N. Korea seriously believes they can beat the US.

Originally posted by DalairTheGreat
an to the people who are saying crap like wars arnt fought like they were 1000 years ago....thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard

plus do you know what the north koreans are...there ASIAN, there not afraid to die for the country. americans get jump an gungho when one person get taken hostage u take a north korean hostage garenteed hes try to kill as many of u before u kill him. those guys wont go dont with a fight... they got honor to protect

Read the full post before commenting por favor.

And what??? So every Asian out there is willing to die for their country? We must be confusing Japanese Bushido code during WWII with the rest of Asia. Remember, Communism failed in Asia because the Asian people didn't want it, only North Korea, Vietnam, and China are communism from what I understand.

Ok, tell me here, in the past there have been only two forms of imaginable combat, Sea Warfare, and Land Warfare. Today there is a third, can we guess which third that is? You guessed it! Air Warfare.

War is not fought the same way it was 1000 years ago. Gee the Atlantic Wall the German's built sure as hell proved it isn't.

You're not accounting for all factors my friend, war is very different today, but it results in the very same ending as ever before, death and destruction, that much remained the same, now how we come about it and on the scale that we go about it is completely different.

However like I've said, there are times when War does resort to the basics, and then we are fighting like we were 1000 thousand years ago.

And lets not use the "They're willing to fight to the death argument" because no one goes into battle expecting to come out alive unscathed, if you do, you're a damn fool. Expect the worst, Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will.

Now, American Public does matter, in the past it has played a crucial, crucial role in the outcome of many wars, no excluding Vietnam. However that can be overcome, just don't show the American Public what's going on. Censor the war, and the average American's view stays the same "Lets get those dang fools.'

Any war Media has played a role in has ended in a tragedy because people don't like to see war, so don't show it to them. The public is as maniupulative as anyone wants them to be, we're giving the public way too much credit or not enough to know what's right, because they will never judge what they don't see first-hand. Lets not forget the Silent Majority neither, those that voice their opinions believe it or not do stand for the majority of the public, they stand for a minority.

Today however, wars can be ended just as fast as they were started, the technology exists, and sometimes Technology is all you need, and others, the basics of survival is what you need. Doesn't always work, we've seen it, but it doesn't work because we try attacking too many things at once. Vietnam war failed for one of two reasons:

1)The American Public didn't support it because it was widely televised, people for one of the first times got to see how bad war truely is.

2)At the time, we tried taking on way too many challenges at once, trying to get rid of domestic problems, fighting a war against communism over seas, upholding the peace in our hemisphere, there are only so many things a dollar can do.

I'm not trying to say the North Koreans are failures, I know they're good fighters, and like all other adversaries, well most of them anyways, they will probably put up one hell of fight, I'm just saying that I'm expecting to see a Western victory.

And lets not expect a war to be dogpiled on as so many people are asserting, if a war backing up North Korea against the Westerners is against Chinese priorities, China won't jump in, each country does what is best for them, not what others think they will do. At this point it is hard to say what will happen, only time will tell.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
And lets not expect a war to be dogpiled on as so many people are asserting, if a war backing up North Korea against the Westerners is against Chinese priorities, China won't jump in, each country does what is best for them, not what others think they will do. At this point it is hard to say what will happen, only time will tell.

Shattered OUT...

China will jump in, because that is what is best for them. This is a crucial part of what I see as an issue of total ignorance on the part of the West when it comes to knowing what really is going on and is at stake in the Korean Peninsula.

You still haven't answered my question about what exactly has changed in warfare. I'm not disagreeing with you, but time and again we are seeing the same principles rear their ugly heads in just about every war, things that could have very adverse implications in more violent wars. Not to mention we haven't really employed our technology to its proper extent (hence the force-multiplier vs. the force argument I made).

BTW, I also believe the Combined Forces would defeat a DPRK-PRC invasion.

You didn't read my post, I asserted that with the addition of Aerial Warfare, war is now fought differently.

What ignorance here? No ignorance here, I never said China won't pile in, I said that it's not safe to conclude they definitely will because in the future things might change.

Shattered OUT...

whats the shattered out thing all about? just wondering

What I think shatteredskies meant by saying that Asians are willing to die for their country is that the North Koreans have a better reason to fight to the death than the Americans. The North Koreans are fighting for the reunification of their people, fighting for their homeland, their motherland, and they have the damn will to do so. The American soldiers, however, are fighting another tiresome war far from home...

