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Bush Signs Border Fence Bill

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posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 06:37 AM
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Tengo una respuesta

NADIE.



Just in time for elections- bah! Nonsense. This is just to make it look like he's doing something about the borders, thats all.

Politics.
Bush


^ your answer:

Tengo Una Pregunta:

100 degree weather, in the middle of the desert, assumedly "low" wages/ compensation....."Who" will be the primary laborers involved in the construction of this wall ?


[edit on 28-10-2006 by dgtempe]




posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by grover


What hate? Where? I was trying to point out that illegal aliens from other countries pass below the radar. I have personally known several English and Scots as well as German and French who were living and working illegally in this country (in the restaurant trade you meet all types) and they never got the scrutny that Hispanics do, and I have known a good many Hispanics who were far harder working and a greater asset to work with than a good many citizens here.



Grover, you said in your post that Republicans wouldn't have a problem with white, English speaking, Canadians crossing our border illegally in the same amounts the Mexicans do. I'd like to say you are "implying" that all Republicans don't like Mexicans but only white people, but I think it's a little clearer than that. I think that is a pretty broad brush to paint one group of people. I won't play the politics game on this...I know in essence what you mean. Yes, it is more likely that some people in the Republican party would prefer Canadians over Mexicans...but I'm sure there are some Democrats that think the same way. There are only two major parties in the US...to say since you vote Republican makes you not like Hispanics is silly. I vote for Republicans sometimes, but I also sure do enjoy kissing my Hispanic girlfriend and enjoy her family. I don't have any plans to trade her in for a white, English speaking Canadian soon. I don't think you're racist, but classifying the whole Republican party as backing Canadians/Europeans over Hispanics is wrong.

As far as the illegal people from other countries...Look were talking millions of Mexicans versus how many Europeans? That is why they are more scrutinized, they are having a bigger impact. Where I live I don't know of any illegal Europeans (there may be a few) but could find 50 illegal Hispanics by going out to a couple farms. They do work hard and they do have a rough life...but they are also getting free services provided by me. Why do the Mexicans get to come here illegally by the millions while other poor countries don't? I don't care where you are from, be it Europe, Canada, or Mexico...you are not ENTITLED to my country. I welcome you if you have the skills or are being threatened. But we can't let everyone in that is poor because it doesn't work, it will break a country.

People are angry, they don't like paying for illegals, and every culture has a problem when another culture suddenly takes over an area. There is bound to be racists created because they feel threatened. Hispanic people are not dumb or evil, they just need to realize that their culture is taking people out of their comfort zone. Part of the Hispanic culture is great and part of it is "behind the times". It all blends with time and it will all work out, but to open the flood gates to a foreign culture without restraint has never worked. The Native Americans didn't like it, France doesn't like it, Palestine doesn't like it, Rwanda doesn't like it...culture is an important part of our identity. You can't just throw everyone together and force them to get along with either might or love thy neighbor talk. It is a slow process.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by grover
If hundreds of thousands of white, English speaking Canadians were sneaking across the border looking for low wages that no one else wants instead of brown skinned, Spanish speaking Hispanics, you wouldn't here a peep about it from the hard right wing conservatives and Republicans.

Um, grover, if the Republicans don’t like the Mexicans, then why has it taken this long for them to sign a bill to build a fence? This is the opposite of what most would agree that they WANT illegal aliens so the employers that hire them save money. The only reason why the bill was signed is to give the impression that Republicans are doing something about this problem before the upcoming election. The Republicans are many things, but they are not doing this because they are racists.

Wow, did I just stick up for Republicans? Somebody help me get off this ride.


[edit on 10/28/2006 by Hal9000]



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 07:37 PM
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Hal...atomic....whenever possible the Republicans have played the race card for all its worth, ever since the racist elements of the old south bolted the Democratic party over desegration, race has been a calling card with them. Its a matter of record...remember Willie Horton? Remember John McCain's black love child with a prostitute (his adopted Bangledeshi daughter) in South Carolina? Skin color, black vs brown doesn't matter its the old us against them politics and the people in charge of the republican party will play it whenever they can.

