Was the Planet Venus a Comet??, page 3

Was Venus a Comet?

I find the controversy this question provokes more bizarre then the question itself. It seems the easiest way to address this is to simply dismiss it outright, denying that it's even possible but this is no answer. The theory of the creation of our solar system is not a fact nor is it absolute, it's just a theory and should be treated as such.

I see a lot of arguments that are good distractions against the original question but a complete waste of time IMO. Personally I am interested in understanding our Universe and find it extremely odd that fundamental questions about our solar system go unanswered. What do we really know about comets and the planet Venus? I have spent some time on this and have learned a lot, for one-there are far more questions then answers found. So what do we know about comets?

Comets are described as "dirty snowballs" originating in the outer solar system. New evidence about comets is fueling an on going debate on what they consist of.

"We discovered that a comet is not really a 'dirty snowball' since dirt is dominant, not ice," said Horst Uwe Keller..."Instead of being spherical like a warm snowball, a comet nucleus is elongated. The physical structure of a comet's interior is defined by its dust content rather than its ice content."

Source-ESA

Even though NASA's Deep Space 1 team has had many problems they have also uncovered some controversial evidence.

...comet Borrelly exhibits distinct jets, yet has a hot, dry surface. The assumption that comets contain water and other ices led Dr. Laurence Soderblom of the U.S. Geological Survey to say, "The spectrum suggests that the surface is hot and dry. It is surprising that we saw no traces of water ice." However, he goes on to suggest that the ice is probably hidden below the crust as "either the surface has been dried out by solar heating and maturation or perhaps the very dark soot-like material that covers Borrelly's surface masks any trace of surface ice".

Source -Wiki Some of the NASA links are no longer working for me, they seem to be having more problems.

Do comets originate in the outer solar system? Information collected from comet Wild 2 show evidence of a different origin.

Early on, scientists found surprising evidence that Wild 2 contained some material from the inner solar system that had been heated to more than 1000° C due to its proximity to the Sun....Now, scientists have been surprised again as further study suggests Wild 2 is made mostly of material from the inner solar system

Source-New Scientist

I would like to point out that some of this evidence of inner solar system origin is in debate but there is more. It goes on to say the distinction between comet and asteroid have become mixed.

Samples of Comet Wild 2 suggest it is made of rocky material, like an asteroid, rather than the fluffy dust expected of a comet....Wild 2 should still be considered a comet, she adds, because it is throwing off gas and dust [it still has a tail] as ice on its surface evaporates in sunlight. But she says the new findings bolster the view that there is no sharp dividing line between comets and asteroids.

Source.

Comets appear to be more asteroid like then snowballs and at least some could have originated from the inner solar system. The one definition that all comets still have in common is a tail.

Was Venus a Comet?

So what do we know about comet tails?
Comet tails consist of dust and gas as a reaction from the Suns radiation but they appear to have more then one tail.

Radiation from the sun pushes dust particles away from the coma. These particles form a tail called the dust tail. At the same time, the solar wind -- that is, the flow of high-speed electrically charged particles from the sun-converts some of the comet's gases into ions (charged particles). These ions also stream away from the coma, forming an ion tail. Because comet tails are pushed by solar radiation and the solar wind, they always point away from the sun.

Source-NASA.

Light reflecting off a comets tail isn't the only thing that can be seen, they also emit X-rays.

A team of U.S. and German astrophysicists have made the first ever detection of X-rays coming from a comet. Their discovery of a strong radiation signal -- about 100 times brighter than even the most optimistic predictions -- was made March 27, 1996, during observations of Comet Hyakutake using Germany's orbiting ROSAT satellite....Still another puzzle is the nature of the physical process that generates the X-rays,...[A] possible explanation is that the X-rays are produced from the violent collision between the comet material and the supersonic "wind" of plasma and particles streaming away from the sun.

Source-NASA

Here is a link to Space.com on NASA's Stardust Mission.
And another link to an article on the Stardust mission from BBC News.

There is conflicting information in some of the links I provided pertaining to comets, however, what we thought we knew about them is definitely changing. They might better be described as rocky material containing frozen gas and water that emit tails of dust, gas and ions.

So where does Venus fit in this classification?
Venus has a tail similar to a comet.

