I think refusing them their medication amounts to cruel and unusual punishment. Refusing them their Methadone also creates an atmosphere of potential violence. We've seen what drug addicts will do when they're going through withdrawl just to get a fix. Here we are trying to REHABILITATE those who have committed crimes. The last thing we need is some drug-crazed addict cutting a guard's throat in an attempt to escape and get high. We must also take into account that treating prisoners this way will cause ill-will and lay the groundwork for future trouble-making. Whereas, if we treat them with civility and gradually lower their methadone dose so as to decrease their level of withdrawl, they will be much better behaved prisoners.

I will say that this is probably the most liberal I have ever been on a subject- especially one which I've posted about on here. And I will also add that I completely understand and empathise with the arguments of those who are against providing Methadone to inmates. I agree that some of these prisoners- especially the murderers and the rapists- don't deserve it. But we can't get into a situation where we begin to decide which criminals deserve this medication and which don't.

I'll give one example in closing. Suppose a physician is sent to prison for a couple of years for something along the lines of tax fraud- a relatively victimless crime (and please let's not start an argument about tax fraud not being a victimless crime LOL). Let's say this doctor for one reason or another became addicted to opiates in recent years. In an attempt to better himself and to escape the clutches of drug addiction, he entered a rehab facility and was prescribed methadone. A few weeks or months, still clean and not using drugs, he is arrested and eventually found guilty for his tax crimes (or any other generic, white collar, victimless crime which can be used for this hypothetical situation) and sentenced to time in prison. In addition to the sentence of time in prison, away from his family and friends, away from his career, having to pay a lot in restitution, etc.... he will now in ADDITION face the sentence of COLD TURKEY! A sentence that doesn't fall under the sentencing guidelines and a sentence that wasn't given by his judge. Are you telling me that this man, who was doing his personal best to quit drugs without going through the hell of withdrawl, should now spend the first month of his incarceration hugging the toilet of his prison cell, sweating and crying and in constant agony? Just because he skipped paying his taxes one year? Are we THAT barbaric of a society? How can we be so sympathetic to the supposedly law-abiding addict in recovery, yet so cruel to the convicted addict- even regardless of his crime(s) or past history?

Hopefully through all of this rambling I have, at the very least, displayed my argument well-enough for those to understand where it is I'm coming from. Let me also add, for those who probably are already wondering and/or assuming, I am NOT a drug addict! I have, however, seen the horrors of addiction countless times firsthand through family and friends. Battling addiction is punishment enough- even when on a prescription such as Methadone. Being sentenced to prison for a crime is often punishment enough. Does it really serve any purpose, making these people suffer in pain and agony for days, weeks or even a month? If so, then maybe it's time we re-introduce torture into our criminal justice system. Because it's not fair that we only make the drug addicted convicts feel pain- all convicts should be treated the same way!

PS- I'm an American. And as far as I understand, our prisons DO NOT administer things like methadone to its inmates. If you're thrown in jail you're pretty much screwed. At least Britain is more civilized in this matter, or will be in the future.

This I feel very strongly about. The war on drugs is a war on human rights. The DSM has recognized addiction as a medical problem for 50 years, but because the demoralized and addicted make easy targets for politicians, and are widely hated by every wounded co-dependent - they fill the jails instead of treatment centers.

Opium production has gone up 50% since the war in Afghanistan and near none of it is making it into the mainstream legal market. Opium and coc aine are a major source of funding for spy agencies around the world and provide the contacts and the money required for underground activities. Private interests and governments are getting rich and maintaining their power with the illegal drug trade and the only people paying for it are your mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters.

Moreover, addiction is society's disease. It is reflected in everything from the rampant psychological assault inherent in manipulating peoples minds for the purpose of cosumerism to the hen-pecked and fear-ridden structure of competitive living. Everybody's addicted to something, they just don't know it yet and they don't want to find out. Sobriety is a state of balance, this is not a sober world.

Nixon needed a platform other than the con job he was to pull on Vietnam. He decided on the war on crime. Of course white collar crime wouldn't do - so he settled on a scapegoat everyone would feel confident kicking around.

Those addicts in prison were stripped of their human rights. Just like they are stripping us all of simple personal liberties one at a time. The government has no right to wage war on sick people. A war on addiction would have them in treatment centers where they would be given real social and economic opportunities and an opportunity to truly change their lives. Failing that, giving addicts the drugs they need to live enables them to pursue jobs and productive lives. In countries where addiction is not criminalized and addicts are given their drugs, the recovery rate is much higher and the social problem much less toxic.

The war on drugs is a war on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. What say we throw all the cancer patients in jail because they don't get better, they're giving the chemical and car industries a bad name.

I dont think they ought to be given turkey in prison except maybe at Christmas and certainly they shouldnt be allowed any drugs. I thought there would be strict rules about that since drugs are illegal.

Wow, we are indeed in the grip of madness. I never thought I would see so many extreme views on ATS, it wouldn't look out of place on a Daily Mail forum.

