Behold a White Horse

Ben,

Do you agree with everything queenannie says about God and spiritual things? If not then have you ever pondered how you can both claim to have the Truth as revealed to you by God? If your "Truths" do not match up, then who is the liar between you two? Obviously you can't both claim to have Truth yet that Truth contradicts or is God perhaps a liar? Telling you one truth and queenannie another?

Also, by rebuking another person because you believe them to be wrong in "judging" others you need to realize that you yourself are also judging. One cannot claim others are wrong for judging and believe they are free from being judgmental. The question to ask is if you are judging the actions or the person and not the person and are you doing so according to Biblical principals?

Jesus did not say, "NEVER judge anyone" but rather in Matthew 7 He said to not judge another in a hypocrital manner. There is righteous judgment and unrighteous. Scripture is the final word, the last court of appeal and if not we have no guide or standard of Truth. In order to know a line is crooked one must first know what a straight line looks like, correct? Truth is exclusive, it is not all inclusive.

Thanks

Originally posted by UnrealZAIf your "Truths" do not match up, then who is the liar between you two? Obviously you can't both claim to have Truth yet that Truth contradicts or is God perhaps a liar?

Oh come on. Most spiritual and/or religious beliefs can be equated to 'personal beliefs' or 'personal truths' - i.e. relative to the individual. Just because you have two or more different opinions does not mean that each opposing view has to be a 'liar.' Some of the beliefs may actually be the same as the absolute truth, but it cannot be proven to everyone...each individual comes to terms with what they believe the truth is or is not....there are no absolutes in that. If two opposing views believe in their heart their spiritual path (or lack thereof) is the right path or right view for them, then good for them and pray that they may not condemn other opposing views or become murdering extremists. There are no liars here, just different view points.

Truth must be exclusive, it cannot be all inclusive.

There can be relative or subjective truths but never can Truth be relative. I have a favorite ice cream flavor, a favorite style of music, movie, car, etc. Yet this is a "personal" truth and it is true for me alone....well perhaps others share some of them also BUT that does not make it absolutely true for everyone everywhere.

Absolute Truth is true for all people at all times, everywhere.

You stated:

Oh come on. Most spiritual and/or religious beliefs can be equated to 'personal beliefs' or 'personal truths' - i.e. relative to the individual.

So this is then your personal belief, that all spiritual beliefs are relative to the individual?

Some of the beliefs may actually be the same as the absolute truth, but it cannot be proven to everyone...each individual comes to terms with what they believe the truth is or is not....there are no absolutes in that.

Are you absolutely sure that there are "no absolutes in that" ? What you have done is sought to deny absolutes by making an absolute statement.

If one states, "There are no absolutes" they have contradicted themselves for they have made an absolute statement. You can't get around Absolute Truth for by denying it you confirm it.

God is the source of Truth. If I make a claim that God gave me a revelation but another also makes the same claim but their revelation does not agree with mine what then are we to make of those claims? We can't both be right for Truth can only be exclusive, not all inclusive. My question to Ben and queenannie is valid for I did not call them liars but asked them which one is the liar for they cannot both claim to have Truth revealed to them by God yet they disagree.

Absolutes govern all people at all times. 2 + 2 = 4 is true for all people everywhere, even if they deny it. It will be such after you and I die. This though is not what's meant by "Truth is never all inclusive". What's meant by that is there can only be one Truth, not many Truths (Capitol "T" indicating Absolute)

A cannot be both A and B at the same time.

To claim that truth is in fact relative denies it being relative and again confirms Absolutes for if truth is relative it must then be relative for all people at all times, everywhere thus making it an Absolute. To disagree again confirms Absolute Truth for if truth were truly relative this board would not exsist. We would all be content with our own relative truth.

It has been said, "What's true or right for you may not be what's true or right for me" I can then reply, "I agree, that's why I claim you are wrong and by your own words you must agree with me" If they disagree then their worldview of truth being relative falls apart for they have contradicted themselves. Relative truth cannot be lived for a moment as the basis for a worldview. It crumbles under contradiction.

I appreciate your reply.

UnrealZA,

Trust me...I fully understand the relative/subjective versus absolute/objective trains of thought and have thought about this many times. I do NOT disagree that there is an absolute truth in the spiritual sense - in fact I think there is. I DO think that each of our personal truths are relative/subjective...I understand that you are going to state that I am making an absolute truth statement when I state this, but I am not - when I state these things that I believe, I am stating my personal view/opinion at this point in time - i.e. my subjective/relative truths.

