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Joesph Smith and the Masonic Mormans

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posted on Dec, 5 2007 @ 03:43 PM
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You can scream "THATS NOT RIGHT" all day long, but you provide no proof - and you never have - and so we are ONCE AGAIN returned to me saying this: just because you want to find a conspiracy doesn't mean a conspiracy exists.

As to the rest of this absurdity, you've already been asked to prove it. I will only point out one more thing for you:


Originally posted by pepsi78
This whith we chose some simbols so we can change them is a fary tail, those simbols were chosen because of their meaning...but you know you can try at least to look artistic
I don't mind


Let me demonstrate the absurdity of what you type.

I have founded the Society of Blue Carpet Lovers, and have declared the Blue Carpet to be a symbol for my society. You will find in history no where else that has Blue Carpet as a symbol. I have declared the Blue Carpet is a symbol of human passion and it reminds us to always have sex on Blue Carpet. I don't have to have a reason, it's a symbol.

According to you, now that I have defined this symbol, blue carpet around the world for every culture now and forever means passion & having carpet sex forever and ever and unto the ages of ages. No matter what future groups may use the Blue Carpet as a symbol - even if they have no knowledge of my Society - Blue Carpet must ALWAYS mean what I have defined it as.

If you agree with the above and fail to see the absurdity in what you type, I have no hope for you.




posted on Dec, 5 2007 @ 03:50 PM
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Correction: I believe IN the PRINCIPLES (remember that one?) that they REPRESENT to ME and all regular Masons.

Funny how you take objects and chenge them (but only to the public view)
prove it, I don't buy it since they are all from one category then some one chose them very carefull before implementing them.
What you are telling me is that some one just closed his eyes and chose someting
was it a simbol lotery? who chose the simbols for you, and why did they chose those simbols ?
Why would some one chose a simbol from the same place with the same category over and over again? beacuse of it's meaning?




[/qupte]
I didn't say he never was, I said he wasn't at the time my previously referenced quote was taken.

You know ...like father like son..it stays in the family you know.



I have yet to see a real argument from you in the first place, so you saying that really doesn't hurt my feelings. I doubt you would recognize a real argument if it slapped you in the face...

Well I can't reply to something that does not debunk anything, your ways of diverting things and giving them diferent meanings stops me from giving replys , because there is nothing I could get excited about.
This is your way: no we don't or no we didin't change anything, or how do you know you are not a mason, no real arguments, just a bunch of hocus pocus mambo jumbo.



No doubt there are deeper meanings to these symbols, and I'm inclined to accept that perhaps half of what was posted in that website COULD be (not saying that it is) attributed to thos symbols by someone, somewhere.

Yea when sun broke down in the morning on ancient egipt people would gather near the piramid and as the sun reached the top of the piramid people would worship for hours on their knees and pray to the sun, they even made a simbol out of it, masonry adopted it, and changed it?




Apples/oranges. "Satan" is a universally accepted symbol, within it's sphere of influence. It's not really open to interpretation unless you want to argue about corporeal vs. ethereal.

Yea I know you stated before that orisis the god of the underworld and horus are are positive characters, It was a direct conection to the masonic simbols, how does the simbols of masonry and the original meaning of the simbols make it any more right compared to satan, do you know they use to sacrifice people alive for the sun god?
and now you and mormons adopted their their simbols , give me your baby it must be sacrificed
by the way why do you have little mesopotanians painted on the walls of some lodges, there was no stone material then....so you can't say it was the stone masons..remember they built their house out of mud.
Are you insisting that masonry started in ancient times you know there is no way for you to provide evidence on that.






Again, apples/oranges. A key as a key is only a key. A key as a symbol could mean many things: An answer or solution; knowledge; a truth; a secret; a path to something... get where I'm going?

A key has a top position for simbols, you have so many simbols you should know by now what a key as a simbol means, it's universal, a key as a simbol means it would open it's source, it's secret, a key as a simbol means that the key in cause will open only one dor, that being said it means the simbol is connected to something , the key represents the meaning of what a simbol means in general, since a key is unique ..well figure it out.
The key as a simbol just stands for what simbols mean in general as a definition.






