Edit: removed double post

[edit on 30/6/06 by Mouth]

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
I may not be a veteran member of any sort... and I by no means think I'm better than anyone, for the record.
but... den, it is common courtesy to read all of the posts in a thread before ranting in such a manner.
EVERYTHING IS AN OPINION. External sources, they're opinions. They're just more respectable opinions. For you to tell us that all of these is just our OPINIONS, no #, sir. For you to imply that what you say is gospel is putting yourself on a level above us. The only level I can think of above humankind would be... God.

Are you a god?

By the way, this is my normal tone, I am not trying to offend, simply making a point which is quite obviously MHO.

Firstly I want to apologise if I offended anyone by not reading through every single post I will go through this second and do so, but I didn't exactly have the time to at the time, and wanted to voice my opinion which by the way is an opinions based on experinces. While serving in Iraq and still currently serving in Iraq I have read the news from CNN, and Fox news, and I am dumb founded. I do not place myself above anyone, I am no god, but I have seen things first hand. I have talked to Iraqis who are glad we are here! Who have a better chance in life because we are here. Many of them are going to school as I type this message, some of them wanting to be Doctors, and some of them vets. With Saddam in power there was nothing motivating people to excel to push themselves... and now they have motivation... There economy is rebounding and improving everyday. They are getting more money for jobs, healthcare is better than it has ever been, and continues to improve as Army docs train them up and supply them. there are numerous things you don't hear about this is just a couple things... I base my opinions off hard facts... things I have seen with my own two eyes. Heard with my ears. News is supposed to be neutral... and I can tell you its not... news is all about ratings. Now tell me... where did you get you facts?

Originally posted by Mouth

Ok, first off, Someone, I think it was zappafan, a few pages ago referred to me as a hippie from the 60's or something. Well, There was a major reason for that movement... you know, that ridiculous catastrophe called Vietnam? Something like a 60 second average life expectancy. I can see alot of similarities between that war in this one, especially when discussing justification. What makes us think we are acting justly (in the eyes of the government)? Leave that one for discussion.

First off Vietnam is completly diffrent them OIF. With Vietnam we decided to go there to orginally help out the french in there war, because (Surpise, surprise) They couldn't handle it alone. OIF We went there for WMDs and to free the Iraqi people from an oppressive dictator. Not to mention the casualties 47,424 soldiers died in Vietnam, with OIF we have just passed the 2,500 mark 3 years later. This is not the next Vietnam... if anything it is the next Korean war, where we still are and South Korea has been very successful by the way and mainly thanks to the United States rebuilding the country

I mean, do we have to over the laundry list again for all the bad things that has happened during this presidency? You think that you can equate this presidency to any other in the past 5 decades?

Tell you what... pull up a list of all the good things he has done and then the bad and put them togeather.... done? Now do that with the presidents for the last 5 decades, and then you tell me. Stop focusing on only the bad. There are many things Bush has done right aswell. No one is perfect and there will be mistakes.

My patience ran out once one of my friends came home from iraq with shrapnel scars, boasting a kill count of 47, 10 on them children that were running at him with grenades. children with grenades.

I have alot of respect for your friend, infact I work with alot of these guys, I am a medic in the army and do what I can to keep other soldiers alive.... and there is one thing that has never changed... Almost every soldier I have served with over here has always been proud of what they are doing, and for you to use your friend who was wounded in action as an excuse for your patience running out.... I will just say you have no idea... and along with most people they aren't willing to open there eyes. Talk to your friend and ask him if he isn't proud of what he has done here. aside from the obvious horrors of war. Helping these pepole.

You honestly think 1000 years from now we are still going to be fighting over this little rock? I surely hope not. It really is the stubbornness of the masses that is holding itself back.

Your right we will prob. have already destroyed ourselves by that point or we will be fighting over some other little rock.

Actually, as that is an outside source that looks at in THEIR opinion, that very well may not be what Mohammad meant.....

REPLY: It was from a website of ex-Muslims, who used to belong to Islam (literally), but no longer are.

Think about how much Bush refers to this work being "God's plan".....what God would approve of the unnecessary deaths of thousands?

REPLY: God called for an end to evil.

".... oh yes it was probably the best because it was prepared"

REPLY: As are they all; but it was true, and he wrote a bit of it. Anyway. I see nowhere in The Constitution where it says eloquence is a requirement to being president.

Even the bible and torah have punishment for leaving there religon.

REPLY: At least for Christianity, and most others, the punishment is not death.

"....Bush puts the "tax and spend" Democrats to shame. I'm also a small government conservative, and in no way is George W. Bush a conservative in that regard either.

REPLY: Every single issue Bush has started or increased funding for has been paid for, and more, by the rate reductions. Remember ex-president pantload raved about how he cut government jobs, some 300,000 of them, and all military; much to our detriment.

