DACT F22 vs Typhoon

I have a question for intelgirl or anyone who knows.

How are the DACT sorties going in the US between F22 and RAF Typhoons. I hear that in BVR the F22 cleans up. When carrying external fuel tanks mind you CAPTOR tracked and locked up an F22 at 80km. (so I hear)
However in WVR because the Raptor isn't yet carrying AIM 9X and the typhoons have ASRAAM things are a lot more even.

Anyone have any firm reports..,

I would love to know some facts....

Have a good one

I also heard that F-22 did countermanuever with EF2000 at a US airbase but there is no information unveiled.
If carry external tank, F-22 can be catched at 80km or more close which, does not surprising me. The Typhoon isn't common fighter aircraft. Don't put it beside Mig-29 or other same generation fighters.

All the "I hear" etc... Would it be possible to cite sources - or is this just "hearing" a converation in a pub?

Regards

You can't confirm or cite sources (at least not public ones) for something like this, its just one of those things that you take for what its worth. If Typhoons are training with Raptors I believe what's being said might be close to the truth. In BVR the Raptor would own but in WVR the Typhoon would be better, it has ASRAAM and HMS, the F-22 I don’t believe has the Aim-9X (yet) and it does not have the HMS.

As for the external fuel tank thing, if true then that's F ing impressive, 80 Km is 50 miles, that means an F-22 with external fuel tanks is still going to detect, fire and kill you before you can even track him, Jesus.


[edit on 28-8-2006 by WestPoint23]

50 miles is well within tracking range for the Typhoon, isn't it? That apart, the PIRATE would play a bigger part in such an excercise than CAPTOR anyway and I think I read that the F-22 equivalent of PIRATE was actually scrapped as a cost cutting measure, though I can't vouch for that. *If* true that might give the Typhoon a 'decent chance' in a head on BVR engagement due to the PIRATE plus its own reduced frontal RCS, maybe.

This of course is pure speculation on my part and I'd be fascinated to see how these engagements stack up for real.

Originally posted by waynos
50 miles is well within tracking range for the Typhoon, isn't it?

What for the Typhoon to track the Raptor with a clean configuration? If so then I’d have to say no, however, and this is purely my opinion of course, I’d give the F-22 around 70NM tracking the Typhoon, head on.

Originally posted by waynos
I'd be fascinated to see how these engagements stack up for real.

Wouldn't we all?

Waynos, I think you are vastly overrating IR detection systems. Surely they are passive, and still improving, but they are very unreliable in bad weather. For example F-14 had probably the the most powerfull IR detection system in West (used also on ABL) but it looks like it was not extraordinaly sucessfull, because it was not adopted on current US fighters (at least according to official info US stealth aircrafts still prefer radar - strange because passive system would be ideal for such planes).
It may be good as backup or in situations when you don't want to turn your radar on but it can hardly replace radar on longer distances.

Well Waynos has made my day and replied to a thread I started ...I am not worthy ...LOL
The source of my thread is someone whom I trust from another forum who in the past has known things others only knew later ..
"Apparently" the USAF is paying for the Typhoon time and the RAF may get freebie DACT for their pilots. (they are supposed to be there doing EW testing)
RAF Pilot just went active after completing training on the F22. Would be a bit of a laugh wouldn't it if he flew against his own team so to speak.... USAF jock is due to start with the typhoon training soon or may even have started ..
Waynos do you know more ??

Here is the original source confirmed by my friend

news.bbc.co.uk...

Have a good one

Westy, the 50 miles tracking range was something I took from your comment about the F-22 *with* external tanks, not clean config.

Regards the IRST being overrated, naturally I have no personal experience of PIRATE, of course, but according to the sources I have studied PIRATE represents a quantum leap in IRST capability and reliability and due in part to some kind of 'meshing' with the CAPTOR it can function as the primary sensor at ranges of over 80km from kinetic heating alone. This is what gives me the idea that the Typhoon would have a fighting chance at BVR against an F-22 *with external tanks* as the two systems can combine their information and the radar element can illuminate the target and the PIRATE, meshed with the CAPTOR can take over and continue to track the target with the radar scanner switched off.

I'm no technical bod so I don't pretend to understand it but I doubt its on the plane to fill a hole.

Here's a quote from a Flight article about it (they word it better than I can, maybe you can understand what they are on about better than my ramblings);

PIRATE operates like an emission free electro optical radar, detecting and precisely locating targets, processing images at 24 million pixels per second and feeding the resulting target tracks back to the AIS for fusion with the input from other sensors. It can track multiple targets while searching for others and can kinematically range, identify and prioritise targets. Search range is about 150km

.

Deharg, LOL at the pisstake

I know that RAF pilots have converted to the F-22 and are stationed with the USAF on exchange and that USAF pilots are due to convert to Typhoon, which is what you said, but no more than that.

This is a BIT off topic but if you were to place a fighter 10 miles (say the F-22) out on the tail of a B-2 Bomber, would it pick it up on radar? I always wondered about how stealthy the B-2 is and up to what close range is it detectable by aircraft.

Thanks

That close I’m going to say hell yes. What's interesting about stealth aircraft is their effect on BVR missiles which go active in the terminal phase, now they usually have a quoted range in terms of tracking capability with the onboard missile radar. I wonder how reduced this capability would be against LO aircraft like the F-22 and B-2... but that’s a different topic altogether.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
That close I’m going to say hell yes. What's interesting about stealth aircraft is their effect on BVR missiles which go active in the terminal phase, now they usually have a quoted range in terms of tracking capability with the onboard missile radar. I wonder how reduced this capability would be against LO aircraft like the F-22 and B-2... but that’s a different topic altogether.

