The American Hate. MHO

Originally posted by steve99
It's always nice to see what the liberals are thinking. I thank God I'm a conservative.

Need a social label to categorize yourself? Maybe you should take the apporach I do. I'm a human being. I am unique. I have conservative tendencies and I have liberal tendencies, and neither "party" aligns with my value system. I support issues, not parties. If people would start doing this, they would be a lot better off.

Personally, I laugh my butt off every time I hear someone say, "I'm a conservative, and I support the President." Really? I'm a fiscal conservative and in no way is George W. Bush a conservative. In fact, Bush puts the "tax and spend" Democrats to shame. I'm also a small government conservative, and in no way is George W. Bush a conservative in that regard either. The contradictions are quite amazing, yet the "conservatives" still support the guy, even though he goes against their base values. I don't understand this, nor why it happens. Any "conservatives" want to step up to the plate and explain this one? Steve99???

Originally posted by hogtie
Tell you what. Spend a week in jail. That will tell you all you need to know about how the real world, where nice thoughts are a luxury born of the freedoms in the US and are not quite on the same level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Countries act just like individuals.

Ironic you should mention spending time in prison after saying how great the United States was. You are aware that we incarcerate more people (per capita) than any other country on the planet? And we have the gall to talk about how free our citizens are?

dgtempe : I remember one of Mr. Bush's quotes that might make the
Presidential Hall of Fame. He was discussing Iraq, and policy.
It went something like this :
"We must take time to restore chaos".
I rolled on the floor!

Originally posted by SIEGE
dgtempe : I remember one of Mr. Bush's quotes that might make the
Presidential Hall of Fame. He was discussing Iraq, and policy.
It went something like this :
"We must take time to restore chaos".
I rolled on the floor!

Yes, we can all remember real laughers from our nearly infallible presidents. One of my personal favorites is the infamous "depends on what the meaning of is is". That's the one that had me ROTFL.

I'll have to agree with zappafan and hogtie on just about everything they've said thus far.


The U.S. has been hated by the rest of the world for many decades, and that was before Bush.
Bare with me as I try to write a little story here. My views may be somewhat skewed, but I'm having FUN with it! I hope you can look at it in the same way. I'm not a good writer, so don't be too harsh on my writing ability/inability.

I equate America to that rags-to-riches neighbor (let's call him Sam) for whom almost everything seems to go right, especially after he separates himself from his controlling Mother. He's got the cars, the money, the power, and you'd like him to help you get into the same business, have him partner up with you, etc. This is the guy you want on your side.

Then you've got neighbors around you who have at one point been in the same position as Sam, but they've lost it years ago. They just can't seem to get back into the business anymore, not with as much power as this particular guy. They are now forced to deal with Sam, and they have to be somewhat nice to him if they want to earn a proper living. Of course some of Sam's neighbors are jealous of his success, so they'll try and look for any dirt on Sam to bring him down to their level.

Then comes a time when Sam picks up dealings with a distant rich neighbor of his (let's call him Saddam) who has been misbehaving. He'd taken special notice of this neighbor after someone from that particular house had taken credit for murdering one of Sam's relatives. He became angered and demanded this person be brought to justice.
In the meantime he noticed that some neighbors had been complaining about Saddam for a long time, but aside from issuing him notices of complaint, nothing was being done. Saddam had been abusing and killing some of his own family, and he had been hiding illegal/unregistered weapons. Sam, already upset by what happened, decided to issue one last complaint notice with a fair warning. We all know what happened after that. The Police came, took Saddam to jail, and began searching through the house for the murderer as well as the illegal weapons. Sam realized that these weapons could be found by the wrong person, and may even be used on the people of his neighborhood.

Well,... it turns out that some of Sam's neighbors had business dealings with Saddam, and thanks to Sam those deals would now come to an end. They began to accuse Sam of 'illegally' breaking into Saddam's house, without the support of the entire neighborhood. When the police was having some trouble finding these well-stashed weapons (because Saddam was no dummy, and his house was quite large with many secret passages), Sam was labeled as "the trigger-happy Cowboy". Although these particular neighbors had despised Sam for years, this was their opportunity to make Sam look like the bad guy. Never-mind what Saddam's crimes were, the attention of the neighborhood was on Sam now.