You see what I'm saying? The North Koreans are willing to fight to death to reunify the Korean people... they see the U.S. as an imperialistic nation keeping the Korean people from becoming one again and they have a very strong will to fight against that.

You guys have got to be joking if you think old-fashioned martial arts would stand a chance against modern weaponry. The Chinese tried that with the Boxer Rebellion against the British, and that ended horribly.

If China jumps in, they will side with the United States. They are economically tied to the United States, and historically, countries have always sided with those that they were economically tied to. China isn't going to try and amass an army against the U.S. to support North Korea; if the U.S. decides to wipe out the N.K.s, they'll do so with China's approval most likely.

Times are changing. The Chinese economy used to be much smaller and they were stricly communist. Now that they are utilizing capitalist methods and are tied in much more with the United States, they aren't going to side with N.K. over the U.S.

As for Vietnam, the U.S. could have ended Vietnam very quickly. Lyndon B. Johnson would not allow the North to be attacked. When it was finally attacked, it ended the war pretty quickly. South Vietnam could have been saved early on had Johnson let the military do its job right.

Another tricky thing was the N. Vietnamese went into Cambodia, which wanted to remain neutral. The U.S. respected this neutrality for years, but the N.V.'s used it as a base of operations to attack U.S. troops. The U.S. military could not retaliate on Cambodia, and thus the Vietnamese forces remained relatively safe.

Because of that, the powers given to the President were changed. Now, no President can do such a thing to the military. When Gulf War I came, the U.S. military went and wiped out Saddam's resistance forces. When the current war started, the military went and wiped out all of Saddam's infrastructure. It was taking out the Northern Vietnamese infrastructure that stopped the Vietnam War.

And if the United States goes into North Korea, for whatever reason, you can bet they will knock out the N.K.s infrastructure immediately. If North Korea makes the first move and violates the cease-fire by firing on the South Koreans, the U.S. has all the right to bomb N.K. back to the stone-age. Remember, the Korean War ended with a cease-fire.

The N.K.s would be against far-superior bombs, superior airpower, superior battle tanks, and better-equipped troops. All American infantryman have night-vision goggles, and all wear body armor. All carry gas-masks.

But I doubt such a thing would ever happen and hopefully never will.

Originally posted by WheelsRCool
You guys have got to be joking if you think old-fashioned martial arts would stand a chance against modern weaponry. The Chinese tried that with the Boxer Rebellion against the British, and that ended horribly.

...im not even gonna say anything about that,

If China jumps in, they will side with the United States. They are economically tied to the United States, and historically, countries have always sided with those that they were economically tied to. China isn't going to try and amass an army against the U.S. to support North Korea; if the U.S. decides to wipe out the N.K.s, they'll do so with China's approval most likely.

more like china could hold thems selves off, its more like america couldnt. everything we have is made in china or some asian company

As for Vietnam, the U.S. could have ended Vietnam very quickly. Lyndon B. Johnson would not allow the North to be attacked. When it was finally attacked, it ended the war pretty quickly. South Vietnam could have been saved early on had Johnson let the military do its job right.

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Another tricky thing was the N. Vietnamese went into Cambodia, which wanted to remain neutral. The U.S. respected this neutrality for years, but the N.V.'s used it as a base of operations to attack U.S. troops. The U.S. military could not retaliate on Cambodia, and thus the Vietnamese forces remained relatively safe.

you cant beat the north vietnamese in in there own territory. They know all the hiding spots, you be still in denile because im all for america but the got there as5 handed to them in the vietnam wa

And if the United States goes into North Korea, for whatever reason, you can bet they will knock out the N.K.s infrastructure immediately. If North Korea makes the first move and violates the cease-fire by firing on the South Koreans, the U.S. has all the right to bomb N.K. back to the stone-age. Remember, the Korean War ended with a cease-fire.

The N.K.s would be against far-superior bombs, superior airpower, superior battle tanks, and better-equipped troops. All American infantryman have night-vision goggles, and all wear body armor. All carry gas-masks.

dont you think north korea wouild be smart enough to wear body armor, have night vision,an carry gas mask?

how can you be sure were so superior to them, do u know what they have for sure... NO nobody does.

[edit on 16-6-2006 by DalairTheGreat]

The "Shattered OUT" at the end of each post is signifying that I have completed my thoughts and am signing off with that post.

On to the thread, if China joined the war, they would most certainly join the North Korean side, crippling American Foreign markets.

