America's Agony

Magic, that last post, should have been your first.

Finally, you tell us. Thank you.

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
Those facts aren't really that pesky as you like to portray them.. they are just unecesarily complicated. Break it down for us... how much interest was paid into the 'fed' last year on the debt? Tell us that.

I'm sorry, but sometimes things ARE complicated.. and cannot be explained in terms that those who refuse to even study basics will understand.

It's like someone trying to explain quantum physics to me.. and then me claiming they are being obtuse by using confusing terms like "mass" and "energy"...

I am NOT being obtuse, but neither to I have the time, ability or motivation to spend time re-explaining stuff that you don't want to try to understand yourself.

still, to answer your direct question, the answer is $28,958,637,000.. Look!!

I'm not looking the other way as you say.. I'm just looking 'beyond' the reports and the ideology that's behind them. Why can't you grasp that?

I understand you are trying to discover ther truth.. but until you learn to understand the subject, how will you ever know you've found the truth?

WHY is this "system" NOT IN HOUSE? Why is it a private corporation? The constitution states very clearly that the GOVERNMENT itself has the right to coin and print money...

Oh good grief!!! For the nth time... Because when politicians directly control the printing presses, they tend to abuse that power !!!

Why is that question hard to tackle?

it's NOT! You just don't believe the answer...Why is that simple answer so hard for you to grasp?

Let me ask you again...

Did the American people really have a choice on the matter when this 'system' that you so readily seem to defend was set up?

Well, if you believe you live in a democracy, then yes. You voted for the politicians that made the decisions. That's how your democracy works. If that doesn't answer you question, then I'm sorry I don't know what your asking?

Oh good grief!!! For the nth time... Because when politicians directly control the printing presses, they tend to abuse that power !!!

Oh.. so you would rather have some foreign bankers controlling the printing presses and abusing the power? I'm not condoning either but you get my point loud and clear and it's this point YOU refuse to grasp.

I would MUCH rather have our own politicians.. (You know.. the ones WE vote for?) controlling the printing presses. We need to print our OWN money and we need to have our OWN set of checks and balances and like was said earlier, 'thin green lines'.

Well, if you believe you live in a democracy, then yes. You voted for the politicians that made the decisions. That's how your democracy works. If that doesn't answer you question, then I'm sorry I don't know what your asking?

You keep saying that but you know full well that's not answering my question.

Fact is the American people didn't get to vote on and were really 'kept' in the dark on the creation of the 'fed'.

Let me spell it out for you.. The American people did NOT get to vote DIRECTLY and were not directly informed of what they were getting themselves into concerning the fed. You can' t escape that fact.
It was 'slid' in under the radar and you know it. Of course the mostly asleep apathetic American people are as just to blame.
Stop telling us that just because we voted in a politician that it's ok for that politician to be a 'trojan horse' for something the American people might not want if they really KNEW what they were getting, this type of deception happens all the time and I'm SICK of it.


Just stumbled across this:

www.infowars.com...

From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs .


"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American POLICAL and ECONOMIC institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am PROUD OF IT."

Personally, I'm SICK of these inbred cockroaches and their 'influence' on the world.

still, to answer your direct question, the answer is $28,958,637,000.. Look!!

Great.. thanks for pointing that out!!

Now.. if the 'fed' was in house we could have paid that interest to OURSELVES.

Man, think of what $28,958,637,000 could have done for our own economy!



BTW, one of these days we all are going to wake up absolute SLAVES to this "integrated global political and economic structure". (We are already 70+% there)
What a horrific irony.. we the American people are also financing this "structure" with our own LABOR which is being stolen from us in the form of a direct tax called the Federal Income Tax.
What fools we are.. May God help us all.




[edit on 8-11-2006 by ViewFromTheStars]

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Scarper,

Your assumption here seems to be that people can be perfect. I dont think so. I think that people are flawed...that the material we are naturally made of is lousy material. All of us..especiall me..

I dont know if you ever thought of it but people dont need money to be greedy. Greed is a natural human emotion. It occurs naturally to people..daily.

Money is the most swappable commodity. If we didnt have money..people would naturally invent it. It is what ever commodity is the most swappable. It must have certain characteristics to be good money.

