Great Britain In The Grip Of Madness.

Astyanax,

Sorry if i was i little Hyped up.
You are right I do not like smackheads-
However,if someone with a drug problem addresses the issue and gets clean,fantasic...welcome back to reality.
If however the "smack head" in question continuously commits crimes such as aggravated burglary,muggings,terrorizing OAPS ,leaving disease ridden syringes in the street where kids can pick them up-then my sympathy for them evaporates very quickly indeed.
Sure,get treatment for them-but most won`t accept the treatment and will continue on their own one man crimewave.

I know I am biased(for a reason-many vunerable people in my society have been affected by drug crime.),and i know i may lack sympathy for these people-but good grief,of all the drugs in the UK Heroin is what causes the most crime.
And the government does not care.

(This could change when Meth takes off as the papers seem to think it will,but hell at least i`ll have something else to grumble about.)

Grumble over,for now.

A drug addict will rob you, will rape you, will abuse you, and will kill you with out a second thought if it got them more money for their next fix.

They do not care one bit about your rights as a human being, they are the most selfish beings on the face of the earth when it comes to getting the next fix, and you know what? they carry that attitude out with them even after going 'clean', but then they also attach to it a 'victim' mentality as well. 'poor me, feel sorry for me' is all they whinge and whine about after going clean - how they were the victim, how their life was ruined, how their futur was blighted blah blah blah yawn yawn yawn.

All scag heads should be forced to do 3 years cold turkey in solitary. Dish out the pain to society, your gonna reap what you sow when your caught....

3 years no drugs, and they will be cleaner than a nuns thoughts when they get out.... and maybe, just maybe, they might of thought during that misery just what they put other people through whilst they were on their robbing and killing sprees out in the real world.

I for one call for national scag head hunting day. 1 day a year, open season on their skanky hides.

I read this thread yesterday but had to wait to post on it while it was pending.

I've known a few "smackheads" as you've so eloquently called them and I'd like to point out, as one other has, that detoxing cold turkey is horrifying. The main reaon many heroin addicts won't quit is because of their fear of detoxing. Now, I'm not trying to defend their use of heroin as I find it abhorent and disgusting and would never touch the stuff myself.

But the fact that they were forced to go through detox cold turkey and in the general population would qualify as "cruel and unusual punishment." If you don't agree with me then I suggest you go to your local detox clinic and visit a few of the heroin addicts.

I find it rather funny that people who would otherwise be crying over the loss of some Iraqi civilians, or lambasting the government for removing our rights, would also advocate the cruel and unusual punishment of those addicted to the drugs the government has failed to protect us from.

This is a failing of the British governmnet and it's judicial system.

There are numerous solutions to the detoxing of heroin addicts, a few of them include synthetic opiates. These synthetic opiates are administered in pill form and will greatly reduce the pain and agony, not to mention putrid bodily expulsions associated with heroin withdrawl. However, the British governmnet would not even go so far as to give these people a pill.

People have forgotten what the penal system is supposed to be in our modern age. Perhaps you people would want us to start using prison ships and penal colonies again? The penal system is meant to rehabilitate those with sociopathic tendencies, not merely punish them for their past mistakes.

While I am generally not in favor of monetary rewards in lawsuits, especially "pain and suffering" law suits, I believe this does constitute "cruel and unusual punishment". More over, prisoners fighting for their rights, and winning, means a victory for all of us "little people". If prisoners can win back their rights from an over bearing and corrupt government then perhaps there is hope for all of us.

If you still don't believe this is cruel and unusual punishment then I suggest you drink some Ipecac, throw yourself down some stairs, strip to your underwear and then try and sleep in a refrigerator. Perhaps you'd have some idea of what it's like to detox cold turkey from heroin.

Sometimes the dichotomy of people's opinions on ATS really confuse me.

It pains me to hear so much sympathy being shown for the addicted... I mean if this guy goes out and robs and kills someone to feed their habit you actually believe they should be rehabilitated before facing life in prison or death whichever the courts deem? I mean who cares that they have to suffer through the withdrawals from a drug that they CHOSE to begin using. Everyone on Earth knows the detrimental effects of heroin. If someone begins using it it, they deserve to suffer through withdrawals as a lesson to be learned.

I swear liberals kill me with their bleeding hearts. Where is the sympathy for the victim... He/she gets no opportunity for any sort of rehabilitation... But then again who really cares about the victim as long as the perpetrator is comfortable right?