Very good point, something I've pondered myself. A relate question is the effect on laser proximity fuses. My guess is that the stealth is less effective against the fuses but any advantage is still an advantage.

Interestingly enough, an autofocus camera won't with a stealth. The first time the F-117s came to Hickam, we were out taking pictures, and my brother tried his Minolta Maxxim camera on autofocus, and the lense kept going in and out from stop to stop. The laser (I think it's a laser anyway) was being absorbed by the RAM and not making it back to the camera for it to focus with.

If you're flying in a hostile zone, BVR missiles launched without full guidance will not be very effective. This is because the aircraft getting shot at will be changing course and altitude to avoid these things. By the time the missile found its targer, if at all, it may not have the energy to hit.

I've been reading up on this at F-16.net. They know their sh** there and what they've been saying is that the Raptor has not been doing well in WVR. This is because it doesn't have the HMS so it can't utilize high-off boreside capability. The ASRAAM is a very good missile with a huge engagement envelope, it makes it easy to get kills in WVR. There's a reason why a dogfight is called "A knife fight in a telephone booth". No matter how good you are, you still might get stabbed. Now if you ask the pilots of AA and AC (the Tiffies) about BVR, they get real quiet. They get their butts kicked in BVR.

That's pretty much what it was designed to do. Kill em in BVR. In WVR it don't matter what you're in, the odds go way down against you. I've heard of B-1s outrunning F-15s at over Mach 1 to escape, and I've heard of F-15s dropping right behind B-1s and shooting them down. (Yeah, the B-1 doesn't have WVR capability, but it proves the point that at that range, anything can happen.)

That's why I see the F-22 Raptor as a very dominent fighter in that the BVR gives it the superiority above other aircraft in that it also is accompanied by stealth characteristics.

Zaphod's right though, and LordofBunnies, when it comes down to WVR, it's solely the pilot's skill to out-maneuver the other aircraft and go in for the kill.

Just like paintball, it's pure skill, a one-shooter can take out a bunch of people with semi-automatics.. all just on skill.

So that's in essence why I feel the F-22 is practically "the Shiznit" for what modern aircraft have to present.

Your BVR missile is only going to be as good as the on-board radar that support it. Kinematics mean bugger all if the mid-course updates don't provide any info for where the seeker should be looking when it opens its eyes. Most active seekers come on at around 5 - 15 nm depending on type and manufacturer. At the lower ranges, even if an aircraft has substantial RAM and stealth design, an active seeker will likely get some kind of return at that range. As for the laser prox fuse, at the ranges they generally fuse at, there probably aren't too many issues that I can see. So, if you have a 30 nm missile, but your radar only detects the target at 15 nm, you're on the backfoot already because the earliest you are launching is 14.5 nm, at which time the missile is probably close to active off the rails. If against an AMRAAM shooting F-22, this is about the time you turn into a bright orange flamey thing anyhow , and he's already flying in the opposite direction at M1.5.

WVR is obviously a whole other kettle of fish. Put simply, there should be no reason to put your 100 and something million dollar airframe in a position where it is at risk from an ASRAAM, Python V or Archer. Unlike in Vietnam where the technology didn't support the ROE for BVR, in the more modern NCW environment, with effectiveon-board and off-board CID technologies, getting an upgrade to hostile isn't as hard as it used to be. As much fun as WVR is, it is going the same way as pop attacks and low level ingress.

Thanks Waynos

I really didn't mean it like that. You remind me of me... 20 yrs ago ( giving away my age here ) I read everything there was to read ( all books no computer ...lol), I didn't have a favourite coat I wore to read the books nor did I frequent airfields to spot reg numbers etc... BUT what I did was read all the aviation magazines I could ( cost me an arm and a leg). I have one of the original copies of Aircraft Illustrated with the pics of the Liberators over the Romanian oilfields.
I could tell you all the stats and specs of everything in the NATO and WARPAC arsenals. Then I got married had some kids threw myself into a career (didn't do too bad there actually ...LOL). So when I see you quoting away with all the numbers at your fingetips so to speak, I am kind of jealous really so my meaning was one of pure admiration. Keep up the good work....

P.S. Why do people keep on about supersonic speed without AB as if it is something new ..... My favorite warbird of all time did that the EE Lightning..

Didn't do it for long as range sucked but hey ... nowt new here lad ....( I am from Rochdale - and I know you know where that is .....)

Have a good one ..

Originally posted by Deharg
I have a question for intelgirl or anyone who knows.
How are the DACT sorties going in the US between F22 and RAF Typhoons. I hear that in BVR the F22 cleans up. When carrying external fuel tanks mind you CAPTOR tracked and locked up an F22 at 80km. (so I hear)
However in WVR because the Raptor isn't yet carrying AIM 9X and the typhoons have ASRAAM things are a lot more even.

Wait wait, please wait....
How do you know or where did u get this information that F-22 will be detected at 80 km if it carry external fuel tank? May I know how far F-22 can catch EF-2000 on board?

I wonder what the detection range of the APG-77 radar is for the Typhoon given that amongst other external ordinance on the EF2000, is at least one drop tank?

Note there has not been any bar room gossip about the F22A being detected by PIRATE. Surely if PIRATE is as good as it is cracked up to be, there would be plenty of rumours. Nothing seems to have made the jungle telegraph yet.