It must be naturally divisible.
It must store value... a storehouse of value..this one is going down the tank very quickly.
It must be recognizable by the public as a whole. They must be willing to accept it for goods and services.

Throughout history ..the commoditys which have fulfilled this requirement are Gold, Silver, and copper.

Money ...is just a more sophisticated system of barter.

The problem with our moneys to day..electronic or paper..is that it is rapidly losing its ability to store value...due to its lack of scarcity in the marketplace...over issuing by the process of Government deficits.

When you or I borrow moneys we must over time offset this with our labors. The government does not have to do this ..they get the goods and services like now.
If they had to tax for these moneys they would have been overthrown by revolution long ago. Common sense.

Someone here has ingeniously figured out a way to tax us and be long gone before most of us catch on.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Yes, you are right, everyone is flawed, that is the whole reason we are here!! We are here to learn, to iron out our flaws, to resist temptation, to deny greed.
You may have a pretty poor outlook on all of humankind, but I am afraid I do not share it! I see good in lots of people. I do not see greed in everyone i know\meet! Yes, there is lots of greed in the world, but that does not apply to all humankind. In your viewpoint, you might aswell say hatred is a human emotion, so all of humankind lives on hatred, which is completely boll0x!!
If greed is a natural human emotion as you try to put it, then we are all doomed anyway!! how can we overcome something that you say is natural?!?!

I am afraid I would rather have my dumb views!!, than your negative outlook on humanity!!

Anyway, the point I was trying to make, is the irony of the fact that money is an illusion, and how certain greedy parties use it to manipulate and control the masses.

I am rather disappointed by your answer MM. That what you are refering to is still another symptom. It is all the symptoms of the uninspired out of control ego. Power, greed, desire, and holding power over others are all symptoms of the ego. The probem with our country is we have become an ego driven society. Buy this and you will be happy, act like them and you will be happy, look like this and you will be happy.

Everything we seem to do in this nation is ego driven. This ego is driving the spirit out of our collective concience.

Ego is ancient and is the ultimate parasite that we need to drive out of us, or you will not reach the souls ultimate goal. Tibeten Monks are a good example of being at such an advanced level of Karma, that the egeo has all but disappered.

ego is the key, or should I say the lack of.

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
Oh.. so you would rather have some foreign bankers controlling the printing presses and abusing the power? I'm not condoning either but you get my point loud and clear and it's this point YOU refuse to grasp.

that is NOT what I'm saying.. Foreign banks DO NOT control US printing presses, and I've provided th evidence to prove it..

it is YOU are are refusing to accept the evidence..

Let me spell it out for you.. The American people did NOT get to vote DIRECTLY and were not directly informed of what they were getting themselves into concerning the fed. You can' t escape that fact.

Of course you didn't get to vote for it directly.. you don't get to vote for MOST things directly! I'm not defending or promoting the system... just pointing out how it works

Stop telling us that just because we voted in a politician that it's ok for that politician to be a 'trojan horse' for something the American people might not want if they really KNEW what they were getting, this happens all the time and I'm SICK of it.

Then change the system!!! I can't do that for you.

still, to answer your direct question, the answer is $28,958,637,000.. Look!!

Great.. thanks for pointing that out!!

Now.. if the 'fed' was in house we could have paid that interest to OURSELVES.

Man, think of what $28,958,637,000 could have done for our own economy!

as I've already posted and provided evidence to prove that money IS paid to you!! Page 125 of the report. after expenses of around 5 billion are taken out (and all those expenses are clearly document in the report), the remaining $23 billion or so is paid to the treasury, i.e. the government, i.e. YOU!!!!

So you see, the "profits" DO indeed go to the government. I've provided plenty of proof.. cold hard figures. That's more than those who think the fed is a scam have EVER done.