I know it sounds a bit fascist, but I think if you are convicted for a 3rd time on charges relating to heroin...You should die! You will never be productive,as you have refused all previous attempts to curb your behavior.


Just my 2 cents

I`m sure detox is a horrid experience-a bit like getting repeatedly kicked in the head by some junkie so he can steal your pension.

by Shadowflux:

"I find it rather funny that people who would otherwise be crying over the loss of some Iraqi civilians, or lambasting the government for removing our rights, would also advocate the cruel and unusual punishment of those addicted to the drugs the government has failed to protect us from.

This is a failing of the British governmnet and it's judicial system."

Thanks for pointing that out.
It is the government who is to blame-and some would go as far as saying that they actually encourage the use of heroin,due to the way they "manage"the situation.
Giving methadone to addicts does little to get them off the drug.
Sure,I would usually be lambasting the government for removing our rights-but like I said before the rights of law abiding citizens should come first.
In the UK the rights of criminals take priority over the rest of us over and over again.
It winds me up.Do I have a perfect solution?No,but there must be a better way than this.

I am trying to see the dichotomy,and I sort of see what you and Astyanax are saying.But like I said,I am biased.


(Shamelessly proves that bias by voting D4rk Kn1ght way above,although I dunno about the hunt...but get them off drugs in prison at least:up

Most of the drug addicts behind bars are there because of possesion or intent to sell. I can't find any online sources for that info, but I'm sure it's the case.

Leaving your country because you don't like some of the policies or decisions being made, is a respectable thing. But whining and leaving, whithout trying to change those policies is shameable. Have you tried to contact any of your representatives?

What is 4000 pounds going to do for a prisoner who kicked a habit cold turkey? Nothing. If they are in prison because of violent or victim crime, the only thing they should get is maybe an extra minute out of the cell, or a few more ounces of dinner.
If they are there for posession or distribution, they should be thankful they had the opportunity to quit the habit, and work on changing the drug laws when they get out.

No society is perfect. All the people can't be happy all the time. It is impossible to legislate, enforce and judiciate( not a word I know, but it should be) to everyone's satisfaction. As a member of society, one has to accept that is there is no such thing as 100% security, 100% happiness, crimelessness, druglessness. There won't always be jobs, there won't always be insurance. One has to make the best of what's available.

There is no such thing as utopia on this planet.

The level of ignorance in this thread is really making me rather sick. I think what you aren't realizing is that there at least two sides to this situation. The legal side and the emotional side.

On the legal side, by my understanding, this does qualify as cruel and unusual punishment which is why the inmates won the settlement. The law leaves no room for emotional interpretation and goes by precedents set by previous rulings and laws.

The emotional side is where everyone's logic seems to be going out the window. I can't believe I'm reading what I'm reading here on ATS. You people are actually advocating the killing, or in other words, the cleansing of our society through the murder of "undesirables"?! I am by no means what would qualify as a "liberal" but I do endeavor to support the rights of the people over the powers of the government.

Are you people really saying we should just let all addicts rot, and if they continue to do this stuff, even though you've done nothing at all to try and help them, that we should kill them??? I hope you all remember what you've said in this thread when you're sitting in prison for thoughtcrime.

Drug addiction is a social problem, not a personal problem. We are all members of society and drug addiction is all of our problem. I have a feeling that those advocating the murder of "undesirables" are the same people who say that people are homeless because they don't feel like working, or that people have AIDS because the can't keep it in their pants.

I don't think any of you are recognizing the double speak in the term "prisoner's rights". Prisoners have rights because they are citizens of a government, citizens with rights under the law. More over, they are humans and have inalienable rights under any government. They do not lose their rights, and should not be forced to abide by a new set of rights, just because they are now prisoners.

Granted, many of you may have had bad experiences with drug addicts. I live in New York City so I've had my fair share of trouble with addicts. I've also had black people try to rob me, does that mean we should kill all the black people who're in prison for robbery? If I were to say I hate black people because a few have tried to rob me I would be instantly labeled a racist by all of you.

You may think you're untouchable right now, but let me tell you from experience, no one is safe from the strong arm of the law or from addiction. It could be you, your wife, your kids, or even your mom, but addiction can manifest at any time in your life. I have known people who were "normal" their entire lives and ended up dying of an addiction that didn't manifest itself until their 30s or 40s.