A fork as a fork is an object, not a symbol. As a symbol it could mean "this is a place to eat," or "get your forks here," or "I'm hungry and all I got is this damned fork, can you hook a brudda up?"

The sqare and compas are objects.




Prove it.


I shall make a list of most of your simbols, not now, I made one before.



Prove it.

I made a list long time ago while debating with senrak..the guy that was baned, I shall make it again.



posted on Dec, 5 2007 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Your society must keep the Neosporin people in business, at least.



posted on Dec, 5 2007 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
Funny how you... bah blah blah... and why did they chose those simbols ? blah blah blah...


I've already told you... they are the WORKING TOOLS of a STONE MASON. Our allegories deal with building in STONE.

Get the net, already.



You know ...like father like son..it stays in the family you know.


Doesn't change the fact that Joseph wasn't a Mason at the time.



Well I can't reply to something that does not debunk anything, your ways of diverting things and giving them diferent meanings stops me from giving replys , because there is nothing I could get excited about.


Uh... OK?



Yea when sun broke down in the morning on ancient egipt people would gather near the piramid and as the sun reached the top of the piramid people would worship for hours on their knees and pray to the sun, they even made a simbol out of it, masonry adopted it, and changed it?


Exactly what symbol are you talking about?


Yea I know you stated before that orisis the god of the underworld and horus are are positive characters,


They were to the ancient Egyptians, yes.


It was a direct conection to the masonic simbols, how does the simbols of masonry and the original meaning of the simbols make it any more right compared to satan, do you know they use to sacrifice people alive for the sun god?
and now you and mormons adopted their their simbols , give me your baby it must be sacrificed


OK, you just accused me of condoning child sacrifice... I think. That might get you punched in the mouth, if you had said it to my face. Then you'd have a nice little imprint of a square and compasses in your lip. Nice!

You're missing the point by about 1,000 miles.


by the way why do you have little mesopotanians painted on the walls of some lodges, there was no stone material then....so you can't say it was the stone masons..remember they built their house out of mud.
Are you insisting that masonry started in ancient times you know there is no way for you to provide evidence on that.


Never seen a Mesopotamian in Lodge... but if I did I'd tell him to help himself to some pie.

Also, I never said that Masonry started in ancient times, either. Our legends are about ancient events, but I don't think many who are real scholars or researchers would try to make the case of Masonry being any more than 400 or so years older than the official 1717 date.



A key has a top position for simbols, you have so many simbols you should know by now what a key as a simbol means, it's universal, a key as a simbol means it would open it's source, it's secret, a key as a simbol means that the key in cause will open only one dor, that being said it means the simbol is connected to something , the key represents the meaning of what a simbol means in general, since a key is unique ..well figure it out.
The key as a simbol just stands for what simbols mean in general as a definition.


And it could just as easily be what I said; you kind of just made my point for me. At the end of the day, a key as a key is just a key. A key as a symbol can mean different things.

Are we trackin' now?



The sqare and compas are objects.


Indeed! As such, they are just objects. But as symbols, meanings can be attributed to them.



I shall make a list of most of your simbols, not now, I made one before.
I made a list long time ago while debating with senrak..the guy that was baned, I shall make it again.


Waiting with bated breath, let me assure you.


[edit on 12/5/07 by The Axeman]



posted on Dec, 5 2007 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by The Axeman
 


SHHH! That's supposed to be one of our secrets! Once you get in and get to the 69th degree
you get to be a Supreme Carpenter of the Royal Order of Blue Cheese, and you get stock in neosporin



posted on Dec, 5 2007 @ 08:29 PM
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I've already told you... they are the WORKING TOOLS of a STONE MASON. Our allegories deal with building in STONE.