Want to stop illegal aliens from Mexico crossing over....spend some of the billions we spend on states that hate us on Mexico and help them to develop their economies more so that everybody has a chance. Hell do that here...we are well on our way to becoming a two tier class system as it is.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 11:20 PM
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Originally posted by grover
Want to stop illegal aliens from Mexico crossing over....spend some of the billions we spend on states that hate us on Mexico and help them to develop their economies more so that everybody has a chance. Hell do that here...we are well on our way to becoming a two tier class system as it is.


It's getting really old trying to help develop economies that are depressed and corrupted. Hell just look at our own. Both depressed and corrupted. And furthermore, isn't it high time we force countries like Mexico to deal with their own economies and labor difficulties by stopping the easy outlet they have in illegal immigration to the USA? I mean really. What, for the rest of the history of the earth, the USA is supposed to send countries like this billions of dollars, only to be thanked by receiving their dregs of society? Homey should not play dats. Cause DATS suck. And frankly, CD's are even worse.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 11:52 PM
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grover, though I’m not quite sure what John McCain's black love child has to do with republicans being racists, you didn’t answer my question. Again, if the Republicans don’t like the Mexicans, then why has it taken this long for them to sign a bill to build a fence? If the reason was racial, why didn’t they start building a fence six years ago when Bush was first elected and the republicans had control of both houses? If they can conjure up a reason to invade another country, surely if they could have come up with a reason to build a fence.

It is because the signing of the bill is a political stunt and not racially motivated.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 05:46 AM
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I cited that as an example of playing the race card in the Republican party. McCain had won New Hampshire in 2000, Bush was trailing. The next primary was in South Carolina. A shadow group "not affiliated" with the Bush campign swift boated McCain by sending out mailings claiming that he was unfit to be president because he had a love child with a black prostitute when in fact the child was adopted from Bangledesh.

There is a deep and abiding racism and homophobia in the Republican party and generally speaking if they can get away with it they play it for all its worth. They can no longer play race like they used to, but they will find suitable replacements wherever they can and illegals fit the bill....they speak another language and they are darker than the average white American.

Of course signing the fence bill was a political ploy...the longer they are in power the more transparent this administration becomes but the fact remains that if these illegal aliens were white and English speaking there wouldn't be so much noise about them...obviously because they would blend in easier, but also, even if their economic impact were the same, the Republicans wouldn't be so "concerned" because of race.

I grew up in the south in the 60's and despite the rhetoric about liberal vs conservative, the real reason the south bolted the Democratic party was civil rights and desegragation and the Republican leadership knew it then and they know it now, and since the south remains their stronghold they are not about to throw away the race card, but since they are actively courting blacks now, the race dejour has become the Hispanic illegal aliens.

When it comes right down to it, America was and continues to be a deeply prejudiced society, if its not blacks, its the newest immigriant who gets the brunt of it....the Irish, the Italians and Poles, the Chinese and Japanese...doesn't matter and the Hispanics today.

[edit on 29-10-2006 by grover]



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by grover

but also, even if its the newest immigriant who gets the brunt of it....the Irish, the Italians and Poles, the Chinese and Japanese...doesn't matter and the Hispanics today.

[edit on 29-10-2006 by grover]



In the main those cited above were LEGAL immigrants and had much more of a legitimate gripe about their treatment.

I'm one of those Republicans you keep trying to paint with your broad brush and your wrong for doing so.

I could really care one wit what race,creed or orientatation an ILLEGAL is, it does not change the FACT that they flouted our laws to get here - in other words they cheated.

Seems to me the whole reason to control immigration has been forgotten by most folks...............one thing its not, is to serve other countries lack of good governing.

It would be very easy indeed to list example after example of democratic race card playing but thats not what this thread is about.

I hear complaining from the "peanut" gallery (congress,not ATS'rs) on the fence as a political ploy however I do not forget the oh so vehemet opposition from the other side of the aisle recently about doing something on ILLEGAL immigration.