Prison is the same. You may look down on those who steal or rob, but one day you could wake up and lose it all, you could be on the streets, hungry and cold just as easily as anyone else. You could also find yourself in prison just as easily. You could be talking on your cell phone while you're driving and end up running over a few children, you'll find yourself in jail and I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune about the treatment of prisoners.

Trust me when I say that addicts get enough of their own punishment from the use of these substances. If you don't think the loss of their job, their families, their friends, and their freedom is a horrible enough punishment then I suggest you meet a few addicts. Do you people really believe that these junkies are just living it up and enjoying themselves on heroin?? Addicts are a slave to their substance and I have a feeling many of you would not have the strength of will to quit if you were trully addicted to somthing.

It's easy to sit there in your comfy chair and feel as though you're above these addicts and prisoners. It's easy to say you'll never do anything like that, that you're a good person and won't end up in prison. I know it's fun to make yourself feel better by treating others as though they're less than human. But you're not denying ignorance.

If you let your government begin restricting and removing the rights of prisoners, addicts, and others you've deemed "undesirable" then how long do you think it'll be before they come for you?

Maybe you're right, maybe we should just start killing addicts. While we're at it, lets start killing the homeless, the AIDS infected, the homosexuals, the poor, the invalid, the old, the stupid, the blind, the deaf, those with dissenting political views, people who think differently, hell and the Jews too, why not?

I suggest that before you open your mouth and let your putrid ignorance spill out you consider issues from all angles and ponder the consequences as far as they will go. I can't believe I'm hearing this stuff on ATS.

Shadowflux,
Listen man,I do hear what you are saying,and the replys on this thread have made me try and take a look at myself,especially from your posts.
I admit,I just dived off the deep end and posted this without giving it too much thought.
I never advocated the killing of drug users,just a tougher,fairer system.
I did disagree with the killing idea in fact.
I think I voted for darkknight,because he was in favour of getting users clean,albeit in harsh terms.
I still feel the law almost protects heroin abusers in Britain though,and this actually generates crime.The government generating crime-who`d have thought it?

Well at least I have learned not to just steam in with opinions before a bit more thought.



[edit on 14-11-2006 by Silcone Synapse]

Read carefully what I said in reference to killing the addicts before you get on your high horse...I gave three chances. And you seem to be forgetting the fact that these people CHOOSE to do the drug to begin with. I have nothing against people who choose other lifestyles, because they don't harm others, but if you CHOOSE to start using heroin then you deserve to be punished to extreme lengths whenever your addictions cause you to commit crimes.

I don't see the correlation with you saying its hatemongering as I don't hate these people. But after repeated convictions and such, I don't feel that you should be able to be a continued drain on society.

Quit applying it across the board to try and prove a point whenever I was refering to the topic at hand.

Oh and yes I believe that people who CHOOSE to not use drugs and be a burden on society are "better" than those that do, and should not be penalized for the actions of others who CHOOSE to be self-destructive...

You explain to me how a convicted felon being punished is in any way similar to an AIDS victim, or a person of color, or the homeless for that matter.

Your self-righteousness disgusts me, and you should read what others say before denouncing them as ignorant. Your tolerance levels are just higher than mine.

Just so you know where I stand on this issue and the whole criminal fraternity.

As soon as you commit a crime then all human rights are withdrawn, rights for people should be for law abiding people and not criminals who made their choice to commit a crime.

If a someone steals a purse, car, breaking and entering, to gain something of value to feed their habit, guilty all rights removed. I don't care if they have a habit and need help, sorry I never asked or made them take drugs and I'm damn sure I don't want to pay taxes to help pay for treatment or keep them in prison so they can have a better level of comfort than some pensioner on the street who cannot afford housing of some sort.

Sick and tired of the pandering to scum like this

Thanks for your input wolfie.
Shadowflux,I know you won`t like what he said,but I suggest that the strength of feeling being displayed by Wolfie,and others before may be coming from personal experiences of being on the receiving end of drug related crime.
This is I believe what set me off on my rant-I was exasperated by the fact that needles are found in my local parks,where my young relatives play with many other children.
Its hard to be nice to people who would steal your car/computer/bank account without a second thought.

