Great Britain In The Grip Of Madness.

I understand Shadowflux,
I would never support the wiping out of a whole group.This is fascist madness.
I should try to be more tolerant.
But there will never come a time when I would let anyone break into my house and steal things for their addiction.Prison threat or no,I will not allow it.
Maybe thats another discussion...

Master Jedi,
At the same time,while trying to become tolerant-I still see the conundrum you describe.
Like I said before,that stuff takes a part of your soul,and some persistent re offenders do seem past the point of redemption.

You keep saying that I advocate killing them all, when I clearly state that they should have the option of redeeming themselves. Just not without limits. It may be harsh to say strike three and you are out, but without a cap in place, they may continue this rollercoaster indefinitely. That is unacceptable to me.

So don't kill them all... just those that refuse to try to quit... =)

MasterJ
Thats a tough approach,considering what you said before about some of your family.
There has to come a point i would agree,where enough is enough-One of my best mates descended into a different drug problem than heroin,and he has unfortunately become a "write off" in my eyes.
I tried to help him,for about 6 years...but there came a time when I had to admit I could do nothing to help.
Horrible to have to say that to yourself,but hell we are all our own man/woman and we can`t make anyone else change a lot of the time.

Originally posted by Astyanax
That's your privilege, but it doesn't alter the fact that heroin users are also human beings. They have the same inalienable rights as the rest of us. Among these rights is the right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment by the State.

Obviously you've never watched someone go through heroin withdrawal. It's a terrifying experience. What it is like for the sufferer doesn't bear thinking about. Forcing someone to go through it involuntarily certainly constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.

Why shouldn't heroin addicts in withdrawal receive methadone in prison, when they can have it on prescription from the NHS as long as they're outside?

I abhor political correctness as much as the next free spirit. But have a little charity, for heaven's sake.

Amen!

Something else that people should factor in is that opiates can be so addictive that going "cold turkey" can be fatal. My father, who is a pharmicist with the V.A. has to keep small amounts of heroin and other opiates in stock so that if they treat an addict, they can ween them slowly off the drug, rather than simply taking them off it cold turkey, because in some situations, this can be fatal.

Yes, I agree that criminals should be punished, but I still believe they have rights as human beings, such as the right to a fair trial, the right to appeal, and the right to not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishments. Yes, they're paying their debt to society, but that doesn't mean we should advocate torture.

The fundamental question becomes, are we trying to help the criminal realize the error of their ways and become a better citizen, or are we trying to make ourselves feel better and morally superior to a criminal by debasing them?

I hope we're motivated by the first. I fear we are often motivated by the second.

Silcone,

I agree with you to some point. I don't think that we should let addicts commit crimes simply because they're addicts. I don't believe I've said anything to that nature.

But, according to the law, a punishment must fit a crime.

In the old days that meant that if you kill my cow, you have to give me a cow. If you burn down my house, you give me your house.

The punishment must be equal.

I will say in all honesty that if someone was breaking into my house I would exercise my rights to the fullest extent of the law. However, the act of breaking into my house is legally a completely seperate issue from their addiction. It is unlawful to sentence a criminal to a punishment not fitting the crime.

If they broke into your house they will be tried and punished for breaking into your house. The addiction should not be considered as evidence against them or brought in to justify an extreme punishment that is cruel and unusual.

Jedi,

Your arguments are continually illogical and unethical.

By what ruler do you measure the effort they put forth in trying to quit?

From what basis do you derive your right to decide who is unfit to live?

Are you really advocating the discontinuation of our right to a trial by jury and promoting the idea of summary executions?

I believe you don't really understand the ramifications of what you're saying and it scares me to think that there're people who think like you do working in detox centers and rehab clinics where you're responsible for the lives and well being of humans.

When I speak of mercy I don't speak of being soft, I speak of the mercy in your heart, the ability we're supposed to have to see the suffering of another human, feel it in ourselves and work to find a way to stop the suffering.

Shadowflux,this is my last post of the evening on this thread.
I`m off to post on a more light hearted thread.(although what I have learned here has been mind opening,for which I thank you and others)

by shadowflux

"When I speak of mercy I don't speak of being soft, I speak of the mercy in your heart, the ability we're supposed to have to see the suffering of another human, feel it in ourselves and work to find a way to stop the suffering.

Good words,and I thought I did usually.But you have proved I need to work on applying that to everyone,rather than my own chosen groups.
I`ll review this thread tomorrow,as it has been more fascinating than i imagined it would be.
Thank you one and all.