The spending for the drug program for instance (for one), which I don't agree with, would have been done by the Dems, too. You and I think alike in many aspects, though we don't always agree. I consider myself a Constitutional Libertarian Conservative, and I put the Constitution first for a reason.

"....You are aware that we incarcerate more people (per capita) than any other country on the planet? And we have the gall to talk about how free our citizens are?

REPLY: True, and many of those shouldn't be there (say, for instance, people who choose to smoke flowers), but we also have the freedom to obey the law; those who choose to be "free" in all aspects.

"We must take time to restore chaos".

REPLY: Happens with every war. It wasn't any different when Saddam was in power.

We did not elect this pResident. The Republicans cheated.

REPLY: Every single recount showed you are incorrect.

The day will come when they will hang by the neck until dead.

REPLY: Please hold your breath.

we saw them violate and trample not only our own laws----but also because they have violated international, human and cosmic laws.

REPLY: 1- OK, I'll bite; Which laws were trampled.
2- We are not accountable to any laws but our own.
3- Human Laws?????
4- Cosmic laws? No comment.

Ok, first off, Someone, I think it was zappafan, a few pages ago referred to me as a hippie from the 60's or something. Well, There was a major reason for that movement... you know, that ridiculous catastrophe called Vietnam?

REPLY: I was there, and America won EVERY SINGLE BATTLE in theatre. The atrocities Kerry spoke of never happened. The VW war was lost right here at home, thanks to academia, politics, media and law (the same things that are now ruining this country).

The "movement" you mention, especially those on college campuses, was started by Communist infiltrators on said campuses. This is known thanks to papers released after the fall of the wall.

With Vietnam we decided to go there to orginally help out the french in there war

REPLY: Yeah.... those crazy French. 8^) But, we also went there to end what was the beginning of Communism in that country,with the result being the same (almost) as when we left Iraq in the beginning of this war.

My patience ran out once one of my friends came home from iraq with shrapnel scars, boasting a kill count of 47, 10 on them children that were running at him with grenades.

REPLY: And you would do what?.... let them keep running at you? I ask that unless I missed your point.


[edit on 30-6-2006 by zappafan1]

originally posted by 2manyquestions
The U.S. has been hated by the rest of the world for many decades, and that was before Bush.

I think you might want to check yourself on that statement, since "many decades" is alot of time, and the rest of the world has NOT hated us for that long.



Mouth, you have a good point. It was not a good choice of words on my part. Maybe I should have said "a major part of the world".



[edit on 5-7-2006 by 2manyquestions]

You really seem like one of those netvocates, paid to spread agenda. *sigh*

"The atrocities Kerry spoke of never happened."

Completely incorrect, I've heard several stories from ex military guys, (not personally) about the horrific bloodshed in Vietnam. You talk like it doesn't matter.

As for the president.. "Every single recount showed you are incorrect. "

Nope, what do you have to say about diebold, and Karl Rove's management of the campaign?

Now this.. "Every single issue Bush has started or increased funding for has been paid for, and more, by the rate reductions."

Ofcourse, that explains that extreme deficit, and destruction of the surplus funds

quotes by SteveR

Completely incorrect, I've heard several stories from ex military guys, (not personally) about the horrific bloodshed in Vietnam. You talk like it doesn't matter.

REPLY: I was there. Considering what was going on there, could atrocities have happened? Yes. And, not unlike what is going on now, when you have women and children with grenades/bombs on their person, you..... what? Go up to them and ask?

Nope, what do you have to say about diebold, and Karl Rove's management of the campaign?

REPLY: Karl Rove didn't puch every chad, or cast every vote. So.... Diebold has a Republican as it's CEO; the other maker of voting machines has a Dem as it's head. I believe it might have been Cynthia McKinney who went to Floriduh and, no matter ho hard she tried, she couldn't find one, single dis-enfranchised Black voter. The Miami Herald (not a bastion of conservatism) was in on a multi-million dollar investigation of the votes. Result? Bush won.


"Now this.. "Every single issue Bush has started or increased funding for has been paid for, and more, by the rate reductions."

Of course, that explains that extreme deficit, and destruction of the surplus funds.

REPLY: The "surplus" was minimal, but the numbers juggling sure made it sound good.
The "destruction" of the (minimal) surplus just might have something to do with recovering from 9-11. In fact, it DOES!.

The current deficit is 2.9% of GDP, thanks to the rate reductions. More money is flowing into the Gov't. coffers since the late 80's, when it tripled. The past three months, more money is going INTO the government than it has payed out. The top 3% of "the rich" pay over 85% of our taxes.

Originally posted by zappafan1
The top 3% of "the rich" pay over 85% of our taxes.

Source.

How is funding 'Health and Human Services' unconstitutional? The mark of a civilized society is how it takes care of the young and old. What would you prefer? More money into the military? You sound like the type.