Using satellite data, an international team of researchers has found that Venus sports a giant, ion-packed tail that stretches almost far enough to tickle the Earth when the two planets are in line with the Sun...."I didn't expect to find it," says team member Marcia Neugebauer of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. "It's a really strong signal, and there's no doubt it's real."

Source-New Scientist.

SOHO detected ion streams from Venus.

...the team concludes that the satellite [SOHO] may have passed through three separate streams in the ion tail. Alternatively, it may have been a single filament that was "flapping" in the solar wind. "We don't know if we saw the same ray three times, or three different ones," Neugebauer says...Neugebauer suspects the tail is "a lot of little stringy things" like those of some comets, which can have several ion tails.

Source NS.

If the old, incorrect, theory on comet composition holds then this easily excludes Venus. But what if the new evidence redefines what comets are, would that make Venus a comet? I think we can still dismiss this, denying it's possible... for a little longer.

reply to post by Mogget

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now what you just wrote is plain silly, sorry to tell you, but how can you tell with that much certainty?

Try reading the comments Daz made a few posts earlier (nice post, starred btw). It's being proven more and more that space isn't an electric neutral something, and comets sure as hell aren't dirty snowballs:

Samples of Comet Wild 2 suggest it is made of rocky material, like an asteroid, rather than the fluffy dust expected of a comet.

Source

[edit on 3/11/2008 by KrisFromGenk]

[edit on 3/11/2008 by KrisFromGenk]

reply to post by AmmonSeth

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Your post is ambiguous and misleading. If you are referring to me then I find it pointless and irritating. To clear things up on my part I do not claim to be a "believer" nor is there any reason for you or yours to humor me- I'm good, thanks.

"If Venus was a comet", is the question not Jupiter nor Jupiter's gravity and to debate the possibility of Jupiter's involvement is leading away from the topic, I think it's important to focus on what we do know rather then run off in wild speculation. Besides, I get the feeling you would never consider the original question possible no matter how much evidence was presented. You can believe whatever you like, all I would ever ask from you is to see things for what they are.

It should be apparent from what I posted that there is sufficient evidence from respectable sources to at least give merit to a debate over the possibility of Venus being a comet. This is not proof that Venus was a comet nor is it proof that I believe it was, it does not show how it could have happened or when, where it came from or even if it effected Earth. It simply is what it is, evidence that it could have been possible. If I were to expand on this adding my own opinion I would say that this also shows how blind science can be to evidence from their own experiments that is right in front of their face. But the blind eye of science is another topic.

I hope this helps.

Add: Keep in mind that my post above was only a small part of what I found pertaining to Venus and comets. There is a lot more that I have been spending time on for the purpose to better understand it myself. If I can find the time I would like to put some of it together, as best I can, in a cognitive fashion. The information was not illusive nor difficult to find, I was actually amazed at how much there was that seems to contradict mainstream theories.

[edit on 11/6/2008 by Devino]

reply to post by mikesingh

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Retrograde motion is the apparent looping movement of a planet in it's orbit of the Sun. It is caused because we are also going around the Sun in orbit, and as our line of site is at different angles, the planet appears to have moved in the opposite direction agains the background of stars.




All planets in our Solar System will have retrograde motion, and viewed from another planet so would Earth.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Retrograde motion is the apparent looping movement of a planet in it's orbit of the Sun.

Planets with a superior orbit to Earth's make that apparent looping or wandering motion but this is not the case for inferior planetary orbits like Venus'.

Venus appears as the evening star after sunset rising to about 47 degrees above the horizon and getting brighter as it moves closer to Earth. Then it starts to appear lower in the sky every night until it sinks below the horizon with the setting sun and passes Earth to become the morning star on its way back around the Sun again. The retrograde motion referred to in this thread is Venus' sidereal rotation (axial spin) which is in a clockwise (Retrograde) motion.

The surface of Venus cannot be seen from Earth due to its thick cloud cover and I find it curious that even though Venus does not have a magnetic field protecting its atmosphere it is 90 times more dense then Earth's.

Venus does not possess an intrinsic magnetic field to protect its atmosphere from the solar wind...In particular, the interaction causes Venus’s atmosphere to lose its gases in the form of ionized particles...They are predominantly hydrogen, oxygen and helium ions...ASPERA finally established the composition of the escaping plasma and measured that the escape of hydrogen to oxygen is, indeed, in the same ratio as water.