Silcone,
Maybe I am getting a little emotional about this topic but it's one close to my heart as I've worked with and dealt with many addicts in my time and I don't believe most of you understand the problem. But I didn't mean to sound like I was yelling at you or anything.

Read carefully what I said in reference to killing the addicts before you get on your high horse...I gave three chances.

Yes Master Jedi, you are very charitable.

I don't see the correlation with you saying its hatemongering as I don't hate these people. But after repeated convictions and such, I don't feel that you should be able to be a continued drain on society.

I understand, it's nothing personal, you just what them all dead.

I think most of the ignorance on this thread stems from people's lack of understanding of addiction. Addiction is a disease, it's not a choice. It's not like these addicts wake up everyday and say "Golly, I sure can't wait to spend all my money on drugs." Perhaps they chose to start doing them but it only takes one or two rides on some of these drugs before it's too late.

Contrary to what television and Hollywood tell you, the life of an addict is far from glamorous. I've known many addicts and they'll tell you that they wanted nothing more than to be clean and be rid of the disease but it was impossible. Even years after an addict has gotten clean he can still relapse, it doesn't matter how good his life is now. Addiction is a spiritual disease, much like depression. Forcing them to quit cold turkey is almost a sure fire way to not end the disease. Would we throw an AIDS victim in a corner and say "Hope you get better, but you know, it was your choice to sleep with that guy"???

Not only is the advocating of killing those deemed "undesirable" by a morally questionable group such as yourselves pure evil, but it's also redundant. Have we forgotten why we've chosen not to do heroin?

BECAUSE IT KILLS YOU!
.
Heroin can kill you on your 200th dose, or on your 2nd dose. I knew someone who had started taking it in college, she last 6 months before she got what's called a "hot dose" and died in her dorm room. If you think addicts and junkies are undeserving of mercy then I suggest you consider what the life of an addict is like.

How much time have you spent on the street? How many guns have you had in your face? Junkies are robbed, beaten, raped and murdered as well, if not more often.

Addiction is a self perpetuating disease, the addicts fear of death and fear of the agony of detox in turn feeds their need for more of the substance, the substance itself creates the addict's fear of death, detox, and prison. "Tough love" does not work on addicts.

Mercy is one of the greatest of all human abilities. It's sad to see that so many have rejected it. Remember, you reap what you sow.

Wolfie,

My only problem with what you're saying lays in your thought process. I agree that if you commit a crime, especially a violent crime, that you should be treated accordingly. However, you should be treated fairly. The oldest law we have written is "Eye for an Eye"

That means that the punishment must fit the crime.

My other problem is that you say they should have their rights revoked when they break a "law". Law, as it is usually understood to mean, is a rule defined and enforced by the government. What you are saying is that those who go against the government should have all rights revoked. As humans on this planet we have natural rights that we are born with, not just those outlined in a constitution, these can not be taken away.

Forcing an addict to quit cold turkey, all the while abiding by the rules of the prison is equal to torture. We might as well tie them to a chair and beat them.

What I was saying before is that anything you advocate can be turn against you. You never know what might happen in the future and what would you do if you ended up in jail and now all your rights are gone?

It sounds to me like people are advocating a return to Dickins era judicial systems.

Shadowfax:
In a way,I am starting to feel very hypocritical,as I read your description of addiction.
Being a(reformed non) smoker,who constantly has battled with giving up-It rang true with me.
Although I never committed a crime to get my drug,the addiction sounds similar-smoking was once "automatic" for me,it was part of how my brain worked...
I know this is a different ball game to heroin though,as I too have known people who became entangled with the evil substance.
That stuff takes a part of your soul.

Thank you for that post Shadowflux.

Originally posted by Silcone Synapse
Thanks for your input wolfie.
Shadowflux,I know you won`t like what he said,but I suggest that the strength of feeling being displayed by Wolfie,and others before may be coming from personal experiences of being on the receiving end of drug related crime.
This is I believe what set me off on my rant-I was exasperated by the fact that needles are found in my local parks,where my young relatives play with many other children.
Its hard to be nice to people who would steal your car/computer/bank account without a second thought.

I understand what you're saying Silcone, so maybe I should explain a little about why I have the point of view I do.

My grandmother was a serious alcoholic who damn near died from it many times. I haven't heard from her in years.

My mother took about 10 years to savagely drink herself to death before my eyes while I was growing up.