All you guys seem to want is the failed status quo or worse yet just open the floodgates and sock-it to the middle class of this country which is overtaxed as it is.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 01:09 PM
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Grover

I'm not going to change your mind on the Republicans because I do agree there are a few racist blow hards in the party. But I don't worship at the Democrats feet either, since I feel there is a fundemental flaw in their thinking; we are not all equal. I don't mean we shouldn't all have equal rights, but there are some people that just are not good enough to get certain things in life. I'm not good enough to run a corporation or fly a space shuttle, but I have put in the time and education to have a life where I can eat and live in a warm house. I want as many people as possible to have that possibility at being "comfortable", but there are limits to how many people get that shot. Only so many people can ride in an elevator, sit in a theater, drive on the freeway, get social security...the country can not support a million people a year coming into our country tax free, and we shouldn't have to. And if you think only Republicans play the race card then I'm afraid you have limited your world view and the truth as to how the world has changed from the 60's.

I'd love for Mexico to be a success...they really should be. Chile is doing it so Mexico can do it. We didn't build Chile's democracy with money, but I'm willing to do that for Mexico, with certain conditions tied to it. Mexico's corruption is its biggest hurdle. Anything that helps Mexico I'm for as long as it isn't throwing money away or just shifting their problems across my border. I'm all for helping Canada too if they need it...both are great allies even if they disagree with us, and more importantly most of us have family ties to both countries. They just need to understand that the US is not just a "country" we really are a superpower that pushes agendas because otherwise we are left listening to China, Russia, or the Islamic World make world decisions. We are going to be the bad guys sometimes.

I think you are being unfair to some people and not understanding human psychology. I've witnessed towns in my area change from small minorities of Hispanics to the whole downtown businesses only speaking spanish. That's going to happen with new immigrants, but to those that remember going to the local ice cream parlor as a kid, now seeing only spanish businesses and low riders playing mariachi music at full blast...it bothers them. I remember in the 1980s seeing hispanic welfare moms with 4-5 kids, no husbands, and still trying to have more...it angred a lot of people who paid for those kids with their taxes; they were abusing the system and people's generousity. And with new immigrants there are more poor people and more crime, but with education and time that changes.

It is NORMAL to be suspicious of new people and sudden changes, we all are like that. You have to integrate people over generations, not in 5-20 years. I don't live in the South but I'd like to think that since the 60's blacks have improved their lives and are more respected. The Hispanic Americans who have been here know that too, it takes time, but they are buying houses and getting good jobs with hard work and education...some of my friends growing up in a small town were hispanic and they are doing great. One is running the table as a female insurance agent, one is a doctor, and another is flat out rich as a real estate agent. But they are all 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants from Mexico...it takes time. And they agree that no immigration controls means a flood of cheap labor and fewer opportunities for future generations; supply and demand. It's all about giving a man a fish for a day or teaching him to fish for life...Mexico needs to learn how to fish.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 07:10 PM
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I don't worship at the feet of the Democrats either...the only reason I continue to vote for them is that voting Republican is for me not an option and third party candidates while desirable are not a viable force as yet and will not be for years to come.

As for painting with a broad brush...I am sorry but I am simply pointing out a historical fact about the Republican party as it is currently constituted today. Do I think all Republicans (or southerns or conservatives) are racist? Of course not but it exists, and has played its part in the party's rise. And, the party leadership has no qualms about using race if the think that they can get away it, just like they are not above using homophobia, fear mongering and playing the 9/11 card when it suits them.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 07:13 PM
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The Republicans didn't though about passing a bill to build a fence until now because like I say before is all political motivated.

After the congress elections are over this bill will be forgoten and will go into oblivion just like many other bills and issues that are exploited for political gain.



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
After the congress elections are over this bill will be forgotten and will go into oblivion just like many other bills and issues that are exploited for political gain.


It's no longer a bill. It's a law and the funding has been allocated.

I can't predict the future, but I see no reason why the fence will be built.

