Bush Signs Border Fence Bill

President GW Bush signed a bill approving a 700 mile fence along the border with Mexico. A separate bill provided the 1.2 billion dollars necessary to build the fence. Mexico doesn't like the fence, comparing the fence to the Berlin Wall.



I'm all for the fence and comparisons between a fence to make it harder for illegals to enter the US and the Berlin Wall, which was designed to prevent East Berliners from leaving East Berlin are worse than idiotic.

I'm all for immigrants coming to our country to work and make better lives for themselves. My ancestors, the Scotch-Irish and the Norwegians, came here for the same reasons.

We need them and they need us, but there are right ways and wrong ways to do things and because of the state of the world today, the US cannot afford to wink at illegal immigration, regardless of how it is manifested.

I'm all for building one on the northern border, too. It's funny how so many people are willing to risk everything to come a country that is the world's laughing stock.

I for one am glad to have them come here and contribute to our nation. I'd be willing to trade some of the immigrants for some our worthless natives on a one to one basis, but we need to work out the details on that arrangement.


[edit on 2006/10/26 by GradyPhilpott]

Personally I doubt the wall is going to stop the more determined immigrants, but I suppose that it's a good first step. However it won't matter how much is built along the border, there's still a few loose ends we need to tie up in the US.

1. Grant equal wages and benefits to illegal immigrants. Although it's not the ideal solution it'll take away any reason for employers to hire illegal immigrants over legal citizens.

2. Improve primary education and make college more accessable financially so as to improve the competitiveness of the US workforce. If the legal citizens here are more competitive and more skilled than it'll make it harder for illegals to get higher paying jobs.

3. Eliminate widespread outsourcing within the industry. Heavily tax corporations that do outsource so as to force them out of the country (along with the executive jackasses running them) entirely, or bring the company back to the USA. This will allow for actual job security, which will allow legal citizens to actually take up industrial jobs without fear of layoffs due to outsourcing. Since legals will begin taking up industrial jobs again this will further remove the need for illegal employment.

4. Substantially lower taxes on low paying jobs so as to provide incentives for taxpaying citizens to take those jobs by raising the amount of money they'd make with those jobs.

5. Do something about Wal-Mart.

1. Grant equal wages and benefits to illegal immigrants. Although it's not the ideal solution it'll take away any reason for employers to hire illegal immigrants over legal citizens.

What? They're illegal--undocumented, in PC parlance. They don't exist on the books of those who hire them. How about making immigrant worker programs more accessible and thereby eliminating some of the incentives to do business illegally.

5. Do something about Wal-Mart.

Like shop there? If it wasn't for Wal-Mart and Amazon, I wouldn't own anything but my car.

Wal-Mart makes living affordable for poor folk like myself.

The rich can shop anywhere and look down their noses at Wal-Mart.

For us, the hoi polloi, Wal-Mart is to the 21st century what Samuel Colt was to the 19th.


[edit on 2006/10/26 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by cyberdude78
1. Grant equal wages and benefits to illegal immigrants. Although it's not the ideal solution it'll take away any reason for employers to hire illegal immigrants over legal citizens.

You can't be serious. Should we also grant them medical degrees because they want to be a doctor?

3. Eliminate widespread outsourcing within the industry. Heavily tax corporations that do outsource so as to force them out of the country (along with the executive jackasses running them) entirely, or bring the company back to the USA. This will allow for actual job security, which will allow legal citizens to actually take up industrial jobs without fear of layoffs due to outsourcing. Since legals will begin taking up industrial jobs again this will further remove the need for illegal employment.

No thank you. I'll take my chances being and staying competitive over some government enforced job security. You are advocating socialism.

5. Do something about Wal-Mart.

Yes. Make them all Superstores that remain open 7X24.

Back on topic, this bill signing was long overdue. Of course, it is an election year.

Now comes the critical part - funding. There has been $1.2billion appropriated already, but if the Dems get control of the Congress, any more funding could dry up.

(1) the fence signing was all propaganda. It won't really do anything and I doubt seriously it will ever be built....our own Hadrian's wall but bush is no Hadrian and our own wall of China but it didn't keep people out either.

