Originally posted by SteveR
That is most probably true, but another part of the problem is that some of your corporations are guilty of paying very very low wages, so much that someone with dependents needs to work two or more jobs. If we had an increased minimum wage, and then made welfare an independant system with specific criteria, that might fix the problem.

I might start a flame war with my following opinion and I can also see how it might be insensitive, but I'll chance it.
I'll mention the words "personal responsibility".

I have to agree that some corporations/businesses pay their employees very low wages, BUT I think that the individual has the power to not have to subject him/herself to such treatment. I think the problem stems from people not learning personal responsibility early in life, and failing to properly prepare themselves for life. In other words if you know you don't have the education to get a better-paying job, work toward receiving that education. It might be difficult to do for some, but it is possible. If you still can't get a better job, do everything in your power not to have children until you can properly support them. I feel that there are many people out there who have the option of making better choices, but they don't.
I think the welfare system gives too many (but certainly not all) people the permission to screw up, making a joke of personal responsibility. I don't know if "permission" is the right word,.... it's more like "Damn I'm pregnant, but I don't have a job. Oh well, now I can receive welfare!" There are literally thousands of women/families who continue to give birth to children just so they can keep their welfare checks. They KNOW that if they choose, they won't need to get a job for many years to come, because they're comfortable living the way they are. Not everyone needs a castle to live in. I've also known plenty of immigrant families who continue to take advantage of Welfare, holding jobs illegally in addition to receiving their welfare checks.

There are a lot of needy people out there (the disabled, even the elderly) who deserve help, but there are far more people out there who take advantage of it, leaving less for the deserving ones. Something definitely needs to be done. In addition schools need to stress personal responsibility/cause and effect in a big way, because many parents certainly don't seem to be doing that job these days. I bet that if there was nothing to fall back on, plenty of people would re-think how they lead their lives. But, as always, I could be wrong.
Although this post might make it look unlikely, I do see the issue from both sides. Everyone makes mistakes, and I understand that. I just wish more people wouldn't look to welfare as the first/only solution to their problem.
I come from an immigrant family who came to the U.S. with nothing (we couldn't even speak a word of English), and built itself up to a very comfortable living. It took a few years, but through hard work and determination, it happened.
Sometimes there are uncontrollable circumstances, but I definitely file those under 'help-deserving'.

quotes by SteveR

"That is most probably true, but another part of the problem is that some of your corporations are guilty of paying very very low wages..."

REPLY: Thank you. Well..... for a person flipping burgers, for example, the wages start about $7.00 to $11.00 per hour; not too bad for that type of job. Of course, this is a "starter" job, and hardly a career choice. Seems somewhat high to me, but it's what the market will bear. That's just off the top of my head. I can't comment about others you might be thinking of.

".... so much that someone with dependents needs to work two or more jobs.

REPLY: Usually, the wages of one person basically pays the taxes on their spouses
income. Taxes which go to pay for all of the Marxist Social programs we've (I've) been talking about. Check out your paycheck. Look at what is taken out every week or two, then figure the total for one year. Most people could pay for their own insurance and health care, and have some left to sock away for their kids college. Or they could make another mortgage payment on a rental house.

If we had an increased minimum wage..."

REPLY: Lowering the minimun wage hurts the lowest wage people, and also hurts employers, and the economy. Home Depot, and others, is a good example of this. With all of the government, state and local regulations (and taxes), plus the union requirements, it cost too much in some areas. So, Home Depot switched to self-checkout machines. There's usually one "human" to each 4 or 5 aisles, where there used to be a human for each aisle. Sure, the machines cost a bit, but technology reduces that cost more and more. So, no health care, social security or unemployment insurance costs for the machines; so they, in effect, pay for thenselves.

Sure, that one person got a wage increase, but I doubt it's very consoling to those who were put out of work.

and then made welfare an independant system with specific criteria, that might fix the problem.

REPLY: Yes, this WOULD fix the problem, but it should be on the state level, and keep the Feds out of it. There HAVE been changes made, where welfare-to-work limits the amopunt of time a person gets "free" money, but has to find work eventually. It's not perfect, but it's a start.
However, even at the state level, corruption is rampant because of those who not work if they can help it; they're hooked on the government teat. They will vote for those who give them the most money, or "free" stuff, even if that politician is not the best choice for everyone's interest; It's "screw everyone else, I want mine", when it's not theirs to begiin with. It belonged to someone else. A classic example of involuntary servitude; which explains taxes, too, actually.

Hitler, probably the most hated politician of the past century, took Germany out of the sanctions and economic doldrums effected by bankers over his head. He did so by establishing trade and barter associations within Germany. He got Germany on its feet in the short space of three years.

Maybe there is something to be said for trade and barter over single-minded and simple compliance with corporatist policies and economic domination of the macro-markets?

Look at "Ithaca Money." Google it. They're doing okay in upstate New York, despite lacking dollars in their economy.

I mean, it's a thought that can sprout like mushrooms in the grass.