Source-ESA So what happened to Venus' magnetic field? Did it ever have one and if not then why is the atmosphere 90 times more dense then Earth's? The effects of the solar wind on Venus' atmosphere over 4.5 billion years should have stripped it away by now.


Venus orbits the sun in 224.7 days in a prograde motion (CCW) and radar mapping has determined that its sidereal rotation is 243.018 days (+/-0.18) in a retrograde motion (clockwise).

The synodic alignments of Venus with Earth, called inferior conjunctions, occur every 584 days and what's interesting is at these alignments the same side of Venus faces Earth. Java Applet of Venus Resonance (if the Applet runs fast hit the medium or slow tab)

There is also an 8:13 near orbital resonance with Earth every 5 inferior conjunctions, they are not commensurate as they are off by 2.44 days in 8 Earth years. Orbital information sources from-NASA's Planetary fact sheet and-Allen's Astrophysical Quantities.

Venus makes a pentagram

When you mark these 5 synodic alignments in order of their occurrences (1-5) on a circle representing Earth's orbit and you connect them in numerical order a five point star is made (Pentagram).

Here is a screen shot I took from Celestia showing the 5 synodic periods starting with (1) June 8 2004. The yellow dots represent Earth with the synodic dates, green dots are Venus, and the two circles next to the starting point (1) show the synodic period for June 6, 2012- 2.44 days early. This is an approximate representation.

This synodic pentagram has been pointed out in a previous thread by ViolatorR titled, "The Secret Lives of Venus,"
but replies dismissed this as arbitrary alignments. I want to make it clear that the synodic periods of Venus are measured from the same specific point, closest approach, and the results have to do with the orbital mechanics of planetary alignments and are in no way arbitrary. Venus is the only planet that makes this pattern and the fact that it migrates clockwise 2.44 days every 8 years makes for an interesting cyclical pattern.


[edit on 2/19/2009 by Devino]

Venus Transit Cycles

Venus' orbital plane is inclined to Earth's by 3.4 degrees and intersects currently in June and December (called node points). A transit of Venus in front of the Sun will only occur at an inferior conjunction during a node crossing and this usually happens in pairs separated by 8 years (1 synodic pentagram). Venus Transit Applet.

The transit pairs are separated by long gaps of 121.5 years and 105.5 years creating a pattern that cycles every 243 years (8+121.5+8+105.5=243) making this one of the rarest of predictable astronomical events. For example a pair of transits occurred on December 1874 and December 1882 then 121.5 years later a second pair on June 8, 2004, SOHO Images, and then June 6, 2012 followed by a 105.5 year gap.

For every synodic pentagram, 8 Earth years, the alignments are off by 2.44 days thus slowly migrating clockwise. Imagine this pentagram, after the June, 2012 transit, moving clockwise taking 243 years till the next June transit and completing a full circle in about 1215 years (5x243=1215).

From what I have learned about Venus I would have to say that it is a planet and therefore not a comet even though it has comet like features, Venus' ion tail. As for what I have learned about comets and our solar system I think what is unknown far exceeds that which is known.

It is very close minded to accept any scientific theory as fact especially when evidence continues to keep proving them wrong. Just keep in mind what the current theories have to say about 'what comets are' (i.e. dirty snowballs that originated from the outer solar system).

at 1:50 Nassim shows a comet twice the size of Jupiter passing by the sun. its totally possible that our current planets could of came from elsewhere.

No i don't think Venus is a comet.

reply to post by ugie1028

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Funny thing is I finally finished watching the last 2 hours of Haramein's 8 hour long presentation last night which had that part in it. I wasn't sure what to think of it so I looked for SOHO images from that date and found this. SOHO-comet NEAT-Feburary, 12 2003.

Originally posted by mikesingh
Even if Venus was hit by a huge comet, it would well neigh be impossible for the impact to have made it suddenly start rotating in the opposite direction! The colossal impact required for this to have happened would have shattered the planet to bits instead!

Im no expert but what if a comet was extremely close to Venus coming at it from the opposite direction of its rotation....Could a huge comet have a big gravitational pull that may cause it to affect Venus's rotation...

Found a nice Solar System simulation if anyones interested...you can rotate, check distance, pan etc...

www.lucellan.com...

[edit on 19/2/2009 by booda]

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