The only problem is that there is no connection betwen free mason and stone massons, you might argue on that but there in no real evidence.
So this is just a theory , very thin one for you to defend by, so your argument is invalid.






Doesn't change the fact that Joseph wasn't a Mason at the time.

At the time of what?




Exactly what symbol are you talking about?

I'm not talking about a single simbol, but I was giving an example of the piramid and eye , you know the one on the us dolar bill .



They were to the ancient Egyptians, yes.

This is just an answer from you on what they were, not an argument.
See what I mean, it's hard for me to reply.





Also, I never said that Masonry started in ancient times, either. Our legends are about ancient events, but I don't think many who are real scholars or researchers would try to make the case of Masonry being any more than 400 or so years older than the official 1717 date.

masonry started with the french revolution and that is my personal opinion.




And it could just as easily be what I said; you kind of just made my point for me.

I did , I was explaining that a simbol is only valid in it's natural form, there for simbols represent what they ment in ancient times at the time they were invented, to simply say it means something else ...your words would no weight much.
Especialy when you are in to ancient filisophy as a group in meanings and inerpretations, really I don't see the simbols change, I only see them changed for the public eye.



At the end of the day, a key as a key is just a key. A key as a symbol can mean different things.

No it has a very defined meaning, it's the key you wear on your neck when you are lost and there are 4 dors,one on the left one on the right on in front and one in the back, can't beilive you don't know of they key simbol.it's the mother of simbols.





Indeed! As such, they are just objects. But as symbols, meanings can be attributed to them.

I was refering to your post of you explaining that expresions and not objecobjects are simbols, I gave the example with the fourk and showed you that objects are simbols, when you can't answer you just give an explenation to the object or the case in cause, this is the second time you do this.


OK, you just accused me of condoning child sacrifice... I think. That might get you punched in the mouth, if you had said it to my face. Then you'd have a nice little imprint of a square and compasses in your lip. Nice!

You're missing the point by about 1,000 miles.

No I did no say that, what I did say is that people that did the sacrifice were the same people that used the simbol form the begining.
If you can't hadle the presure axeman just leave it as it is

I don't want you breaking the forum rules, just let it go, and let some one else post, your flame really tells me that you are on the edge.




[edit on 5-12-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Dec, 5 2007 @ 09:08 PM
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I am still waiting for pepsi to read my proposed Secret Society of the Blue Carpet example. Tell me how it varies from what you've proposed.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
If you can't hadle the presure axeman just leave it as it is




You wish...

You're still missing the point. I'll try again in a bit, no worries.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
The only problem is that there is no connection betwen free mason and stone massons, you might argue on that but there in no real evidence.
So this is just a theory , very thin one for you to defend by, so your argument is invalid.


Hardly. I guess it would be silly of me to ask if you'd ever heard of the Regius Manuscript.



At the time of what?


At the time the Book of Mormon was "translated," and at the time when the Book of Mormon was being touted the "Anti-Masonic Bible."



I'm not talking about a single simbol, but I was giving an example of the piramid and eye , you know the one on the us dolar bill .


Well, there's part of your problem. The pyramid and eye are not Masonic symbols. The All-Seeing-Eye is a Masonic symbol, and sometimes it is depicted within a triangle, not a pyramid. The design of the dollar bill was created by a committee (unaffiliated with Masonry) assembled for that purpose. Agreed, there is a LOT of symbolism on the dollar, but it's relation to Masonry is minimal at best.



masonry started with the french revolution and that is my personal opinion.


Well that's your problem, innit? You're letting your personal opinions supercede facts!



I did , I was explaining that a simbol is only valid in it's natural form, there for simbols represent what they ment in ancient times at the time they were invented, to simply say it means something else ...your words would no weight much.


Exactly which Masonic symbols were used in ancient times? Please show documentation to support your statements.


Especialy when you are in to ancient filisophy as a group in meanings and inerpretations, really I don't see the simbols change, I only see them changed for the public eye.