Originally posted by joshai2334
for trade and barter over single-minded and simple compliance with corporatist policies and economic domination of the macro-markets?

I'm sorry, I'm not an economist. Can you translate that into English?

[edit on 8/7/06 by SteveR]

Are you familiar with barter systems?

Or, do you simply work for a corporate employer and accept whatever conditions that employer deems sufficient for you?

This is the choice.

You are basically alluding to a high rate of self-employment, which I know there was at the start of the 20th century.

Self-employment--yes--trading services without utilizing cash money.

I hear there are about thirty-nine barter systems in the US which do this, without money being exchanged, for some percentage of a business's or individual's labor.

No money involved? Interesting.. I'll have to look it up.

Originally posted by johnlear
What bothers me the most about our current situation is the hate-mongering against arab/muslims fostered by most of the talk show radio hosts. Day after day after day you hear everyone of those guys talk about those 'dirty rotten muslims', and those 'dirty rotten arabs', who hate our freedom and hate our way of life.

Each of us chooses what we are willing to listen to. Given the number of Americans who fill their eyes and ears with reality shows and passively accept what they are told, I believe that the proportion of people in America who think about and talk sensibly about issues is actually very small. And this is sad to see.

Maybe that part and parcel of the situation : most people don't care. The few who do care get beat on by the majority. And it's going to take an act of God to change all this, due to that same fact--most people don't care--even when faced with true facts.

Originally posted by joshai2334
Self-employment--yes--trading services without utilizing cash money.

I hear there are about thirty-nine barter systems in the US which do this, without money being exchanged, for some percentage of a business's or individual's labor.

REPLY: New York and New York state are broke for the same reason as Cleveland, Ohio, Louisiana and New Jersey; Liberals and Marxism!
"The amount of positive economic activity in any given area is inversely proportional to the number of Dems running it."

By the way, even bartering is subject to federal taxation, and, being NY, probably state taxes, too. You work for a farmer, and he pays you with, say, a pig, you pay taxes on the market value of the pig.

[edit on 9-7-2006 by zappafan1]

There's no way to discuss anything with an individual who only speaks from dogma.

Barter works because it's impossible to trace, if no records are kept.

Due to the fact that some people want the Gubmint to step in and take over more responsibilities than it is organized or lawfully funded to accept, we have a plethora of "people programs" that probably ought to be handled at the "charity" or some other level.

What has that problem got to do with the problem that our current leaders never tell the truth about anything--on either side of the aisle ?? The whole reeking Federal system is saturated with false and fabricated information. What problem can be solved this way?

Do you want to fixate your gaze on "Liberals" and hang THEM all because Truth has no place in Federal Service? Will that solve your problem for you? I doubt it. Will leaving the Conservative LIARS in place be an okay way to fix this?

Isn't there an affirmation at the beginning of every single court case : "I swear to tell the Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" in use, for a reason? Shouldn't our representatives and public servants be telling the truth also? Well, why not?

Originally posted by joshai2334

Barter works because it's impossible to trace, if no records are kept.

Agreed. I can trade my iPod for a phone with someone, and not pay taxes on it. Bartering is a great system, IMO.

Due to the fact that some people want the Gubmint to step in and take over more responsibilities than it is organized or lawfully funded to accept, we have a plethora of "people programs" that probably ought to be handled at the "charity" or some other level.

Might be a little off topic, but I just find it funny that the NFL is a 2 Billion dollar industry. $2 Billion! Kind of a waste of money, don't you think? Lets not even get into the movie industry....

What has that problem got to do with the problem that our current leaders never tell the truth about anything--on either side of the aisle ?? The whole reeking Federal system is saturated with false and fabricated information. What problem can be solved this way?

Until our government understands that there should not be left wing or right wing, but instead a pair of wings, there will always be conflict within our own system.

Do you want to fixate your gaze on "Liberals" and hang THEM all because Truth has no place in Federal Service? Will that solve your problem for you? I doubt it. Will leaving the Conservative LIARS in place be an okay way to fix this?

Isn't there an affirmation at the beginning of every single court case : "I swear to tell the Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" in use, for a reason? Shouldn't our representatives and public servants be telling the truth also? Well, why not?

Well put. I would love to feel that the government is always telling the truth fully. It is almost as if they don't even trust their own people they are trying to protect. Rather silly, no?

Again, we put these people into office. We do have a voice. I still hold firm beliefs in this species, that we can achieve many unbelivable accomplishments. I just want all of us to work together.

This weekend was ridiculous (side story). I was at a bar with some friends, and this girl mentioned that she was headed to Japan with the US Air Force. We got into a discussion over the war, and some jerk stranger butted in, saying stuff like, "**** America, I hate this country! I am the most evil person you will ever meet. I just want to fight people." He was the craziest and most violent person I have met in a while.

Why be like this? If you do not like this country, then get the heck out. I don't want you here. Why cause trouble just for the sake of causing it? So frustrating.