[edit on 8-11-2006 by nowthenlookhere]

Lonegunman dont be unhappy, the powers that control us are manipulating our minds to think that there is bizarre reason for what happens to us, that some point in time they will reveal who or what it is. This is all part of the program they dont want you to think that its something as mundane as a group of very powerful and rich individuals are behind all this, they want you to believe its what they say it is. And this issue is not about ego's its not even about America, America emerged from WW2 as a great and wealthy power, exactly what was intended. Ever since then the Country has been under the control of this group who are bleeding the country dry and is getting it to prepare other countries for the same treatment. When that goal is achieved America will be discarded like an old worn out shoe.

as I've already posted and provided evidence to prove that money IS paid to you!! Page 125 of the report. after expenses of around 5 billion are taken out (and all those expenses are clearly document in the report), the remaining $23 billion or so is paid to the treasury, i.e. the government, i.e. YOU!!!!

This 'money' is paid to me?

I sure have not seen any of it.

This is a good read:

www.greatreality.com...

Who do we owe this money to?

We owe it to the people and entities that have bought or received U. S. debt instruments, such as Savings Bonds, Treasury Notes or Treasury Bills.
That includes:

# Average folks like us
# Large and small corporations
# Banks
# Pension funds
# Insurance companies
# Various U. S. government entities such as the Social Security Trust Fund
# State and local government entities
# Foreign investors
# Foreign corporations
# Foreign governments

Not so simple is it?

Soo.. how much of this interests actually goes 'back' to the American people THEMSELVES?

Again.. paying interest to foreigners who are pulling money out of their rear ends.. IT's just wrong, now matter how you look at it or try and twist it.

Another question and to really pin this down:

WHO all really owns our debt.. Who all owns these 'debt instruments'?

I guarantee it's not all owned by the American people themselves. Why don't you try and break that down for us?

I'll give you a hint.. Some of these 'people' who are buying up all of our gold with money that was created of thin air also buy our 'debt instruments' with this fiat "crap".

www.house.gov...

Who owns our debt?
Ownership of U.S. government securities consist of U.S. citizens, FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS, FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS and CORPORATIONS.

Gee Wally.. I wonder how many American people actually own any of their 'own' debt' versus these OTHER entities.

So let me make this PERFECTLY clear...

The 'fed' can print our money and then TURN AROUND and buy our debt!



[edit on 8-11-2006 by ViewFromTheStars]

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Lonegunman dont be unhappy, the powers that control us are manipulating our minds to think that there is bizarre reason for what happens to us, that some point in time they will reveal who or what it is. This is all part of the program they dont want you to think that its something as mundane as a group of very powerful and rich individuals are behind all this, they want you to believe its what they say it is. And this issue is not about ego's its not even about America, America emerged from WW2 as a great and wealthy power, exactly what was intended. Ever since then the Country has been under the control of this group who are bleeding the country dry and is getting it to prepare other countries for the same treatment. When that goal is achieved America will be discarded like an old worn out shoe.

Believe me I understand the concept fully. I know we are being used up, just like Europe was used up, next will be China. We built our wealth literaly on the ashes or Europe. We are outsourcing because of the same controllers you speak of. I understand it to the detail. Hell we are helping them by buying all the foriegn goods we have the power to stop this power shift, but our own ego gets in the way and we become divided.

The heart of the problem, and what needs to be realized, is that all this is based on Ego. All of it. Major religions do not have spirit, only ego. Mankind needs to be led by the spirit, by the heart and not by the ego.

It all boils down to just that. Ego.

This thread was about getting people to think, think about whats happening to them and their respective countries. Too many here seek sensationalist stories to feed their fevered imaginations. How much time and effort by how many has been spent on 9/11, were all guilty of it. How many of those have gone marching on the Whitehouse for the thruth, how many demonstrations in the street?

People are blinded with these events but fail to deal with the real issue's about them, they fail to join all the dots together and look at the bigger picture. The people who show outrage to 9/11 will show indifference to the plight of others even their fellow citizens. How many of those who lost loved one's on 9/11 have been helped by the State, fellow Americans or Silverstein. While the story of 9/11 is kept alive what is the plight of those who suffered directly from it are they now forgotten.

What is happening to America has happened to others before, its time we started waking up and started to do something about it because at the end of it all we have no one to blame but ourselves. Would we allow robbers to come into our house and steal from us, no we would not so why do we allow banks to do it to us.