There were rumors spreading that Sam may actually have killed his own relative only to blame it on poor Saddam. They claimed Sam wanted a piece of Saddam's wealth, and that was the only reason he accused this poor man. Well, soon these rumors spread from one house to another, and many people came to believe that Sam was the bad guy. The problem was that Sam had always lent a helping hand to his fellow neighbors when he could. Although he hoped he could bring the murderer to justice, he also hoped he would be able to help Saddam's family live a better life. Unfortunately this would turn out to be a more difficult job than he had imagined. Saddam's family/relatives were fighting amongst each other, and didn't know how to share equally the wealth that Saddam previously controlled. Not to mention the fact that the murderer contributed to this strife, making Sam's undertaking even more difficult. Some of the jealous neighbors enjoyed watching Sam struggle. His slow progress really fueled their cries, and even the neighbors who had before supported Sam in his venture were now trying to look away. They started to think that maybe these opposers had been right all along,.... after all, if Sam doesn't want any of Saddam's wealth, why does he continue to stick his nose into Saddam's family strife, and spend so much time inside Saddam's mansion?

Some of Sam's family as well as a few neighbors volunteered to help him out. Unfortunately some fell in the line of fire. Their deaths were used to make Sam look terrible. It was said that he was sacrificing the lives of others for his own selfish reasons. Even some of his own family members were asking him to quit, yet he felt that he had to go on. He felt he had a responsibility to his neighborhood, to try and rid it of danger. Of course not everyone could see it the same way, and it was all the better for those who had been jealous of his success all those years. They taunted Sam's family members, saying their family was blood-thirsty,... saying they were greedy jerks who didn't give a hoot about the rest of the neighborhood. Well, some of Sam's family took those taunts to heart, and felt it was necessary to not identify themselves to others as supporters of Sam even though they were part of his family.

Sam continues to struggle on the property which formerly belonged to Saddam, and some of his jealous neighbors continue to use this situation to turn others against him.

The End.

Originally posted by The Iconoclast

Originally posted by hogtie
Tell you what. Spend a week in jail. That will tell you all you need to know about how the real world, where nice thoughts are a luxury born of the freedoms in the US and are not quite on the same level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Countries act just like individuals.

Ironic you should mention spending time in prison after saying how great the United States was. You are aware that we incarcerate more people (per capita) than any other country on the planet? And we have the gall to talk about how free our citizens are?

Maybe there are more people per capita in jail, because our law enforcement is more effective than in other countries. Most of those people caused themselves to be incarcerated. I'm not denying that there are innocent people who ended up in jail,... our system is not perfect,.. BUT I bet most of those in jail are guilty of a jail-worthy crime. Just my opinion of course.

2manyquestions, wow, what a diatribe. You are WAY off of the mark though. As a neighbor I haven't seen the level of the dislike for your government EVER. The Clinton years, Bush 1 years, Regan years, Carter years, Nixon years come close though. Sorry to Ford, he didn't have years.

If Bush keeps it up we'll stop sending hockey players down south.

As to the people, most of my closest friends online are American. I've got 3 kids, can't travel much.

Sorry man, sounds like paranoia to me.

Originally posted by intrepid
2manyquestions, wow, what a diatribe. You are WAY off of the mark though. As a neighbor I haven't seen the level of the dislike for your government EVER. The Clinton years, Bush 1 years, Regan years, Carter years, Nixon years come close though. Sorry to Ford, he didn't have years.

If Bush keeps it up we'll stop sending hockey players down south.

As to the people, most of my closest friends online are American.

I've got 3 kids, can't travel much.

Sorry man, sounds like paranoia to me.

I didn't say ALL the neighghors disliked Sam, I said a few of the jealous ones did. Each neighbor is supposed to represent the government of a country, not all of it's people. As I explained before my "diatribe", I was only having fun with it.

Originally posted by Mouth

It is our own fault, we put these people into office. We elect the president, who then forms his cabinet. But to hate all of us collectively, is a pile of horsey poo. There are a lot of good, loving people in this country, who would not wish harm to anyone.

Now with that being said, back to the war, why didn't President Bush, after coming up dry in Iraq with WMD's, why did he not front his campaign against terrorism with this statement: "I want to save these people from themselves. We live in a country where suicide bombings is not an issue, where testing biological weapons on civilians doesn't even go across our minds, where women have the same rights as men.

We did not elect this pResident. The Republicans cheated.

The demonized humans leading this nation right now are crazy, insane and culpable. The day will come when they will hang by the neck until dead; and we will watch it because we saw them violate and trample not only our own laws--which they agreed and consented to abide by--but also because they have violated international, human and cosmic laws.

Bush is not going to get away with anything, and neither will his father, nor will the other mercenary Synarchists who are driving genocide and tyranny.