(2) Cyberdude has some serious points in his favor and what he suggests IS NOT socialism. What he is suggesting in a nutshell is to make it so a company can't hire illegals to do work on the cheap, and really his suggestion is one of the few ways that might actually work. As for punishing corporations that outsource...here...here!!! Out sourcing has got to stop or it will destroy the middle class in this country.

I don't think a wall is going to help a whole lot. The illegals will just find ways through it, around it, or over it.
I heard someone say that if you build a 51 foot wall, someone will invent a 51 foot ladder and I think that's true.

As long as people here will hire them, they're going to keep comeing.

Yes, this bill signing was obviously politically motivated, but you know what? I'll take it.

Forget that it is 5 years too late, and under funded. It is a start. Next step is to document the illegals that are here, and deport the undesirables. I am all for a guest worker program as long as they pay taxes and pay for social services. If that happens, they will have to ask for more money, and then cannot undercut an American worker. And yes I am willing to pay a little more for my oranges.

It is also good to see that Washington is changing their views to do the will of the people. I know that probably won’t last after the election.

Bush signed that only to try and keep a majority in congress. That is all. Move along. Our government is useless and just short of criminal...though some of em have even achieved that.

X

Originally posted by Hal9000
Yes, this bill signing was obviously politically motivated, but you know what? I'll take it.

Forget that it is 5 years too late, and under funded. It is a start. Next step is to document the illegals that are here, and deport the undesirables. I am all for a guest worker program as long as they pay taxes and pay for social services. If that happens, they will have to ask for more money, and then cannot undercut an American worker. And yes I am willing to pay a little more for my oranges.

It is also good to see that Washington is changing their views to do the will of the people. I know that probably won’t last after the election.

Agreed! I'll take it as well....although I would prefer the fence to be 10-12 ft high, have razor wire and constantina wire on both sides but hell, I will take it.

EAT THAT MEXICO! ......

The WALLS WORK! San Diego got improved fencing and they are doing a much better job of stopping illegals and crime.

I think some people are worried that that they are going to work too well and kill the cheap labor market.

I'm loving it...now we just need to build the rest of the fence. Then we can get serious about giving temp jobs and permanent citizenship to those immigrants that are 1)hard workers 2)law abiding 3)willing to stay off welfare 4)willing to learn English and be American and not Mexican. I don't care if half the US is hispanic as long as we are getting people that are smart and good. Right now we are getting whoever is desperate enough to do anything (sell drugs) to either pay for their family or pay for their own lazy attitude. There is too much bad coming in with the good and screwing it up for those that deserve to come to this country.

Mexico's UN resolution complaining about the fence is silly. I don't work and pay taxes in the US so someone from Mexico can live off me. I welcome them if they want to work side by side and be American and pay taxes...but they have to follow the rules of immigration.

Good... but not enough!
You have to be able to adequately patrol the border and more importantly enforce the laws already in place and send illegal imigrants back to where they came. Problem is that I don't think we're willing to do that seriously yet and so they'll just keep coming. It may be a giant waste of tax dollars. I'm glad Bush signed this... at least its a step in the right direction.

Oh, and to Mexican president elect Calderon who feels this is some sort of slap in the face...thhpppt!

The fence idea has caused friction between the United States and Mexico, as demonstrated today in Ottawa, where Mexico’s president-elect, Felipe Calderón, condemned the bill signed by President Bush. “Humanity made a huge mistake by building the Berlin Wall, and I believe that today the United States is committing a grave error in building the wall on our border,” Mr. Calderón said.

Sorry sir, but the Berlin wall was to keep people in. Tthis wall will help keep your people out! If the Mexican government hates the idea so much, then I ask what has the Mexican government done to help solve the problem? Nothing so we are left with defending ourselves... and "defending" is the correct word because the influx of illegal immigrants has been nothing short of an invasion.

Immigration is a good thing, however outsourcing on US soil is not.

They think that they are coming to make a better living, however because they are illegal, they are essentially working for the same wages as people are working for in other nations for American corporations that go there to make more money.