The assertion that infrastructure would be attacked is incorrect in my opinion because North Korea almost has none to begin with, they rely on manual labor such as muels, keep that in mind. And ok, I'll give in a little bit, whatever infrastructure they have, it will be the target, modern warfare consists of attacking a nation's infrastructure to crumble it, this works, look at WWII and wars then on, atleast most of them.

The comments on Vietnam were made by a poster who may not be aware of why Vietnam failed as a whole. There was no way that we could have possibly prevented Vietnam because the South Vietnamese couldn't hold their own, they couldn't even defend themselves because they lacked the insentive too. In the search for the viet cong, South Vietnamese support for the United States dwindled to a microscopic pinhead because all we were doing was destroying and burning down South Vietnamese villages, that tends to set people against you.

If you go into a conflict resembling that of Vietnam, be prepared to be there a long time and commited troops to it, because pulling out will only make things worse.(I.E. current Iraq)

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by k4rupt
What I think shatteredskies meant by saying that Asians are willing to die for their country is that the North Koreans have a better reason to fight to the death than the Americans. The North Koreans are fighting for the reunification of their people, fighting for their homeland, their motherland, and they have the damn will to do so. The American soldiers, however, are fighting another tiresome war far from home...

Wrong, and wrong again, that is NOT what I'm saying, you're referring to the poster I was addressing.

I do not believe that the Asians are willing to die as whole for their cause, because not all of them are happy with their current situation. They are either doing it out of free will(small percentage) or because they fear their current leader(majority).

10 percent of the North Korean population is in the armed forces, that's a big percentage, it's obviously not a volunteer army like the United States' is. The US' armed forces are all volunteer and it is still one of the most powerful forces. That's saying something, it's saying the american public has an incentive to defend their nation and fight for their nation, despite what the Loud minority might think, the silent majority rules, and they're the ones who make up the Armed Forces.

All I have to say on the matter.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
I do not believe that the Asians are willing to die as whole for their cause, because not all of them are happy with their current situation. They are either doing it out of free will(small percentage) or because they fear their current leader(majority).

This is the problem, you are judging these people from a Western viewpoint. Not criticizing you here, I understand where you are coming from fully (I'm an American as well), but being Korean as well, I will tell you that the term "as a whole" applies almost seamlessly to Asians. Here in the United States, we tend to emphasize the individual to the point that its almost by default that there are major exceptions. However, in Chinese, Korean (especially Korean), and Japanese culture, it really is all about the "whole." You'll find that there is really no other place in the world where people all think in the same manner and act in the same manner. They are all different in their own ways, but the approach they use when it comes to dealing with life's problems is pretty much uniform throughout. Koreans, and those of the DPRK included, are actually quite fierce a people with literally unbreakable fighting spirit and tenacity. Believe me, when it comes to tenacity, I am as Korean as they come.

The East and West really are that different. Even with globalization, the roots that made a people rarely change. Everyone needs to accept that.

I agree with you on the Silent Majority thing. America is indeed a very right-wing nation.

Originally posted by DalairTheGreat
dont you think north korea wouild be smart enough to wear body armor, have night vision,an carry gas mask?

how can you be sure were so superior to them, do u know what they have for sure... NO nobody does.

[edit on 16-6-2006 by DalairTheGreat]

The data might not be 100% accurate, but all you have to do is an analysis and see that North Korea has an obsolete and ineffective fighting force. I can also tell you for sure they probably don't have night-vision goggles. Those are expensive and North Korea has become very poor.

And yes, the Combined Forces are FAR superior to North Korean forces. North Korea has better special operations forces and overwhelming numbers, but qualitatively are probably as good as a mid-level military forces of the 1960s. If the DPRK wants to win, they're gonna need China and Russia's help.

At the same token, a war with North Korea would be long, brutal, bloody, and regardless of how inferior North Korea's forces are, they would wreak major havoc on the ROK and our forces.

I never said the North Koreans were wussies, I was always aware a war with north Korea would drag on, and a war of attrition will not win with North Korea, this will all boil down to technological advantage.

I'm trying to say is that the North Korean civilians may not be willing to support the fight, but I am aware that the North Korean soldiers are, and they sure won't go down quietly.

Shattered OUT...

I do not really see why people believe losing China as a manufacturing base would cripple our economy. First off everything in US is not made in China. Only the trivial materalistic things are made in China such as toys, consumer electronics, apparel and accessories, or cheap tools. Go look at your hygenic problems, chances are it is made in America or maybe Canada. Our food is here. Infrastructure is all built here in America. The weapons, AMERICAN! The actual circuitry for computers and radios is either put together in the West, or Japan. Just about everything foreign can be produced here within less than a year, or moved to another country to save money. In time of war, I would assume switching it back to our own country would help to garner significant support in order to fight the enemy.