Justice will return and so will sanity. If I couldn't believe and see that in my future, my life wouldn't be worth living. Gamesmanship doesn't cut it; and neither does deceit, as a way of bringing up our families.





[edit on 29-6-2006 by joshai2334]

You have voted hogtie for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month:

You think the guy in the trailer park doesn't care about what's going on in the middle east? According to many democrats in DC that is exactly who is doing the fighting. Think about what you said. If you are poor you don't know enough to make informed decisions. I guess this is where the govt needs to step in and either make them not poor or tell them what to think. Or can it be that they are not informed by what you think the correct forms of media are. You sound very well intentioned, but that's a pretty insulting thing to say about "some guy living in a trailer park working at a peach stand".

A-friggin MEN brother.

I also voted for Mouth before I saw his statement and this rebuttal, but Mouth you are doing a great job, too, so I do not regret the vote for you as well.

This is the best discussion I've seen yet.

Originally posted by iqonx

What does the quran call for?

Execution of people who convert is not in the quran but is in another source outside of it called the hadeeth.

[edit on 29-6-2006 by iqonx]

Excellent points, and I intend to reply, but it will take some work this evening, and I'll post it AM US time.

Also, you brought up the next point I was going to make about the Bible and Torah calling for the same thing. If nothing else, I may be forced to learn!

[edit on 29-6-2006 by hogtie]

Originally posted by The Iconoclast

Ironic you should mention spending time in prison after saying how great the United States was. You are aware that we incarcerate more people (per capita) than any other country on the planet? And we have the gall to talk about how free our citizens are?

Was going to say it but 2manyquestions beat me to it. We aren't talking political prisoners here. Do I agree with all the laws? No. But they were broken out of choice.

By the way 2manyquestions, I liked how you put all that together. How many times has "Sam" sent material aid to Iran during earthquakes, yet at the same time "Sam" is a warmonger?


[edit on 29-6-2006 by hogtie]

Originally posted by TarzanBeta

I also voted for Mouth before I saw his statement and this rebuttal, but Mouth you are doing a great job, too, so I do not regret the vote for you as well.

This is the best discussion I've seen yet.

Thanks. Maybe all of us can get our brains bent a little.

Originally posted by Mouth

I All this conspiracy talk about 9/11, possible government involvement, I mean, can we please get real? What is wrong with us? Why can't we do something?

I just want people to love and respect each other. Is that so hard to ask?

Mouth, I want to apologize for coming off so strong. I just want you to know that it wasn't your original post that got my watch wound up. It was the build up of other posts and I just needed to vent. You replied most, so you caught the sarcasm. I won't stop debating, but I'm sorry if more venom went your way than should have.

Reading through a few of these posts people have talked about only wanting peace, not likeing Bush ect.

First Your opinions of Bush and the war in Iraq are based off poor facts and popular opinion. You watch the news about war and think you know everything about whats going on when its far from the truth. First off the Media reports a vast majority of the bad things happening in Iraq and none of the good, except the things that are obvious that needs to be reported in example Zarqawai, prob the only good news you have heard from Iraq in a long time. The Media is quick to report on what ever will give them ratings. If they report good things people won't bother watching, because life would be good. Now onto people who make there opinions based on what ever everyone thinks because they are either too stupid to make up there own damn mind or to scared to look like the outcast. #ing grow up. If you want to talk politics first off get the facts look at everything, not just what is said, make an opinion on what is good for everyone. The way I see it... We went over there to free a country from an oppresive dictator, and to build a new government... which by the way does not happen over a period of three years! Have some patience for god sake, and give these people a chance to get on there feet before you start talking about pulling troops out, and leaving them vulnerable. Things are improving in Iraq and it isn't nearly as bad as the media makes it out to be. Its not good, but it is improving.

People who only want peace. There are only two ways this will ever happen for you. The first way stop watching the news and go live in the woods far away from anyone, and sing and dance with the birds and lizards or what ever.

The second way is wipe out Humanity. Humanity strives off of conflict, and will not go on without it, ever. You can see it all through history, hell you can see it in Elementry school with Gossip and fights where kids should be learning and having a good time at recess. The fact is there are too many diffrent people and too many diffrent beliefs in this world which conflict with one another. The sooner you relize this the better off you will be. Now I agree I want peace just as much as the next person, and I will do what I can to get it, but at the same time I will not let this desire stop me from doing what is right!

ohhh and the answer to why people hate the USA... several reasons. Jealousy, We kicked there ass, and the Media.

I geuss this is it for my rant for now.... anyways have a wonderful day and YAY for America!

Originally posted by denveralex

We kicked there ass,....