Seriously guys! This is the real madness that is taking hold. Give guns to the police officers?! Kill a heroin addict if he's convicted three times!? Remove all rights to prisoners? What the hell have we become? We live in a democracy, and now you want to throw that all away? Does human life somehow decrease in value because you put an illicit substance into it? Oh, maybe it's a better way to cull the poor people yes? Of course! It's so clear now. If they ever take any drug that enables them to briefly escape their squalid surroundings and wretched despair, we should defintely kill them.

Those prisoner's rights were abused. End of story.

I think that they are letting it happen.
So people get so sick of it
That they will let new laws be past,
So they have greater control.
Every body is so sick of criminals
They will go with all most any thing.
A bit like what they are doing with terrorists.
Make them angry & you have a lynch mob!

What alot of people don't seem to realise is that THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!!

I spent a fair portion of my life around heroin addicts and consequentially spent a smaller fraction of my life in "cold turkey". (Heroin withdrawal is pretty much one of the most unpleasant things i've ever gone through but at no point did i fear for my life)

At least half of these addict " friends" relied on crime to support their habit and unsurprisingly most of those ended up in prison at some point. Of at least 20 cases I can relate, I only know of one where they were given any treatment in jail within a week (by which time you're through the worst).

I should be on the other side of the fence but I think these guys are jokers, £4000 for a bit of "clucking"?

As somone pointed out, you make the decision (for whatever reason) to take smack knowing full well it is illegal. If you then make the decision to commit crime then don't be surprised when you end up in jail with unsympathetic doctors and guards. I really can't see this as a violation of human rights when you bring it on yourself from so many different angles.

Get over it, you never know you may stay clean when you get out.

As a side note I think heroin should be decriminalised, but that's another thread

I find this thread a relevant one.....however....many of the reactions I see are of inconsequence...too many statements that attempt to apply a universal to an event.....

I hate to recommend a movie as a means for perspective....however...in this thread....

"Reefer Madness"

Directed by Andy Fickman
Starring Christian Cambell, Kristen Bell, Alan Cumming, etc.

A brilliant satire/musical...

I hate to sound like an advertisement...and believe me, I hate it....

But the movie in question is well worth the perspective....

Well, if that's your logic then I don't want our government paying money towards heart disease medication for the grossly obese. I don't want them paying for HIV medicine for the sexually indiscriminate. I don't want them paying for the physical therapy for that guy who was paralyzed when sky diving. I mean, they did all bring it on themselves, right? Maybe not as severe a case as abusing drugs, but who gets to decide which is legitimate and which is not so? And should we even have people making such decisions, especially when related to human life and human suffering?

And in case anyone misread my original post or just didn't want to waste their time reading it all, my argument was not to give every heroin addict that walks in the door some ILLEGAL DRUGS! My belief was that those who are drug addicts, and have previously made the choice to seek recovery and are currently being prescribed METHADONE, should be WEANED off of it in prison- in a dignified and medically-supervised manner. Obviously it must be confirmed that the inmate is currently in a methadone program, which is quickly and easily able to do. If he's i a program and he is legitimately being prescribed a medication on a daily basis by a real-life PHYSICIAN, then who are we to strip him outright of that? Especially when the results are horrific.

It's not like we're even talking about some huge burdon on the tax base. Methadone has been around since the Nazi's ran out of morphine in World War II. It's cheap, easy to prescribe, and easy to take. It's simple to lower the patient's dose in a humane and relatively quick amount of time. I really don't see any major downside here. I mean, if a patient doesn't deserve his medication (and only for a short time to be gradually taken off it) and he has a legitimate disease that is recognized by most or all major medical associations and groups, then we must treat all criminals the same way regardless of their medication or disease. We shouldn't get to decide if one disease is more deserving of medication than another. And if we are denying a few prisoners this simple right, then why stop there? Maybe they don't deserve blankets and pillows, or even beds! Maybe we should stack them 20 deep into a 10'x10' cell! And what's the deal with us FEEDING them?!?!?!? Wouldn't a scoup of wet dog food and a cup of water once a day make more sense? All of these things would probably end up saving us money. And, after all, they are criminals so they deserve to be punished and not have such luxuries. Just like taking drugs, they chose to commit a crime so why do they deserve anything better than what a dog in the homeless shelter gets? I mean, that is a lot of you folks' argument, right?

I think our nations have enough trouble with the inmate situation. Why cause anymore resentment between the prisoners and their guards and government, especially when it can be easily and humanely avoided!

Glad you feel so safe, unfortuantly I dont at night.

That's just my point, I DON'T feel safe when I or my family go out, day or night and it shouldn't be like that.

Nox


[edit on 15-11-2006 by TheNockerNox]

frivolous lawsuits are an everyday occourance here in the US

robber sues homeowner becasue homeowner injures him in order to protect his home
woman sues mcdonalds because she spilled it on her lap and didnt know it was going to be hot