Did a court base one of it's decision once on whether the federal reserve bank is privately owned or not???

Is this it??? Or not???

home.hiwaay.net...

counter claim:

nesara.org...

counter counter claim:

www.themoneymasters.com...

More:

www.fdrs.org...

wikipedia:

The Federal Reserve Banks are nominally "owned" by the private member banks (see below). In Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (9th Cir. 1982), the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that "the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the FTCA [the Federal Tort Claims Act], but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." The opinion also stated that "the Reserve Banks have properly been held to be federal instrumentalities for some purposes." [1]

The member banks are generally privately owned corporations. The stocks of many of the member banks are publicly traded.

en.wikipedia.org...

Now who's right, and what is it????

Originally posted by nowthenlookhere

Originally posted by photobug
In either case I find that both sides fail to produce any true evidence to support their claims. From a research perspective what documents exist that would clarify either end of this debate? I personally would like to see all the supporting evidence regarding the fed especially the documents regarding the organization, ownership, and audits.

fair point.. I think I'll do a little mroe reseach and try do dig up some documentation. It might tiake a while since I'm busy with a few things right now, but I can see it would do some good.

It seems we agree on most points just not the who is in control part. Regardless of who is in control or not in control based on your above quote do you not think that a system that takes advantage of and PROMOTES naivety is a skewed system?

yes, absolutely. Naivety is definelty promoted, actively, by the financial services industry, and the body set up to regulate it, the SEC. Laws exist (in the US) to restrict anyone with less than $500k liquid assets from investing in some of the best investments. The tax laws, made by the rich, for the rich, exacerbate this. CNBC, Bloomberg et. al. are fonts of the most appalling, misleading drivel that ever passed iself off for "investment information". Your broker, your pension advisor, your mutual fund salesman, your gold-dealer, ALL exist primarily to take YOUR money.. and it's the institutionalized level of disinformation that allows so many people to fall for the same old tricks, over and over again. I don't think it's part of a central master plan though.. i think it's the result of many different people, all seeing that something works.

The good news is, it doesn't have to be that way. There is nothing intrinsic in the finacial markets that means people have to hand control of their savings and financial destiny so someone else. Those in the know don't ususally share the knowledge because

a) people don't ask
b) some "knowdedge" particularty relating to finacial markets, becomes less useful the more who know it.
c) talking about money is often a bit of a taboo for some people, and can make one unpopular.

The real problem remains the same though, it is just one step towards the monopolization of our freedom. Every time we turn around there is but another small piece of the puzzle being put together. The discount card is just one way to get people use to being tracked, debit cards are but another way to control and track the money system.

That i can agree with.. again I'm not sure how much of it is intentionally controlled, and how much is just(?) systemic. I'm certainly no fan of big brother though either.

Tell me is it fair that the bankers create a system that puts more money in their pockets. They create a debit/credit card and make it simple and easy for people to use. So simple and so safe that people have no choice to use it. As a business owner why do I have pay the bank for every transaction a person uses their card for in my place of business.

well, people DO have a choice (though a thread on "which has greater control on our subconcious, our concious mind, or advertising" might raise issues there..... the problem is people always tend to take the easy option.

Real freedom is living for yourself and not living for the bankers.

Now on this statement, I really couldn't agree more!

Nowthenlookhere,

This thread moves so rapidly I did not get a chance to tell you that I agree with your position explained here in your reply to Photobug way back on page 7.

I have by observation begun to understand that often the term Professional means keeping others or competitors ignorant of the most basic functions of what goes on around us and for the motivations you express above.

Good post on your part..well done.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars

This 'money' is paid to me?

I sure have not seen any of it.

Yes you. You have elected a government that chooses to spend that money invading other countries rather than return it to the populaton via reduced taxes, but yes... on a national level, it's your money.

Who do we owe this money to?

We owe it to the people and entities that have bought or received U. S. debt instruments, such as Savings Bonds, Treasury Notes or Treasury Bills.
That includes:

# Average folks like us
# Large and small corporations
# Banks
# Pension funds
# Insurance companies
# Various U. S. government entities such as the Social Security Trust Fund
# State and local government entities
# Foreign investors
# Foreign corporations
# Foreign governments

Not so simple is it?