It may be true that any person's truths are in fact the same as the absolute truth or they may be other than the absolute truth....but he/she will not know which way their subjective/relative truth leans...as it is relative to him/her.

I used to get frustrated when I witnessed people blindly following what I thought of as dogma. Not because I thought there was anything necessarily wrong with the dogma in question...more so because they thought any opposing view was 'damned' and they were showing their true nature in every day life (ruthless, backstabbing, hateful, hints of evil, etc...) yet they were stilled 'blessed' because they believed in their dogma...they did not follow it, but they believed they were ok just by stating they believed it. How could they KNOW they were right and how could the act they way they did….that frustrated me.

But THEN I had many periods where I thought about truths and these subjective/objective points of views. I came to believe that any truths that someone feels to be true are actually faith based when you look at it in the realm of subjectivity. Again, their truths may or may not match up to the absolute truth, but it is true to them nonetheless. After seeing ‘truths’ in this frame of mind, I no longer got so upset with people that I thought before were ‘blind’ followers…I understood personal truths in the realm of subjectivity....i.e. Faith.

The issue I took with your post was the forcing of a ‘liar’ issue when neither side should really have to justify this in that type of fashion. I can believe what I believe and you can believe what you believe, and I can fully understand you have your own beliefs as I hope you would do also. I do not know which side, if either, is absolute. No matter how much someone believes his/her truths to be true, it is still subjective and he/she cannot confirm fully that their truth is true, except by faith. Again, this is not an absolute truth I am stating; it is my personal relative truth. I hope that makes sense to you.

Now if subjective/objective frames of references turn out to be absolutely not true (subjective and objective do not exist), then everything above no longer applies and I will have to ponder a little longer.

Best wishes….but please don’t push one side’s opinion to call the other side a ‘liar’ – not cool in my subjective opinion

ratboy,

I understand where you are coming from but again....I did not personally call anyone, either Ben or queenannie, a liar. Again I am asking them which one of them they believe to be lying?

Perhaps you missed it but I stated that since God is the Author of Truth, meaning He has no sin, hence He can not lie, and both claim they have been revealed Truth by God, then should not both agree fully? Yet if their "Truth" does not agree then which of them is in error (or a liar)?

Lastly, there are tests for Truth, so it can be known.

UnrealZA,

Originally posted by UnrealZAI did not personally call anyone, either Ben or queenannie, a liar. Again I am asking them which one of them they believe to be lying?

I understand this...however, I still do not believe one side has to equate the other as a lying...just a different view is all.

Perhaps you missed it but I stated that since God is the Author of Truth, meaning He has no sin, hence He can not lie, and both claim they have been revealed Truth by God, then should not both agree fully? Yet if their "Truth" does not agree then which of them is in error (or a liar)?

I understand this also. But in subjective terms, it does not apply because the one side experiencing the truth different from the other is relative and hopefully that person is able to empathize with any other views...since those also will be relative. However, your argument becomes true if they both experienced absolute truth, unless that absolute truth is different for each individual (or groups) - i.e. God determines one revealed truth is appropriate for one and a different revealed truth is right for another...this removes absolutes for the all and puts in its place individualized absolute truths. I never thought of this until now...but maybe with an infinite potential such as God, there are an infinite realm of absolute truths...hmmmm....hurts the head! I may have to set some time to go over this thought. Anyway, to make your statement true, I think there has to be several layers of IF...THEN...ELSE statements...I don't think we need to go there But I do understand where you are coming from.

Lastly, there are tests for Truth, so it can be known.

I would love to know these! I do not doubt one can experience absolute truths, but I am not sure how that can be proven to anyone else or even to that one person on a subjective level. And how can one bring an objective truth into a subjective realm and still be able to confirm it is an absolute truth.


All in all, I am glad you posted most of what you stated (I still disagree with one side having to claim the other side as being a lying...lol) because it brought up these subjective/objective thoughts again. Bravo!

EDITS: Ugh...spelling and the layout....I had issues...lol.
[edit on 21-8-2006 by ratboy]

[edit on 21-8-2006 by ratboy]

[edit on 21-8-2006 by ratboy]

[edit on 21-8-2006 by ratboy]

Actually, as far as I know, what Ben understands and what I understand is the same.

Neither one with the whole entire picture, of course...but nothing in disagreement that I am aware of.

Of course, Ben will have to give his answer, as well; as I am only speaking for myself and what I know at the moment.

Oh yeah, and I know two other people that have received the same from God as I have...they don't post on this board.

There is complete unity between those two, and me, concerning 'spiritual truths.'

And I haven't know them very long, either...what they believed and understood, came before we all met. But they received it from God, and not their own minds or some religion.