So it's not only outsourcing the American citizens overseas, but also in mainland US. Needs to stop. I believe in helping out other countries and giving poorer people work, however we need to take care of our own first.

Shattered OUT...

Let see the article again.

Republicans, hoping to hang on to their control of the U.S. Congress in Nov. 7 elections, have been pushing border security in reaction to anger by voters

Yes, is political motivated.

Eventually, Mr. Bush realized that his desire for “comprehensive” immigration reform was dead, at least for this election year, so he bowed to political reality and embraced the border-security concept, at least for the time being

Yes, I believe that is not going to be any fence at all, see Mr. Bush is fond of adding statements on bills that he signs in case he later has to go back and change it as he see fit under his unilateral powers.

So I will believe it when I see it.

Originally posted by grover
(2) Cyberdude has some serious points in his favor and what he suggests IS NOT socialism. What he is suggesting in a nutshell is to make it so a company can't hire illegals to do work on the cheap, and really his suggestion is one of the few ways that might actually work. As for punishing corporations that outsource...here...here!!! Out sourcing has got to stop or it will destroy the middle class in this country.

The two points I most heavily disagree with are these:

1. Grant equal wages and benefits to illegal immigrants. Although it's not the ideal solution it'll take away any reason for employers to hire illegal immigrants over legal citizens.

3. Eliminate widespread outsourcing within the industry. Heavily tax corporations that do outsource so as to force them out of the country (along with the executive jackasses running them) entirely, or bring the company back to the USA. This will allow for actual job security, which will allow legal citizens to actually take up industrial jobs without fear of layoffs due to outsourcing. Since legals will begin taking up industrial jobs again this will further remove the need for illegal employment.

On the first point, he wants to reward illegal behavior. This is wrong on so many levels that it is difficult to know where to start. A much better solution would be to enforce the laws currently on the books.

To the second point, enforced job security will quickly put us into the same dilemma that France now faces. It is not the role of government to provide you with job security. This is an element of cradle-to-grave entitlements, and if that's not socialism, I don't know what is.

Nobody likes outsourcing, except for those countries who are getting the outsourced jobs. But you must face facts; we do not live in a one-country world. Outsourcing is the only way some companies can stay alive. It is a tool of competition. Why would I pay $10 for one T-shirt when I can get a package of 3 for the same price? To support that model, wages would have to increase to match prices. Inflation would spiral out of control. That's the end result of socialism; heavy inflation and ultimately, stagnation.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by grover
(2) Cyberdude has some serious points in his favor and what he suggests IS NOT socialism. What he is suggesting in a nutshell is to make it so a company can't hire illegals to do work on the cheap, and really his suggestion is one of the few ways that might actually work. As for punishing corporations that outsource...here...here!!! Out sourcing has got to stop or it will destroy the middle class in this country.

The two points I most heavily disagree with are these:

1. Grant equal wages and benefits to illegal immigrants. Although it's not the ideal solution it'll take away any reason for employers to hire illegal immigrants over legal citizens.

3. Eliminate widespread outsourcing within the industry. Heavily tax corporations that do outsource so as to force them out of the country (along with the executive jackasses running them) entirely, or bring the company back to the USA. This will allow for actual job security, which will allow legal citizens to actually take up industrial jobs without fear of layoffs due to outsourcing. Since legals will begin taking up industrial jobs again this will further remove the need for illegal employment.

On the first point, he wants to reward illegal behavior. This is wrong on so many levels that it is difficult to know where to start. A much better solution would be to enforce the laws currently on the books.

To the second point, enforced job security will quickly put us into the same dilemma that France now faces. It is not the role of government to provide you with job security. This is an element of cradle-to-grave entitlements, and if that's not socialism, I don't know what is.

Nobody likes outsourcing, except for those countries who are getting the outsourced jobs. But you must face facts; we do not live in a one-country world. Outsourcing is the only way some companies can stay alive. It is a tool of competition. Why would I pay $10 for one T-shirt when I can get a package of 3 for the same price? To support that model, wages would have to increase to match prices. Inflation would spiral out of control. That's the end result of socialism; heavy inflation and ultimately, stagnation.