You don't see much. If you had ever seen Masonic ritual, you could speak on it. As you have not, you don't know what you would see, so how can you say you've seen anything?



No it has a very defined meaning, it's the key you wear on your neck when you are lost and there are 4 dors,one on the left one on the right on in front and one in the back, can't beilive you don't know of they key simbol.it's the mother of simbols.


Put down the pipe, and step away from the keyboard...



I was refering to your post of you explaining that expresions and not objecobjects are simbols, I gave the example with the fourk and showed you that objects are simbols, when you can't answer you just give an explenation to the object or the case in cause, this is the second time you do this.


A given object can be used either as a symbol, or as an object. Symbols have meanings; objects are just objects. It's the meaning attributed to it when used as a symbol, not the object itself, that is important.

I can't think of a plainer way to say it.



No I did no say that, what I did say is that people that did the sacrifice were the same people that used the simbol form the begining.


Again, what symbols are you referring to? And what ancient culture(s)? Documentation, please.



I don't want you breaking the forum rules, just let it go, and let some one else post, your flame really tells me that you are on the edge.


You've probably never seen me really flame someone, because I try to avoid it. Trust me, I was not flaming you. You'd know it, and I'd have a pretty red warning tag by my avatar.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 03:34 PM
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Hardly. I guess it would be silly of me to ask if you'd ever heard of the Regius Manuscript.


www.islipmasons.org...



The honest answers to the questions when, where and why Freemasonry originated are that we simply do not know. Early evidence for Freemasonry is very meager and not enough has yet been discovered - to prove any theory. The general agreement amongst serious Masonic historians and researchers is that Freemasonry has arisen, either directly or indirectly, from the medieval stonemasons (or operative masons) who built great cathedrals and castles.


Officialy speaking outside masonry you have no evidence of that so your argument is invalid.
If you would like to provide a credible source to a link from an enciclopedia or a scientifical ariological research organisation outsite masonry please do so.




Well, there's part of your problem. The pyramid and eye are not Masonic symbols. The All-Seeing-Eye is a Masonic symbol, and sometimes it is depicted within a triangle, not a pyramid. The design of the dollar bill was created by a committee (unaffiliated with Masonry) assembled for that purpose. Agreed, there is a LOT of symbolism on the dollar, but it's relation to Masonry is minimal at best.




Grand lodge of ohaio







Exactly which Masonic symbols were used in ancient times? Please show documentation to support your statements.

I shall post this later , I will.

Further more I see no debunking of the fact that simbols mean what they always ment , meaning all your simbols mean what they ment in ancient times in egypt.



[edit on 6-12-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
Further more I see no debunking of the fact that simbols mean what they always ment , meaning all your simbols mean what they ment in ancient times in egypt.


Actually, its been completely debunked by several people, including me. In fact, I even drew up an example to illustrate this absurd logic that you present in the Society of the Blue Carpet. That you ignored this example and the posts debunking this logic shows that you are simply in denial.

Next.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 04:44 PM
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Actually, its been completely debunked by several people, including me. In fact, I even drew up an example to illustrate this absurd logic that you present in the Society of the Blue Carpet. That you ignored this example and the posts debunking this logic shows that you are simply in denial.

How about you try explaining that with masonry, what simbols were changed by meaning, make a list. and sure I'll just take your word for it
while I'm at it.

I don't beilive that the masonic simbols were changed to mean something else other than what they originaly mean...there you go, and its' my personal opinion.

What is more absurd a cat barking like a dog, or a dog barking like a dog, who are you going to beilive, I'll pick the dog, I'm sure his barking gives the dog away and shows he is a dog.


[edit on 6-12-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78How about you try explaining that with masonry, what simbols were changed by meaning, make a list. and sure I'll just take your word for it
while I'm at it.


What? Once again, the burden of proof is ON YOU. You have decided to make up this wacky theory about the meaning of symbols, you must prove it. You have not done so. It is not up to me to show you that you are wrong.