Originally posted by GreatTech
queenannie38, what do you believe in?

The Living God is the King of the Universe.

What is the Mission Statement of your life?

I don't know. I'm not the sort to plan ahead...it's evil, remember?

Besides, God's got things lined out for me, so you'd have to ask Him.

2 plus 2 = 6 .... how is this ? Two Couples n both woman are pregnant = 6

got you ! LOlove n luck etc ! Ave Maria ! 13yo Mistress Madonna Mary ! 8/22 Queenship of Mary ! 125 days to Christmas ! 151 day-old Fetal King Jesus !

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Edit: in answer to 8/21 post of UnrealZa:

Absolutes govern all people at all times. 2 + 2 = 4 is true for all people everywhere

[edit on 21-8-2006 by georgejohn]

Originally posted by ben91069



Hiding in what corner? Could you be more clear as to why I am now hiding behind something? I have only said one thing about you in that you judge others from the outside as if you can possibly see the inside of another. Now if you claim to know the hearts and minds of everyone else, you are truly gifted and are probably squandering it on a message board.

You want to know what kind of tree you are looking at, check the fruit. It's pretty simple. Your fruit is deception.

I doubt my beliefs would teach you anything, since they are meant for me and not for you. If God had meant them for you as well, then you probably wouldn't be judging others, but obviously they are different truths.

I have learned things from Annie but not any truth. I am not aftraid to test the spirit or judge the fruit of a tree.

Say what? If it is clear to you, then I need say nothing. It is clear to me that you want me to say something to use against me, for that is your nature.

Like I said, I see the fruit of the tree. Deception and false accusations.

Originally posted by queenannie38
The Living God is the King of the Universe.

And the name of your god is?

[edit on 21-8-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by UnrealZA
Ben,

Do you agree with everything queenannie says about God and spiritual things? If not then have you ever pondered how you can both claim to have the Truth as revealed to you by God? If your "Truths" do not match up, then who is the liar between you two? Obviously you can't both claim to have Truth yet that Truth contradicts or is God perhaps a liar? Telling you one truth and queenannie another?

Our core truths are the same. In this, she knows what I know. Not everything she says or knows makes sense to me and this is not unusual, because everyone is not given exactly the same information for their own conviction. It is like two auto mechanics - one may be good at the mechanical aspects of engine repair and the other may be better at engine system diagnostics, but they are both classified as "mechanics". The same is with revelation. No two people are given the exact same spiritual gifts, but they can both be called. Do you ever recall the discourse on spiritual gifts and which one is held as the most useful?

Also, by rebuking another person because you believe them to be wrong in "judging" others you need to realize that you yourself are also judging. One cannot claim others are wrong for judging and believe they are free from being judgmental. The question to ask is if you are judging the actions or the person and not the person and are you doing so according to Biblical principals?

Yes, I do realize this. In fact it is unavoidable to not judge anything, but let us ask ourselves, did not Jesus also judge the Pharisees for being judgmental? Did he rebuke them for breaking the law or for the fact that they were (just as us) sinners and still finding faults in others? This is why I tried to make it as clear as possible that I was not judging his beliefs, and that he should not judge others, although you are technically correct as this is a catch 22. But what are we to do, sit by idly and let people claim that they are correct and everyone else is wrong, or just point out that this logic is flawed. This is as far as I can go with it. In fact if no one used any discernment then ATS/BTS would not have a purpose.

Jesus did not say, "NEVER judge anyone" but rather in Matthew 7 He said to not judge another in a hypocrital manner. There is righteous judgment and unrighteous. Scripture is the final word, the last court of appeal and if not we have no guide or standard of Truth. In order to know a line is crooked one must first know what a straight line looks like, correct? Truth is exclusive, it is not all inclusive.

And I agree with this. If by judging someone else who judges is being hypocritical then you too are judging and we now have two dilemmas of the same case do we not? I don't consider telling someone to quit judging others to be contrary to the truth, when it is one of the fundamentals that shows if you believe or not that all sins have been forgiven. Now if he claimed to be a Satanist, I wouldn't be worried about his words, because whatever they believe would be his business, but when one tries to emulate the truth that Christ spoke and then judges others who have not denied Christ, then I do think if I am moved to do so, I should say something. I think the problem lies in the fact that anything (Sun Matrix) does not understand spiritually he can only take at face value of the words of Annie's text and not any further than that, but that is just my opinon. Instead of keeping an open mind that she may just know something that he doesn't and have patience and a serious inquiry into the meanings of her statements, it is immediately discounted as false because he doesn't know about it or understand it. Then he verbally says that she is a liar and a few other things. To tell you the truth, there are many things that she knows that I haven't fathomed yet, but I do know she agrees with one thing that the Kingdom of Heaven stems from - all sins have been forgiven. Seek first the Kingdom and all things will be added.