I'll also point out that for 2007 the Defense budget has increased alot. I'll find the source later, I just remember reading this recently. Feel better?

"How is funding 'Health and Human Services' unconstitutional?

REPLY: Nope.... I just looked. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it say you have a right to health care, welfare, medical assistance, an education, a house, etc, etc. These are all Marxist/Socialist programs, and are totally the opposite of the ideals/ideas this country was founded upon. I don't see in there where, once I reach the age of 65, I have to right to take/steal someone else's hard-earned money to pay for medication/services I might need. (Which I won't do.)

The mark of a civilized society is how it takes care of the young and old.

REPLY: So, whatever happened to personal responsibility? The ability and foresight to judge and plan for your own future monetary and medical needs and requirements is the mark of a society containing people with Liberty, Freedom and also common sense, the latter of which is sorely lacking in many folks. The billions of dollars that fund those social programs, and the government agencies running them, would be better spent if each person would be able to put it into their own medical savings, insurance plans, etc.
I know I'll need car tires next year, and I put money aside for that every couple of months.

You must feel very ripped off

I've heard quite alot of people who talk like you, and you know what they all share in common? They're living very comfortable lives. Afterall, why would you support or understand concepts of welfare if everything is "fine" for you.

If one day your life broke down, you'd be telling a very different story indeed.

quote posted by SteveR

You must feel very ripped off

I've heard quite alot of people who talk like you, and you know what they all share in common? They're living very comfortable lives. Afterall, why would you support or understand concepts of welfare if everything is "fine" for you.

REPLY: "very comfortable lives" is a very relative term, and means different things for different people; kind of like a "living wage", which is different for everyone.

My "comfortable life" (again, a relative term) is the result of educating myself, having common sense, and busting my butt for 30 years, many of which contained 55-70 hour weeks (and still does); ain't Capitolism, Freedom and Liberty grand!

If one day your life broke down, you'd be telling a very different story indeed.

REPLY: Not that I have to explain to you or anyone, but if something catastrophic happened to me medically, I have it my Living Will that once my capitol and assets are gone, at no time will I accept money or assistance from any local, state or Federal social program that obtains its funding from taxes, to extend my life in any way shape or form. It's called "doing the right thing. That's the American way, and too few people abide by it.

(my edit for content)

[edit on 6-7-2006 by zappafan1]

So you resent the fact that some of your taxes go to helping people in need?

quote by SteveR

So you resent the fact that some of your taxes go to helping people in need?

REPLY: No, not at all. I resent the fact that my money is taken from me un-Constitutionally, at the point of a gun. The needy are much better served through altruistic means and public/private donations, without government intervention, because the majority of the money goes to support that same intervention. It also promotes big government and the corruption of the voting system by allowing people to vote for those who will give them "free" money.

I agree in setting up welfare as an independent system, but to remain effective and controllable it will and always has been a government function.

by SteveR

I agree in setting up welfare as an independent system, but to remain effective and controllable it will and always has been a government function.

REPLY: I recall seeing a report that of every $5.00 that goes into the welfare system, $3.00 goes to the administration of the program. That hardly refers to the word "effective" (except for those who run the program).

There has and always will be the "have's" and "have nots"; "the wills" and the "will nots" and the "do's" and the "do nots." In the past 35 years America has spent almost $7 TRILLION dollars of tax money to "end poverty." What we now have is $7 Trillion dollars worth of poverty. People will do what you pay them to do; if you give them free money to be low-income, and they are content being that way, they will continue to be that way. It's a no-win situation.

Only the mentally and physically disabled should receive assistance; everyone else works. I'm certain that if you set a cut-off time for welfare, most Americans would be doing jobs that are now being done by illegals.

That is most probably true, but another part of the problem is that some of your corporations are guilty of paying very very low wages, so much that someone with dependents needs to work two or more jobs. If we had an increased minimum wage, and then made welfare an independant system with specific criteria, that might fix the problem.

Originally posted by johnlear
What bothers me the most about our current situation is the hate-mongering against arab/muslims fostered by most of the talk show radio hosts. Day after day after day you hear everyone of those guys talk about those 'dirty rotten muslims', and those 'dirty rotten arabs', who hate our freedom and hate our way of life.

I hear what you hear, but much of this is directed at those who are committing the deeds, not ALL Arabs.

My opinion on why you hear so much of this, is because you hear SO LITTLE of that on mainstream TV news. it's as if they are afraid of calling an enemy what they are. They seem to have lost sight of who we are fighting against. Yes, yes it could be said a million times that the Administration has also lost sight of that as well.

But let's be clear on who the enemy is: It's the radical terrorists, many of them Islamic, who threaten ALL non-muslim people and civilizations. It's war, plain and simple to them. It should be to us as well.