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Joesph Smith and the Masonic Mormans

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posted on May, 21 2006 @ 09:33 PM
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I saw in a recent thread a few people touching on the fact that the founder of Morman church was a Mason. I also read before when joining either the church or higher up order within the church they used a petition just like a masonic petition. Also can anyone tell me if the blood oaths were also carried over for either the Morman church or the higher order within this church? Also anything else masonic related with this religion?




posted on May, 21 2006 @ 10:30 PM
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I'm not well-educated about Masons, but I am a Mormon, and have read extensively on Mormon history. I'll try to answer your questions...

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, was indeed a Mason, but he did not become a Mason until years after he founded the church. The church was founded on April 6, 1830, and he became a mason (I forget the exact date) in the early 1840s, when he was in Nauvoo. According to Wikipedia, it was March 1842, which sounds about right to me.

I am not familiar with 'masonic petitions', so I don't know whether the process for joining the Mormon church is similar to joining the Masons. To join the Mormons, the typical process is that one would first be taught the basic church doctrine by a pair of missionaries. Then they would have to change parts of their life that didn't fit with Mormon teachings; for example, if they drank alcohol, which is against our religion, they would have to quit. Then their local bishop would interview them, and if he was satisfied that they were sincere about joining and were living a life in accordance with Mormon standards, he would give permission for their baptism.

The 'blood oaths' used to be used in some of the temple ceremonies, where the participants promised not to divulge the ceremonies outside of the temple, because we consider them sacred. They were removed from the ceremonies in 1990, although they still request that they are not shared outside the temple. Of course, some people have done so anyway, and anyone can go onto google and find the ceremonies. (I don't know how accurate they are, since I have not gone through the endowment ceremony myself, which is the one that had blood oaths)

I have no idea what you mean by 'higher order within this church'. If you wouldn't mind elaborating on that...

Other masonic stuff... some of the earlier temples have some symbols on them that are in common with masonry, like the sun/compass. Some of the other early church leaders were also Masons, many of whom joined around the time Joseph Smith did, but a few that did much earlier. For example, Joseph's brother Hyrum Smith was a Mason, and had been for many years before Joseph, if I recall correctly. Comparisons have also been made between the Mormon endowment ceremony and some of the Masonic ceremonies, and they have some similarities, but overall they are two separate things. The reason (according to Mormons) that there are some similarities is because masons derived their ceremonies from those of Solomon's temple, which practiced the same ceremonies. Apparently, most historians don't buy that, because masonry was founded only a few centuries ago, though some allege that masonry has been around much much longer, just in other forms and names.

Today there are very few Mormons who are also Masons, and none that I am aware of in high leadership positions in the church. The main reason for this is when the Mormons went west to what is now Utah, shortly after the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, that some of the murderers were Masons, and also that some of the Masons didn't like the Mormons, for various reasons. (of course, a lot of people didn't like the Mormons, so that was nothing new!) For quite some time afterward, the Mormons were discouraged from becoming Masons, and Brigham Young had said not to join.

From wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org...


Freemasonry and modern Mormonism
In past years the Mormon Church in Utah had an often contentious relationship with Freemasonry in general and the Grand Lodge of Utah in particular. The Grand Lodge of Utah was founded in 1872 as an openly anti-Mormon organization. It eventually prohibited Mormons from joining its constituent Lodges. The Mormon Church responded by prohibiting Freemasons from holding priesthood leadership positions in the church.

However, in 1984 the Grand Lodge of Utah officially dropped its anti-Mormon positions and allowed church members to join. That same year church President Spencer W. Kimball removed all remaining prohibitions against Freemasonry. Today there is no formal obstacle preventing Mormons from becoming Freemasons or vice versa.[1] [2]

There is no official statement by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as to whether or not Freemasonry is compatible with Mormonism. This position dates from the church presidency of Brigham Young. However, see the following statement by the Salt Lake Tribune: "There is no specific Mormon prohibition of Masonry, but church spokesman Don LeFevre said the church discourages it members from joining it or similar groups. 'The church strongly advises its members not to affiliate with organizations that are secret, oath-bound, or would cause them to lose interest in church activities.'" (Section D1, Monday Feb. 17, 1992).



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 01:55 AM
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Thanks for the great detailed information on that subject.

I am curious was it ever known why the Smith brothers were murdered and by who? Next I heard once that Joseph Smith was booted from Masonry do you know if this holds true or not? You did mention some of the murders were Masons for fact. Do you know if this was confirmed and if they were jailed?

When I mentioned higher order of the Church I was reffering to any sort of select priests or church officals that did something along the lines of full time for a given Church. I believe the Catholic Church has some orders like this but I could just be mistaken it as something not with such a name as "order".


Now back to the petition I mentioned in the first post. What I believe I saw was a simple petition to join the Morman church which was like on of Masonry with all the standard info but required two members to sign for you for approval. In a Masonic lodge this goes up for vote but I would imagine if a petition ever exsisted in the Morman church it would be a smaller process like you mentioned and go up for approval under heads of Church etc.