Elections come around every couple of years.

Election cycles do affect policy, but every new law is not the direct result of an impending election and laws are not usually forgotten just because an election passes.



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

It's no longer a bill. It's a law and the funding has been allocated.



But do you know if Bush added a statement to it? before signing?

That is what he does to repeal or change the contents of bills that he signs to be able to change them later on. It’s no uncommon for presidents to do that but he is one of the few that has become very fond of doing in is part of his political power as a president.

Bedside it may be a law but the funds can be redirected any time for other causes making impossible to build the fence at least for the time being.

Like you say we can no predict the future, but if I see that fence build within the next two years I will believe it.

Right now I am skeptical



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 09:17 AM
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Wow what a debate. The usual lines and sides drawn though. A couple of things interest me on this.

Those that are "for" the fence use monetary reasons. The Illegals cost too much money to take care of. The entire aregument seems to come from a financial point. Valid, but what about the greater costs to your society? How much does a lack of medicare cost the average American? What about governmental wastes, inefficiencies and out and out corruption? How much does that cost the American people Vs what the illegal mexicans?

Simply put, this is a non issue. The Mexicans are not the problem, they are just a very obvious scape goat to a problem. (I am speaking in an overall sense, to those living on or by the border I am sure it is execptionally worse - but probably still not worse than what your own government does to you in a cost sense)

Also, not sure what this means, but I saw it over on another website...
Bush's border fence scam

- According to this article, no funding has been in place. No construction date has been set. This reminds me of of retail advertising. Splash some really low price in type 19font, while at font 0.2, inform that the above price doens't include state or federal tax, has been 15% cash discounted and only available to transvestites, who jump on one leg while singing the battle Hymn of the Republic. In other words, it is a blatent lie in all but one, sliver of ground.



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 09:47 AM
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This is the october surprise no? It's in october... people have waited all these years for it... No? Even if it's a scam, the average joe will believe it.



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 06:46 PM
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Yep, you can't sit back on cruise control. You have to keep pushing politicians. So many power games are played in the background, that it's our duty to keep bugging them whether you want a fence or not. It's not someone else's...people who complain on this board better be on the phone bugging their represenatives either directly or calling the media to pressure them. I don't blame the politicians because really their job is to "compromise" not "dictate", so they have to always leave a couple backdoors open when they speak. But then again most of them are lawyers so they are pros at being wordsmiths and actors...you have to corner them with logic.

Wasn't a bid on the fence project won by Lockheed? So I'm not sure if the funding is tied to the bid or if there is a review of the bid still and then a cushion put into the fence building budget for cost overuns (which always happens ha!).



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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who wants to put money down that the sub-contractors will hire illegal aliens to build the fence to keep them out?



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 08:04 PM
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At the same time I kind of hope, and don't hope that happens. On one had it would be both ironic and humorous on the other pathetic and again ironic. Either way this wall will get built and it's a good first step in handling the Illegal immigration problem.

You cant survive by trying to learn how to swim on a sinking ship.



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 08:40 PM
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Text Blacklol...we should all leave and give the land back to the rightful owners...the native americans...they're the ones who truly settled this country, and should be the ones to decide who should leave this so called land of opportunity...and what is up with the bashing of wal-mart? is it from jealousy because one man saw a marketing need, and decided to go for the juglar on it?



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 10:36 PM
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Money is only part of the issue, there are legitimate national security and law enforcement reasons behind a logical immigration laws that are enforced. If the demand for Mexican labor is so high, then we should have the infrastructure and the bureaucracy in place to see that those who are suitable can come here and work.

Somewhere along the line someone decided that cheap labor and illegal status go hand in hand. That is not necessarily the case. And besides that, we shouldn't have a two tiered labor force under any condition.

If Mexicans want to come here and compete in the workforce, then let them, but let them come here legally to do so. The current system really benefits no except the crooks who hire illegals and the Mexican government.

I don't see rank and file American or Mexican receiving long term advantage from the current system.

It could be better; it should be better.



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