No I don't advocate no trials or summary executions. Please read my posts thoroughly. I said to begin with that it would be based on your 3rd felony conviction in drug related crimes. And that would serve as the ruler.

I am able to seperate my personal feelings and my work ethics. I no longer work with addicts, and my decision to leave was based on my disenchantment with the beliefs of rehabs effectiveness.

If someone truly wishes to quit they would. If they fear the withdrawals more than the fear of a continued wasteful existence then they CHOOSE to continue using. I have sympathy for those in the challenge of quitting, but have little mercy for those that fail, as it is a matter of will.

I know that my beliefs are extreme and I realize they would never be put into effect, but my intolerance of repeated offenders is justified in my eyes.

Master,

I dont mean to sound insulting but your plan sounds a bit of a heavy handed tactic in my opinion. Is that plan of yours part of a larger plan or is it a simple 3 strike rule?

Silcone,
You seem to be the "middle" party here, whats your idea on an effective detox plan?


Shadow,

Interesting idea on detox plan but theres one thing I have to point out, what about those addicts that would abuse the synthetic drug? Do we continue to allow them to continue or ?

Having read this thread, I recall some one showing sympathy for smackheads?

incensed mode on:

I don't have any sympathy for smackheads, let the B*x7 suffer - as much as possible.

Don't wast my tax contributions on them, the only thing I would like to see my tax spent on smackheads would be to fund there execution.

Try living next to a robbing, thieving, abusive piece of scum like a chav druggy and you WILL change your mind.

Don't try to re-hab them, it's not worth it; they are not human, at best there feral - calling them animals is an insult to animals. You can't re-educate them, they don't want it, all they want is more drugs and if they can't afford it they'll rob you or kill you for a few quid just to get more smack.

Removing them from the gene pool is THE ONLY option.

Nox

So nox I take it your saying you should have "removed" my friend , a serving merchanvt navy officer and ex army cadet instructor , from existance because he was an addict and not allow them to redeem themselves?

Of course there is a larger master plan in my egomaniacal mind. But trust me I recognize that I take an extreme view on this topic as well as most others.

But understand that I see the drug problem as similar to cancer... Treatment is important, but if ineffective, then cut it out =)

But I'm also a realist and know that MY ideal world will never be. So take my views for what they are, the off-key ramblings of an armchair dictator.

Ok, I just read the opening post and havent gone through the whole thread so bear with me. While these inmates should be forced to stop using, a drug like heroin is not something you should stop cold turkey, they need treatment and need to be weened off. Heroin is a powerfully addictive drug and to quit cold turkey sends your body into a shock after being fed that drug for so long and in large ammounts. I dont think their rights have been violated, but certainly you dont get off a drug like heroin cold turkey.

Originally posted by devilwasp
So nox I take it your saying you should have "removed" my friend , a serving merchanvt navy officer and ex army cadet instructor , from existance because he was an addict and not allow them to redeem themselves?

Your friend may well have an exemplary past, but what possible reason could some one with such a great past have for getting in to drugs?

Did he pay for the drugs himself with his own hard earned cash? or did he rob people and there houses to feed his habit?

Did he cause pain, distress and suffering to innocent people who just want to get on with there lives, who want to be able to come to come home after a hard days work and not find that there house has been trashed just so some smack head can get his next fix?

Did he abuse people who live near him?

Did he threaten there lives, or the lives of there wife, husband or threaten to orphan there children whilst he was 'off his head'?

Hmm.???

Nox

MasterJedi I must say I agree with your point of view more than anyone else's on this subject.

I obey government rules, well yes I do, in the sense I work for a living, pay my way and enjoy a nice way of life, don't get me wrong I'm working class in the UK.

My best friend when I was 17 died from a herion OD given to him by his girlfriend, she was already out off her face at the time, a house I was living in was robbed by our neighbours boyfriend because he needed to get money for drugs.

I'm sorry in but I see life in black and white, you choose to abide by the law and make the most of what you have or you break the law and make law abiding peoples life harder than it should be.

I have no time for criminals, whether granny bashers , druggies , any crime done by someone who has chosen to take the easy choice and feed off the hard working law abiding people of any country in the world.

An eye for an eye was mentioned earlier, hell yes and I would enforce that doctrine as savage as it may be.

I for one would gladly become the executioner if asked.







[edit on 14/11/06 by Wolfie_UK]

Originally posted by TheNockerNox
Your friend may well have an exemplary past, but what possible reason could some one with such a great past have for getting in to drugs?