Thanks again for all the info. I never knew how similar the two were.


EDIT:
some corresponding information on the subject on hand;

see sect. 545,546,547
www.utlm.org...

"We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so; we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots" (Temple Mormonism, p.18).

Masonic like petition?
nowscape.com...
nowscape.com...
nowscape.com...

Any chance you ever come across any of those churches with the masonic-esque symmbols? In person or online ? I would love to see em'.

[edit on 22-5-2006 by 32genroman]

[edit on 22-5-2006 by 32genroman]



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 02:25 AM
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I joined the Mormon church briefly abut 30 years ago, mostly the please my father.
I also grew tired of being hounded by the missionaries.

I must say that the members of the local ward were very kind people, but I simply could not accept
all the rules and regulations.

It became clear to me that there was a great difference between the word of God
and the self serving words of men.



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 02:32 AM
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Hmmm, I was under the impression that Smith was ousted from the Masons BEFORE he founded the Mormon church, and that he lifted some of the ritual for his new religion.



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 05:17 AM
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Hmmm, I was under the impression that Smith was ousted from the Masons BEFORE he founded the Mormon church, and that he lifted some of the ritual for his new religion.


No, it is quite clear in the historical records that I have read that the Mormon church was founded prior to Smith having joined the Masons. I don't know whether he was ever expelled from masonry, because I have seen conflicting information on this point. Also, I found the exact date that Joseph Smith became a Mason, it is March 15, 1842. History of the Church, volume IV, by B.H. Roberts, says that Smith "received the first degree in Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge" on this date, and that on the next day, he "was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree." I don't know much about masons, so I don't know whether that is typical, or unusual, or how high up that is, but that is what it says.


am curious was it ever known why the Smith brothers were murdered and by who? Next I heard once that Joseph Smith was booted from Masonry do you know if this holds true or not? You did mention some of the murders were Masons for fact. Do you know if this was confirmed and if they were jailed?


Since the Smith brothers were killed by a large mob of people, there were probably several reasons, depending upon which of the people you asked. Some common reasons that the Smith brothers (and Mormons in general) were disliked were:
-some Mormons practiced polygamy, which while not illegal at the time, was not well-received by others
-fears that Mormons would block-vote in politics, especially because they tended to form communities together, and people were worried that they would 'take over' local government by voting in a whole bunch of Mormon leaders to government. Other than in Nauvoo, which was founded by Mormons, I don't think any Mormons were ever elected to political office at that time
-other religions and religious people did not like this new religion, which claimed (and still does) that it was 'the only true church on earth' and did not like Joseph Smith's claims that he had seen God and spoken to him

The reason that the Smith brothers were imprisoned in Carthage jail when they were murdered was on charges of violating freedom of the press. A local newspaper, run by people who hated Mormons, had published their first issue, full of slander and lies about Mormons. Joseph Smith, as mayor of Nauvoo, and the city council, declared the printing press a 'public nuisance' and had it taken apart. Whether this was legal or not, I don't know, since I am no law expert, but the city of Nauvoo constitution did allow for council to brand things as 'public nuisances' and have them taken care of, but whether this extended to freedom of the press, I don't know. The city council did believe that what they did was legal, though.

The following comes from History of the Church, by B.H. Roberts, Volume VII, Chapter XII. (page number unknown, since I only have an ebook copy) I'm putting it in a link to a text file I'm storing on my ATS account because it's too long to fit in the post, due to the new rules. It lists all the known people who were in the mob. A trial was held for a few of them, but none were ever found guilty.

files.abovetopsecret.com...

I doubt you'll bother to do more than scan that lengthy list, but the point is, it is well known to history who many of the perpetrators were, and the list includes several in law enforcement. The guards of Carthage jail, who were supposed to be protecting the prisoners, just let the mob come in, because they too didn't like the Smiths.

Now, I cannot find for a fact that specific Masons were in the mob (which I read somewhere earlier today when looking up some of this stuff for the last post) but it is virtually certain, because there were so many Masons in Nauvoo, and because Joseph, before he was shot, shouted a masonic phrase, 'Oh, Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's son?' which is supposed to be a masonic plea of distress and for help. He wouldn't have said that unless he either recognized masons present or else had strong reason to believe that there were masons there, since few others would have even known what that meant. If it is important, I can try to look further for specific Masons who were involved. It should be stated that there is zero evidence that the masonic organization wanted Smith dead; it was the actions of individuals acting on their own.


Now back to the petition I mentioned in the first post. What I believe I saw was a simple petition to join the Morman church which was like on of Masonry with all the standard info but required two members to sign for you for approval. In a Masonic lodge this goes up for vote but I would imagine if a petition ever exsisted in the Morman church it would be a smaller process like you mentioned and go up for approval under heads of Church etc.