I've lost almost all my friends when they began doing heroin together, I had to let them go.

My brother became a heroin addict when his friend started doing it, so far it's been a few years of finding stashes of needles, trying to take him to rehab, worrying about his court cases.

A junkie threw my best friend out a window.

I've spent many a year in family drug counceling, going to rehabs to visit family members, spending christmas eve in detox with my mom, attending AA and NA meetings. You name it, I've done it.

My entire life has consisted of dealing with addicts, junkies, dealers, criminals, cops, all that crap. Do you know what it's like to wonder everyday, when the next family member is going to end up dead?

I, however, am not a junkie, I smoke weed once in a while but can you friggin blame me?

So I'm sorry if you poor people had a few run ins with an addict or two, it doesn't give you the right to be ignorant and merciless.

Maybe I have to much personally invested in this argument and should just bow out and leave the sharks to consume eachother.

by shadowflux
"Maybe I have to much personally invested in this argument and should just bow out and leave the sharks to consume each other."

No,your input is inportant andI think you bring valuable points,and I am sorry you have been so affected by drug/alchohol misuse.

You have probably been more affected than most of the posters here.To see any family member go through what you described is horrible.
I really do not mean to aggravate you but maybe this statement is a little harsh:

"So I'm sorry if you poor people had a few run ins with an addict or two, it doesn't give you the right to be ignorant and merciless."

As those "few run ins" could be the most horrific,life changing event for the recipient.
But I do take your point,and commend you for your honesty.

As those "few run ins" could be the most horrific,life changing event for the recipient.

I understand, but given the subject matter of this debate I'm not going to retract my statement.

I've been through a lot of bull in my life and its only served to make me more merciful and understanding. It's caused me to look at a situation from all prossible angles and seek to understand the positions of all those involved. Its taught me that we are all connected and therefore we must all care for eachother.

If you have become callous to the point of advocating the murder of a whole group of people then you need to work through those issues.

If you don't understand that any of this can happen to you at anytime, you need to deny ignorance.

"There, but for the grace of God, go I"

Well, let me share some of my experiences with addiction and elaborate on why I feel so extreme in my views.

I had an alcoholic grandfather who, without the help of rehab, after 25 years of drinking himself to death quit and bore the burden of withdrawal with only the strength of will as his aid.

I have 8 brothers out of which 2 are addicted to crack and 2 are addicted to excess of any kind(coke, heroin, drinking).

My step-father was addicted to heroin for 15, and kept a job and a wife throughout that time. He too kicked the habit without the help of rehab.

I had 3 of the crew that I grew up with killed or die from drug addiction in one way or another.

I myself worked for 5 years on an A&D unit of a psychiatric hospital and became disenchanted by the true lack of remorse or conscience in those I was treating.

The simple fact is that apparently your sympathy and the willingness of others to treat these people with such delicacy does nothing to help them get over their addiction. Perhaps if faced with more extreme punishment, they will choose to quit rather than face such judgements.

Again I have several people that I truly love that are either ex addicts or currently addicted. Yet I do not feel any need to cater to these people.


But by all means measure me with whatever ruler you wish... Since I'm speaking out of ignorance of the issue

But by all means measure me with whatever ruler you wish... Since I'm speaking out of ignorance of the issue

I'm measuring you with the ruler of your own words Jedi.

You may not have ignorance of the issue of addiction but you seem to have an ignorance of the total conectiveness of man. No where have I advocated babying an addict. I have had friends wake to me dragging them off to rehab against their will.

But to advocate the murder of these addicts is brutal, inhuman and ignorant and I fail to see how you can defend such a position.

Would you have adovcated the murder, or should I say "cleansing", of your own family members had they not ceased their subsance abuse?

Edit to add:

Perhaps if faced with more extreme punishment, they will choose to quit rather than face such judgements.

Addicts are already faced with the possibilty of their death, you should know as well as I, that everytime they stick a needle in their arm or a straw in their nose it could be their last.

Where is the logic in assuming that murder would scare addicts more than overdosing?

If addicts are not scared enough of death from their substance to quite, then it is quite illogical to say that they'd be scared enough of the executioner to quit.

Your advocation of a "more extreme punishment" also denotes the use of more extreme executions than the ones we use now, which are also unlawful and labeled as "cruel and unusual punishment".

[edit on 14-11-2006 by Shadowflux]