Great past? This was after his drug incident.

Did he pay for the drugs himself with his own hard earned cash? or did he rob people and there houses to feed his habit?

Both then he paid it back.

Did he cause pain, distress and suffering to innocent people who just want to get on with there lives, who want to be able to come to come home after a hard days work and not find that there house has been trashed just so some smack head can get his next fix?

No he didnt go that far I'm afraid although he did steal from family.

Did he threaten there lives, or the lives of there wife, husband or threaten to orphan there children whilst he was 'off his head'?

No but how many drunks do the same every week? Every night?
Shall we "Erase" them from the gene pool or arrest them?
Hmm?

SS, People are in prison to deny them their right to freedom. And as Human beings they are entiltiled to whatever medical treatment they require, as inmates of the prisons they have rights just like we all have. If an individual is undergoing treatment to removw their dependance on drugs then the system is working. Just because someone is locked up does not mean they can be abused.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by TheNockerNox
Your friend may well have an exemplary past, but what possible reason could some one with such a great past have for getting in to drugs?

Great past? This was after his drug incident.

Did he pay for the drugs himself with his own hard earned cash? or did he rob people and there houses to feed his habit?

Both then he paid it back.

Did he cause pain, distress and suffering to innocent people who just want to get on with there lives, who want to be able to come to come home after a hard days work and not find that there house has been trashed just so some smack head can get his next fix?

No he didnt go that far I'm afraid although he did steal from family.

Did he threaten there lives, or the lives of there wife, husband or threaten to orphan there children whilst he was 'off his head'?

No but how many drunks do the same every week? Every night?
Shall we "Erase" them from the gene pool or arrest them?
Hmm?

I hope that you are not suggesting that people who go out 'on a drunken bender' and violently abuse others who are minding there own business, should be let off just because it's 'only beer talking'.

When I go out for a drink, I don't like having to worry about my safety, having to watch my back just in case there's a druggy after my cash for there next fix; or some youth wasted on alco-pop who cant take it who's spoiling for a scrap.

Nox





[edit on 14-11-2006 by TheNockerNox]

SS, Something I forgot to mention, in the UK more people die from so called legal drugs, more people are dependant on them, more crime is associated with legal drugs and more money is made from them than all the illegal drugs put together. More people die from Parcetomol overdoses but they havent banned them have they.

Shadow,
Interesting idea on detox plan but theres one thing I have to point out, what about those addicts that would abuse the synthetic drug? Do we continue to allow them to continue or ?

I see what you're saying Wasp, but these synthetic opiates are generally given in decreasing increments. They have detox plans that they use where the dosage gets smaller and smaller until they stop prescribing the pill all together.

There're also opiate inhibitors which render heroin almost ineffective.

There're also pills for alcoholsim like Antabuse (sp?) which will cause a violent reaction to any alcohol in the system.

Jedi,

I'm not going to argue with you anymore, I believe you have many pent up frustrations and nothing I say will ever really get through to you. Perhaps one day you'll come around and get over what ever it is that's bothering you.

Nox,

I've lived next to them. You're basing your opinions off of an external objective view point. Try having someone you care deeply for turn into an addict.

My statements and opinions are based in reality and covered in logic. I have a lot of work to do and I feel as though I've said all I can say on this subject.

The original debate was whether or not these inmates rights were violated. I believe they were.

Legally speaking a punishment has to fit the crime commited. If a prisoner is in jail for robbery or possession then the appropraite punishment is outlined by law. If an inmate is forced to both pay his debt in prison and suffer the torment of quitting cold turkey he has been subjected to both cruel and unusual punishment and a double punishment. Both are unlawful.

If the extent of an addict's detox agony could be fatal then it is most deffinitly cruel and unusual punishment.

To advocate the murder of those who have not warranted such treatment is immoral, inhuman, illogical, and illegal. I hope those that advocate this type of punishment are treated with the same mercy they give to others.

I'm going back to work.

MasterJedi, do I take it that you would support the punisments, meated out to criminals in Saudi Arabia and Iran. Should an Alcoholic who steals to feed is habit be executed as well, or maybe your next door neigbour because his dog craps on your lawn. Its easy to judge the weakness of others, maybe if you had a child who was an addict you would pull the trigger yourself after the 3 strikes. I do not codone the actions of some drug addicts but one has to remember once they are under the grip of these drugs they are not rational thinking people you and others seem to think they are. People who are sick require help not the death sentence.