Actually it is.. but clearly you're still having trouble..

Those are the people who lent money to the US government. The US government PAYS interest to those people. That's how it works. If your government borrows money on then open market, by selling bonds, it has to PAY the lender interest...

If the government borrows mony from itself, via the federal reserve, thereby creating new money, it also RECIEVES the interest on that debt, in the form of a re-imbursment from the Fed. There is no other interest paid to anyone.

Is plain enough for you?

Soo.. how much of this interests actually goes 'back' to the American people THEMSELVES?

The figure I told you!!!

Again.. paying interest to foreigners who are pulling money out of their rear ends..

Hang on there!! If I, or anyone else, lends money to the US government, why the hell shouldn't we be paid interest? I earned my money just like everyone else, and have EVERY right to demand interest when I lend it to someone... or do you have a problem with that concept?

Or are you saying other countries are busy printing up their own dollars to buy the government bonds with.?... (actually L'll Kim of N. Korea is doing just that I hear, but that's another story.)

Actually, don't bother to answer that....I've tried to help you, but I'm realizing now that you're just trolling for a fight... I'm done here.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Nowthenlookhere,

This thread moves so rapidly I did not get a chance to tell you that I agree with your position explained here in your reply to Photobug way back on page 7.

I have by observation begun to understand that often the term Professional means keeping others or competitors ignorant of the most basic functions of what goes on around us and for the motivations you express above.

Good post on your part..well done.

Thanks... and sorry again if I was bit harsh on you later on in the thread! We may differ on certain key details, but many of the underlying problems, I agree with..


I'm glad it sounds like you're starting to find your way through the financial maze/cess-pit that is Wall St.. (if I read you right).. Keep plugging. Finacial freedom IS possible. I found it age 33(spooky), and now am able to dedicate time, and no short amount of money, helping my friends and loved ones do the same..

Nowthen,

I'm not trolling for a fight so relax..

Or are you saying other countries are busy printing up their own dollars to buy the government bonds with.?... (actually L'll Kim of N. Korea is doing just that I hear, but that's another story.)

Take a look at this:

www.investopedia.com...

Money that a government has declared to be legal tender, despite the fact that it has NO INTRINSIC VALUE and is not backed by reserves.

So how is fiat money any better than 'what' is being printed in N. Korea? In the context that I'm trying to convey it ISN'T.

The figure I told you!!!

That figure as far as I comprehend it is the amount paid towards the 'instruments of debt that were sold'. If I'm wrong please explain how in more detail.
Like I said earlier, 'these instruments of debt' are NOT ALL owned by Americans.

Hang on there!! If I, or anyone else, lends money to the US government, why the hell shouldn't we be paid interest? I earned my money just like everyone else, and have EVERY right to demand interest when I lend it to someone... or do you have a problem with that concept?

No.. I'm not going to 'hang on here'. No.. you DON'T have EVERY right to demand interest in this particular sitation. I'm sorry if you can't get your head around the conflict of interests in the fact that we are paying interest to someone who ALSO MAKES MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR and controls our money supply. If the only person we were paying interest on the national debt to was American People it probably wouldn't be such a moral issue or conflict of interest but.. our debt is not owned by just the American People.

Some more interesting information I'm finding as I go along here:

www.informationclearinghouse.info...

The Federal Reserve System is the result of the Congress and President having agreed to privatize the nation's money system and relinquish the power that should have remained the government's exclusive right. That act was so outrageous the Fed had to be deliberately designed to look like a branch of the federal government to hide the fact that it's really an all-powerful privately owned banking cartel whose member banks (including all the national ones) share in the vast profits earned from having the most important of all franchises governments alone should have - the right to print money in any amount, control its supply and price, and benefit hugely by loaning it out for a profit including to the government itself that must pay interest on the money it should never have to if it simply printed its own. Think of what happened as the government having LEGALIZED THE RIGHT TO COUNTERFEIT THE NATIONAL CURRENCY for PRIVATE GAIN. It's no exaggeration to claim this is the greatest ever of all financial scams causing incomprehensible harm with the public none the wiser. Here's how it works in simple terms:

Wow.. powerful stuff.