Originally posted by pepsi78I don't beilive that the masonic simbols were changed to mean something else other than what they originaly mean...there you go, and its' my personal opinion.


Just saying its your personal opinion doesn't mean its unquestionable or correct.


Originally posted by pepsi78 is more absurd a cat barking like a dog, or a dog barking like a dog, who are you going to beilive, I'll pick the dog, I'm sure his barking gives the dog away and shows he is a dog.


What? Animal sounds are NOT SYMBOLS - we are TALKING ABOUT SYMBOLS. Invalid, absurd, and illogical comparison. I know your trying to divert and put up smoke and mirrors, but I will continue to bring us back to the topic of your theories - which you can't defend.

I will once again ask you to read and explain to me the following:

I have founded the Society of Blue Carpet Lovers, and have declared the Blue Carpet to be a symbol for my society. You will find in history no where else that has Blue Carpet as a symbol. I have declared the Blue Carpet is a symbol of human passion and it reminds us to always have sex on Blue Carpet. I don't have to have a reason, it's a symbol.

According to you, now that I have defined this symbol, blue carpet around the world for every culture now and forever means passion & having carpet sex forever and ever and unto the ages of ages. Anyone who even has Blue Carpet in their apartment is now paying homage to my Society. No matter if people even know about my Society or what future groups may use the Blue Carpet as a symbol - even if they have no knowledge of my Society - Blue Carpet must ALWAYS mean what I have defined it as.

If you agree with the above statement and fail to see the absurdity in what you type, I have no hope for you.

[edit on 6-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 05:53 PM
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What? Once again, the burden of proof is ON YOU. You have decided to make up this wacky theory about the meaning of symbols, you must prove it. You have not done so. It is not up to me to show you that you are wrong.

I did not make anything up, I simply gave an explenation of what the simbols ment, I'm not the one that distorts simbols and their meaning, about the burden of proof I did expain what the simbols mean.





What? Animal sounds are NOT SYMBOLS - we are TALKING ABOUT SYMBOLS. Invalid, absurd, and illogical comparison. I know your trying to divert and put up smoke and mirrors, but I will continue to bring us back to the topic of your theories - which you can't defend.

The square and compas sounds like the ancient egiptians describe it, and that is what it is, it's description is posted above in my earlyer post.



I will once again ask you to read and explain to me the following:

I have founded the Society of Blue Carpet Lovers, and have declared the Blue Carpet to be a symbol for my society. You will find in history no where else that has Blue Carpet as a symbol. I have declared the Blue Carpet is a symbol of human passion and it reminds us to always have sex on Blue Carpet. I don't have to have a reason, it's a symbol.

Yea, but looks like you invented a "new simbol" have you ever heard of trade marks
looks like your blue carpet society has a simbol of it's own and it's not imported from anywhere else, if you were to get a simbol
from some where else to represent you it would be because you would want to chose a simbol with a meaning that fits your society, since it is not the case you created a simbol of your own.

Do you really think that masonry chose simbols randomly? that is the most absurd thing I have herd, no...the simbols were chosen for what they stand for dear darklight.
Masonry chose those simbols for the reason of their meaning to fit them.



If you agree with the above statement and fail to see the absurdity in what you type, I have no hope for you.

I'm sorry but I don't seem to see the logic in it.


[edit on 6-12-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


I give up. You have made no explanation nor justification for your wacko theory about symbols. None. Zero.

What is most amazing is you get my point, you EVEN TYPED IT OUT - but you refuse to acknowledge it. Societies import symbols they like and give it their own meaning. The point is that my Society came up with a symbol JUST AS THE EGYPTIANS DID (and by the way, where is your evidence that the egyptians were the first persons to give symbols there meaning) - and now according to your logic, every time you walk on blue carpet you are now commanded to have sex on it.

As you then said, groups give their own different meanings to symbols. Thanks for agreeing.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 08:46 PM
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I give up. You have made no explanation nor justification for your wacko theory about symbols. None. Zero.