Originally posted by UnrealZA
Truth must be exclusive, it cannot be all inclusive.

UnrealZA, I know you responded to my thread about absolute truth and you said this same thing. Knowing that many faiths mirror others in their essential message, don't you think that God has the power to make truth both inclusive and exclusive?

It seems contradictory, but it is not. Take for example your favorite ice cream. Your truth says one thing, but anothers says something else, but the truth of God says that with the truth of Love, all things are acceptable and therefore salvation extends to all regardless of their personal beliefs. To love God is to love one another. If you do this, you accept anothers faults unconditionally and have believed in both the absolute truth of God and the personal truth of your neighbor at the same time. It finds and believes in the personal truth of another no matter how offensive they are because that is the salvation God desires from us. The Kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness. Knowing what this statement truly means tells one that dogmatic beliefs and personal truths are not what is important, but the truth that all are saved, which grows faith, hope, and love.

Originally posted by georgejohn
2 plus 2 = 6 .... how is this ? Two Couples n both woman are pregnant = 6

got you ! LOlove n luck etc ! Ave Maria ! 13yo Mistress Madonna Mary ! 8/22 Queenship of Mary ! 125 days to Christmas ! 151 day-old Fetal King Jesus !

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Edit: in answer to 8/21 post of UnrealZa:

Absolutes govern all people at all times. 2 + 2 = 4 is true for all people everywhere

[edit on 21-8-2006 by georgejohn]

Not sure if your ranting is ever serious. Your rebuttal fails in the sense that you yourself are untruthful in your addition. If you knew that the two women were pregnant then you would have added 3 + 3 = 6. Or perhaps one has twins, the other triplets.....yadda, yadda, yadda.

So 2 + 2 still equals 4

Ben

Thank you for your reply, much appreciated. I am right now pretty much brain dead and to reply right now would be in error as it deserves a fresh mind. I will re-read it tomorrow and properly reply.

queenannie

I would appreciate your reply to my early question of how do you know Jesus is not God, did the Holy Spirit reveal this to you?

ratboy

Thank you also. More tomorrow.

OMG... just look at what a silly/spoiled brat you become when your 'absolute' is presented with a into infinity reply... and thanks for taking it further... now we have 2 plus 2= 8... two couples and both woman have twins ! omgosh !




Notice how no-one seems to want to answer my 13yo Man/Woman comments mmmmmoses said that u are a man or woman then !... and how about the 1 and 1/2 BILLION + Babies murdered since 1973.... !

by UrealZA
Not sure if your ranting is ever serious. Your rebuttal fails in the sense that you yourself are untruthful in your addition. If you knew that the two women were pregnant then you would have added 3 + 3 = 6. Or perhaps one has twins, the other triplets.....yadda, yadda, yadda.

2 in view, silly boy or is it girl ? now calm down but you know the story, jailer/killer [??] n as my other self JC said, 'whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you've done unto me'... now think about that !

LOLove n Luck etc... Ave Maria !... Infinity

[ ohhh happy Queen's day Annie 8/22] n everyone else

Edit: the 'quote' is from UnrealZA !

[edit on 22-8-2006 by georgejohn]

georgejohn,

Your posts make little sense and do not contribute anything. Therefore I choose to ignore you.

Thanks for your attempt though

It's all in your 'nick'...to the sense-less, common sense makes no-sense...!

Just as most of this 'foolish' generation, that is well on it's way to being turned into 'chiped' Cybogs and has been 'programmed' to kill all the ones who are into the Truth by their 'satanic' masters in their 12yrs of school as 'kids' and more years of schooling/progamming until 'they' get 'their' dunce square cap n black robe and a nice long hours work/job and just enough 'colored paper money' or computer digits to bring up a new generation of kids/goats to become new 'satans'.....

It's a pity but so-many have 'chosen' many eternity's of hell until they come into the Infinite

The wise shall understand but the 'foolish' shall continue their silly/stupid ways of 'death'............

Still the babies are being murdered and used as 'health' food and the 'teenage' man/female raped of their true passion by the religious/political system of the 'devils' who have 'chosen' to be the 'chosen people' of 'choice'...

Lolove n luck etc... Ave Maria ! Her Royal Highness ! with Joseph the-son-of-David... of Infinity

Georgejohn

You know I love you!