Denveralex...i know that we caused an enormous amount of unnecesary death and destruction but I wasn't aware that we kicked anybody's ass. If we did, they may not have noticed.

Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by denveralex

We kicked there ass,....

Denveralex...i know that we caused an enormous amount of unnecesary death and destruction but I wasn't aware that we kicked anybody's ass. If we did, they may not have noticed.

I was referring to past events not the Iraq war. I agree that things should have been handled a bit diffrent in this war ie: Shock and Awe in my opinion really served no real purpose, and in the end made more enemies than friends. I agree with the war, but believe it could have been done alot diffrent.

I may not be a veteran member of any sort... and I by no means think I'm better than anyone, for the record.
but... den, it is common courtesy to read all of the posts in a thread before ranting in such a manner.
EVERYTHING IS AN OPINION. External sources, they're opinions. They're just more respectable opinions. For you to tell us that all of these is just our OPINIONS, no #, sir. For you to imply that what you say is gospel is putting yourself on a level above us. The only level I can think of above humankind would be... God.

Are you a god?

By the way, this is my normal tone, I am not trying to offend, simply making a point which is quite obviously MHO.

Originally posted by johnlear

Denveralex...i know that we caused an enormous amount of unnecesary death and destruction but I wasn't aware that we kicked anybody's ass. If we did, they may not have noticed.

In March of 2003, the United States and Great Britain, along with the support of 48 other nation invaded Iraq, enforcing at least 7 UN resolutions (and yes WMDs have been found. If you think they're "old" I dare you to crack one open in around friends and loved ones). In April 2003, the official military and former regime of Iraq ceased to exist. That's never been done before against an army that modern and that numerous. So to all the men and women serving in our armed forces: you kicked ass! And you're still kicking it so the rest of us can be safe to say and do what we want (within the law). Thank you!

Sorry guys, I only post at work, don't get alot of time at home to be on the computer with the wife and all. I will try to cathc up as much as I can.

Ok, first off, Someone, I think it was zappafan, a few pages ago referred to me as a hippie from the 60's or something. Well, There was a major reason for that movement... you know, that ridiculous catastrophe called Vietnam? Something like a 60 second average life expectancy. I can see alot of similarities between that war in this one, especially when discussing justification. What makes us think we are acting justly (in the eyes of the government)? Leave that one for discussion.

originally posted by hogtie
Mouth, I want to apologize for coming off so strong. I just want you to know that it wasn't your original post that got my watch wound up. It was the build up of other posts and I just needed to vent. You replied most, so you caught the sarcasm. I won't stop debating, but I'm sorry if more venom went your way than should have.

fair enough hogtie. I respect other people opinions, and am always more than happy to hear different angles. I have come to the conclusion that no matter what two people you put in the same room, they can always find one thing they can agree on.

originally posted by denveralex
First Your opinions of Bush and the war in Iraq are based off poor facts and popular opinion.

I mean, do we have to over the laundry list again for all the bad things that has happened during this presidency? You think that you can equate this presidency to any other in the past 5 decades?

Have some patience for god sake, and give these people a chance to get on there feet before you start talking about pulling troops out, and leaving them vulnerable.

My patience ran out once one of my friends came home from iraq with shrapnel scars, boasting a kill count of 47, 10 on them children that were running at him with grenades. children with grenades.

People who only want peace. There are only two ways this will ever happen for you. The first way stop watching the news and go live in the woods far away from anyone, and sing and dance with the birds and lizards or what ever.

Shall we ever be so lucky?

The second way is wipe out Humanity. Humanity strives off of conflict, and will not go on without it, ever. You can see it all through history, hell you can see it in Elementry school with Gossip and fights where kids should be learning and having a good time at recess.

You know what, have you ever head of the saying, history repeats itself? as you say here, you can see it throughout history. Our species (not race) has always been warring throughout the times, and trust me, we are not going anywhere unless we get to understand each other. You honestly think 1000 years from now we are still going to be fighting over this little rock? I surely hope not. It really is the stubbornness of the masses that is holding itself back.

originally posted by 2manyquestions
The U.S. has been hated by the rest of the world for many decades, and that was before Bush.

I think you might want to check yourself on that statement, since "many decades" is alot of time, and the rest of the world has NOT hated us for that long.

In any event, I really just want to live a life without a nuclear warhead vaporizing me and my family (live near NYC). I want to grow old, have grandkids that can hear stories of gas prices below 99 cents a gallon, and feel confident that my race (ahem, species) is headed in the right direction, which IMO, is to the stars.