Well give up why don't you
and no it's no wako it's just the way it is, people adopt simbols from difrent places for their meaning to asociate with them, it's as simple as it is, nothing wako about it.



What is most amazing is you get my point, you EVEN TYPED IT OUT - but you refuse to acknowledge it. Societies import symbols they like and give it their own meaning.


The proces involved it picking the simbols the way it was done made me beilive something diferent.
About all simbols are religios in nature the place from where they originate is identical, this indicates that the simbols were picked because this organisation has an afection for what their meaning is.

Why does one pick a specific simbol tell me?




The point is that my Society came up with a symbol JUST AS THE EGYPTIANS DID (and by the way, where is your evidence that the egyptians were the first persons to give symbols there meaning)

Not really, it happened in mesopoamia, present day iraq, but this is irelevant, beside why pick from egypt , it's simply because they are in to egyptian mithology, they beilive in the simbols.



As you then said, groups give their own different meanings to symbols. Thanks for agreeing.


It can be bolth way, a society can adopt simbols and use them for their original meaning, but a sociaty also can adopt simbols and change their meaning, , I just don't think masonry picked them out to change them.
The reason for that is
1 most of the simbols are religios
2 there are just too many simbols from the same place.
3 there are just too many simbols in general.

I will now explain my points.
1 This means that the simbols are religios and there is a tendency in a direction

2 This means that the religios simbols being from the same area means that they were not chosen just to change them, if that were the case you would see difrent kind of smbols from diferent kind of places picked randomly, if some one picks simbols from the same category from the same area then he/she must be at least fascinated with their meaning.

3 alot of simbols indicate that the simbols are respected in general, especialy when members make books on them, and explain them over and over again.



[edit on 6-12-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 12:56 AM
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LightinDarkness you should read trilogy of thought, if I can't convince you maybe that book will, there are a few things about masonic symbols and what they truly represent, it's by albert pike , you will be shoocked to find out that I was right, luky me I have ODC I can find all kind of books in pdf format.
Albert pike stated.
"It is in its antique symbolsand their occult meaning that the true secrets of Freemasonry consist. But these have no value if we see nothing in the symbols of the blu.e lodge beyond the imbecile pretences of interpretations of them contained in our monitors"

There you go, I hope this does it for you.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 07:10 AM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Actually all it does for me is confirm you havent the slightest idea of what your talking about. I tried to respond with logic and reason, you ignored it. If you want to think you've "won" - that's fine, it will be clear to everyone else what really happened.

I refuse to take part in anymore of these "hit and run" posts - where anti-masons throw up utter nonsense, which is soundly defeated by logic and reason. The same anti-masons then completely ignore the logic and reason which just destroyed their arguments, and move on to the next utter non-sense theory. Rinse and repeat.




posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 09:01 AM
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Actually all it does for me is confirm you havent the slightest idea of what your talking about. I tried to respond with logic and reason, you ignored it. If you want to think you've "won" - that's fine, it will be clear to everyone else what really happened.

Again.
By albert pike:
""It is in its antique symbolsand their occult meaning that the true secrets of Freemasonry consist. But these have no value if we see nothing in the symbols of the blu.e lodge beyond the imbecile pretences of interpretations of them contained in our monitors"





I refuse to take part in anymore of these "hit and run" posts - where anti-masons throw up utter nonsense, which is soundly defeated by logic and reason. The same anti-masons then completely ignore the logic and reason which just destroyed their arguments, and move on to the next utter non-sense theory. Rinse and repeat.


It seems that you don't know how to lose.
Seems you are postng off the subject, I just gave you an argument regarding the symbols.
I guess when you can't answer you just divert the subject.
Just accept your defeat and I'll respect you for that.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 12:11 PM
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I refuse to take part in anymore of these "hit and run" posts - where anti-masons throw up utter nonsense, which is soundly defeated by logic and reason. The same anti-masons then completely ignore the logic and reason which just destroyed their arguments, and move on to the next utter non-sense theory. Rinse and repeat.



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