I don't see it as rewarding illegal aliens (though they will get paid better) I see it as enforcing the same national standards that already exists in the workplace so that it applies to everyone (legal or illegal) who work here. If the incentives (low wages, no on-the-job protections or benefits) to hire illegals are removed, there will be less incentives to hire them in the first place. Mark my word, that will work far better than fines and jail times.

first off socialism happens when the government is either the owner or co-owner of business, not the enforcer of standards, and I do not think he is talking about 'cradle-to-grave" job security either, he is talking about out sourcing which is destroying the middle class in this country. You may not like paying $10 for a tee shirt made in this country but when you buy the 3 for $10 deal, while the owner of the company might live here, the workers making it don't and those jobs are lost to you and me and our fellow citizens and that is far more serious than you paying more...it hurts all of us.

Personally I am in favor of closing all tax loop holes for large companies and corporations and make sure a company who does business in the US pays all taxes it should to the US and not get out of it by having a mailbox in Barbados...BUT I would start by closing those loopholes for companies that outsource American jobs. To claim that they would stop doing business here is absurd, we are the largest economy in the world...they may howl but they won't abandon us either. I think that there should be a cap on executive wages and bonuses...it is obscene what some of these people pull down, and in many cases continue to pull down as their companies tank.
There comes a point when you have got to stop looking out for businesses and start looking out for the people and that is one of the grudges against the Republican controlled congress...people, despite all the rhetoric have, if not been forgotten, then at the very least they have been shuffled to the bottom of the pile. It is not how well that some corporation is doing that is the true earmark of how the economy is doing, its how Joe Blow is doing and I tell ya from what I have seen Joe is limping....wages are stagnate, cost of living is up, benefits are rapidly disappearing and uncurious George claims everything is just fine. F*** the top 2%, do something for the people and making permanent tax cuts that benefit the top 2% ain't it.

Protect our jobs first.

Well, am new to this site, actually my first posting.
Like many issues with ramifications, this one has points on both sides.
On the one hand, America benefits from those folks who come here and work very hard. I think of how difficult its been for poor people who have come here hoping for a better life. They were deemed the scum of the earth and spit upon, made fun of ... all the jokes.
And yet, made the country strong with their hard work.
On the other hand, we are a nation of law (at lest should be). If we have a law on the books, should enforce it, otherwise, why enact law?
So, way I see it, America should decide what nation we want to be. Maybe get off our high horse and admit Americans (some of them) take advantage of the weak and poor just like just about every other nation.
A rather crude saying comes to mind, but won't repeat it Involves a pot and evacuation.

i wonder how much will actually get built?here is an article written before the bill was signed...talks about what companies may get multi million dollars contracts and that fencing as cost much much more than anticipated in areas that a fence is up.

In the 1990s, Hunter secured funding for a shorter fence south of San Diego. At the time, he estimated it would cost $14 million for the first 11 miles. In the end, the segment cost $42 million, according to Sean Garcia of the Latin America Working Group, who proclaimed it a "ridiculous waste of money." And it remains unfinished. Another $35 million was set aside in 2006 to complete the last three or more miles

and another article talking about what lawmakers did after the bill was passed to make sure nothing of real substance will happen....just my view..a couple quotes....

Congress withheld $950 million of the $1.2 billion, pending a breakdown by Chertoff of how he plans to spend the money. It is due in early December, after the midterm elections.

...'after midterm elections'......

Congress also hedged on when a fence would be completed. The law mandating it said Homeland Security officials should gain "operational control" of the border in 18 months. But the law funding it envisions five years. Chertoff has set a goal of two to three years, but only after completion of an immigration overhaul.

it's an interesting article.......

Does this mean I can quit taking my Spanish lessons?

I have my doubts that it will even be built at all.

Tengo Una Pregunta:

100 degree weather, in the middle of the desert, assumedly "low" wages/ compensation....."Who" will be the primary laborers involved in the construction of this wall ?