[edit on 8-11-2006 by ViewFromTheStars]

Originally posted by nowthenlookhere

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Nowthenlookhere,

This thread moves so rapidly I did not get a chance to tell you that I agree with your position explained here in your reply to Photobug way back on page 7.

I have by observation begun to understand that often the term Professional means keeping others or competitors ignorant of the most basic functions of what goes on around us and for the motivations you express above.

Good post on your part..well done.

Thanks... and sorry again if I was bit harsh on you later on in the thread! We may differ on certain key details, but many of the underlying problems, I agree with..


I'm glad it sounds like you're starting to find your way through the financial maze/cess-pit that is Wall St.. (if I read you right).. Keep plugging. Finacial freedom IS possible. I found it age 33(spooky), and now am able to dedicate time, and no short amount of money, helping my friends and loved ones do the same..

Nowthenlookhere,

No I do not believe you are or were being harsh. I believe you are acting on what you know. You are being frank. I can respect that in a person. I dont find you being histronic as are some in here. I can respect that too.

I never was much into drama queens so to speak.

And yes..I do think Wall Street is exactly that ..a cess pool/maze.

I agree with you on one of your previous posts...the systems of brokers/houses etc etc is designed to keep you on their treadmill..not yours...if I recall correctly the crux of your post. If this is the correct gist of your statement ..it too is well said.

I am trying to formulate a answer to one of your latest posts before my last one...but this thread moves so fast and I have things which need doing here. It may have to wait till later.

Thanks for your replys.
Orangetom

View..

OK, so maybe you're not trolling, but if you would please PLEASE just review some of the information I've provided, you will see that I'm really not just making this all up. I am answering all your questions clearly, but they are not hitting home... most likely because you've already come to youre conclusions and are rejecting out of hand education meterials and documentary evidence I provided.

YOu won't understand the Fed reports, until you have at least got a basic grounding of modern economic theory... which you will get from those webcast links I posted. Expect them to take weeks, if not months, with addtional study, to really understand. There's no 5 minute synopsis for stuff like this. College course last 3-4 years for a reason!

Your questions, I'm sorry to have to say, are born of ignorance, not insight.



[edit on 8-11-2006 by nowthenlookhere]

YOu won't understand the Fed reports, until you have at least got a basic grounding of modern economic theory... which you will get from those webcast links I posted. You questions, I'm sorry to have to say, are born of ignorance, not insight.

Fortunately, I don't feel I have to completely understand 'economic' theory to get the big picture. The questions I have are born out of common sense.

as I've already posted and provided evidence to prove that money IS paid to you!! Page 125 of the report. after expenses of around 5 billion are taken out (and all those expenses are clearly document in the report), the remaining $23 billion or so is paid to the treasury, i.e. the government, i.e. YOU!!!!

Let's break this down a little more: The fact that this '23 billion' or so going back into the treasury does not ERASE the debt and interest owed on all the 'debt instruments' 'out there' which are owned by:

Who do we owe this money to?
We owe it to the people and entities that have bought or received U. S. debt instruments, such as Savings Bonds, Treasury Notes or Treasury Bills.
That includes:

# Average folks like us
# Large and small corporations
# Banks
# Pension funds
# Insurance companies
# Various U. S. government entities such as the Social Security Trust Fund
# State and local government entities
# Foreign investors
# Foreign corporations
# Foreign governments

Just elaborate deception if you ask me and I say this with all due respect.

Some things you can't divorce, no matter how much economic 'theory' you know.

[edit on 8-11-2006 by ViewFromTheStars]

Older article but interesting too:

www.washingtonpost.com...

Private investors own about half our $7 trillion-plus of national debt; THE FED and federal trust funds own the rest.

This was in 04.. looking at current numbers.

Then change the system!!! I can't do that for you.

Your right.. I can't do this by myself but maybe if enough people would EVER wake up! (I doubt this will ever happen)


Interesting how you said earlier that you are merely trying to explain 'how' this system works. Sounds to me like you don't want it changed.




[edit on 8-11-2006 by ViewFromTheStars]