As far as North Korea and going to war, I would see no reason for it even happening. I mean seriously what is it going to take to wage a full scale war? They are not going to attack anyone unless their borders are violated. If a spy plane flies over their skies, they have a right to shoot it down. Now violating their airspace justifies them defending it with any force necessary. The actions taken by the offendor is what will declare war or not.

I do not envision the south or Japan violating their borders for any reason. I suppose the only government inclined to do that would be America. I do not personally believe that China would support America OR fight them directly for NK. What they will do however is instantly give NK all the military equipment they will need for whatever reason. Whole Convoys of trucks with weapons, equipment, anti-aircraft, even advanced fighter jets will be given to North Korea to fight the Americans. This may also include stealth, or stealth detection technology. You honestly believe the nations top militaries will divulge whether such technology even exists? They are one of the five members of the UN SC so I do not think they give a damn about any arms embargos. Nobody from NATO or Europe will support America.

America will not be allowed to strike these convoys flowing freely from China because that would be an attack on them, which would then justify a war.

I will put it this way, if any two permanent members of the Security Council ever go at it, you better believe any citizen of the nations in arms will become involved directly with the war effort. So consider exactly what you people are even talking about, because it is not as simple as just launching air strikes and cruise missles.

how about we end it here

americans not ready to go to war again, especially with bush still around, if we fought north korea right now, we would probably lose.

maybe in 20 years well be ready

I think we sould ban all Red china good's. For every doller you spend on good's
made in china a % go right to there millitary. Why the millitary runs china's
governmet. The government own's most of china's companys. Those companys
sell there good's to Wall-Mart so boycott Wall-Mart and we will cripple china's
millitary so they could no give NK all those weapon's for they will have none to give. If we dont like Communism they why do we let stores sell there good's.

one of the worst propaganda films i have ever seen .
honestly i think kim wants to pick a fuight with the us but the us government is just ignoreing them. in my opinion if we ever did get in a fight with nk it would be like shooting fish in a barrle because a country full of cannons cant beat cant beat the us and all of its icbm's

good luck kim

Originally posted by cylon555
I think we sould ban all Red china good's. For every doller you spend on good's
made in china a % go right to there millitary. Why the millitary runs china's
governmet. The government own's most of china's companys. Those companys
sell there good's to Wall-Mart so boycott Wall-Mart and we will cripple china's
millitary so they could no give NK all those weapon's for they will have none to give. If we dont like Communism they why do we let stores sell there good's.

You have it backwards, what Dyepes said is true, however it is an extremely difficult thing to simply switch all of our markets. China has over 1 billion people, that's a market for all our companies, the stock market believe it or not would suffer some, that can cause a panic despite the fail safes in place. A war in China would NOT be the best situation for the United States of America.

Banning their goods isn't a good idea either, in some ways, China and the US depend on each other for economical stabilization in some way or another.

And to answer your question about communism, it's not that we don't like Communism because it's there, we don't believe in communism because we are capitalist, in our eyes Communism threatens everything we believe in, so we have to fight it, however that's not to say it's evil, it all depends who's viewing it and from what angle.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by DalairTheGreat
an to the people who are saying crap like wars arnt fought like they were 1000 years ago....thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard

plus do you know what the north koreans are...there ASIAN, there not afraid to die for the country. americans get jump an gungho when one person get taken hostage u take a north korean hostage garenteed hes try to kill as many of u before u kill him. those guys wont go dont with a fight... they got honor to protect

Wasn't it a Korean (or at least an Asian) who cried for his life on an Al-queda video? I don't post this to be disrespectful, just to show that what you posted isn't exactly true.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Video

They honestly believe they can do it.

I don't know about you, but when you get shot, you're dropping, I don't care how many swords don't pierce your stomach.

Shattered OUT...

der der derrr

Hey just do not be fooled. We are in a hate North Korea trend this month because we are trying to distract from the fact that the Iran situation is actually being able to be solved diplomatically *GASP*

Probably because they are also getting ready to either test launch their longest range missle, or shoot a satellite into space. Either way Japan is pretty upset with whatever they are doing, so we can expect to havw North Korea in the news again for another, ohhh I would say 2 months? Yeaf after that I think we will get back on Chavez and then who knows what afterwards.