The pictures you have posted are temple recommends. What these are is if a Mormon wants to go to one of the temples, they have to have an interview with their bishop and stake president (two local leaders) and they will ask them if they are living the standards of the Mormon church, like no booze, no premarital sex, etc. If they are satisfied that the member is worthy to go to the temple, they give them what you see in the scanned pictures. Those pictures are a bit old, but they look similar today, and have the same info on them. Like I said, I don't know how similar this is to a 'masonic petition', but that is what is done.

Ok, getting close to my character post limit, so I'll start another one up...



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
History of the Church, volume IV, by B.H. Roberts, says that Smith "received the first degree in Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge" on this date, and that on the next day, he "was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree." I don't know much about masons, so I don't know whether that is typical, or unusual, or how high up that is, but that is what it says.

This tells us that he was a Master Mason, which (as you probably know) accounts for probably over 99% of freemasons in the US. Without further information it is not known whether he progressed within the Blue Lodge to the Chair, or whether he joined any Side Orders. If he left freemasonry within just a few years of joining then it is unlikely he progressed much further.



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 06:13 AM
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When I mentioned higher order of the Church I was reffering to any sort of select priests or church officals that did something along the lines of full time for a given Church. I believe the Catholic Church has some orders like this but I could just be mistaken it as something not with such a name as "order".


There are church leaders, high up on the totem pole, so to speak, that are full-time. For example, the First Presidency, the 12 apostles, the Seventies, come to mind immediately. There's also more that could be added to that list, but those are the ones most recognizable. We also have missionaries that serve full-time, typically for 2 years.

The Catholic Church does have 'orders', orders, like the ones in that link. The Mormon church has nothing comparable to those groups within it.


Any chance you ever come across any of those churches with the masonic-esque symmbols? In person or online ? I would love to see em'


Not in person. Here's a few pics though.

Salt Lake City Temple:

handshake

sun pic

Nauvoo Temple (rebuilt)

second sun pic

I had one more pick from Nauvoo, but Imageshack is rejecting it!



Thanks again for all the info. I never knew how similar the two were.


Well, you're welcome, I suppose, although personally I see Mormonism and Masonry as two separate entities, with actually fairly little in common beyond the points made. Mormonism is a religion, while Masonry is a fraternity. Here is a website I referred to on another thread about the mason/mormon issue. There's also a bit of stuff about that issue on my Mormon FAQ thread in my signature below, amongst other stuff.

One last thing...

It's spelled mormOn, not mormAn.




[edit on 22-5-2006 by DragonsDemesne]

[edit on 22-5-2006 by DragonsDemesne]

sorry for all the edits, I'm trying to get the images to work properly...

[edit on 22-5-2006 by DragonsDemesne]

found problem with images... Dragons is st00pid...

[edit on 22-5-2006 by DragonsDemesne]



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by Roark
Hmmm, I was under the impression that Smith was ousted from the Masons BEFORE he founded the Mormon church, and that he lifted some of the ritual for his new religion.


He had already founded the Mormon Church when he became a Mason; however, it was after he was a made a Mason that he wrote the Endowment Ceremony. It is a Mormon doctrine that Smith restored the "true" Temple Ceremony from "corrupted" Freemasonry, just as he restored the "true" religion from "corrupted" Christianity.



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 08:44 PM
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He was a mason, a dedicated mason, he even took the compas & sqare and alot of other masonic simbols and integrated them in the mormon curch, aprons, oaths, so stop working your way out of this one.
Joseph's brother, Hyrum was a mason since 1820, members of the LDS church like brigham young were masons before they joined with the mormons.

Were talking about the same guy that was saying that the mon is inhabited with moon people
as well as the sun and that he comunicates with them and has visions of them.
This just shows what kind of people we are dealing with.

Alot of mormon churches and the main temple has maonic simbols due to
the founder of the mormon faith, they even have the compass and the sqare on their white robes.
Masons would try to discharge this fact but there is just too much over wellming evidence...
there go's your moral values, just lies tricks behind the curtain.



[edit on 19-11-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 08:58 PM
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interesting story the "mormasons" have... was Smith "invited" to become a Mason because he had valuable earth shattering information about the future of the world? was he actually visited by an "angalien"? where are those tablets of gold? why did he think the american indians were one of the lost tribes of israel? i mean, where'd he get such "whacky" ideas from anyway? any, mormons want to "chime" in?



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by never_tell
interesting story the "mormasons" have... was Smith "invited" to become a Mason because he had valuable earth shattering information about the future of the world?


Well his brother was a mason before joining the mormon faith , that tells you alot.




was he actually visited by an "angalien"?



He changed his story 3 times, the first time it was jesus, the second time it was god, the third time it was 2 extraterestials from another world.



why did he think the american indians were one of the lost tribes of israel? i mean, where'd he get such "whacky" ideas from anyway? any, mormons want to "chime" in?


The american indians are eschimos, they migrated in general from the north but also siberia when ice was still covering the area betwen alaska and siberia, there are arhiological findings and cultural behavior that link the north american natives to the eschimos.

The mormon faith is link with masonry, also not wanting to bash the mormons, but their religion involevs things like satan was the brother of jesus, jesus is an alien, god is an ailien like alot of other aliens, and god was just a human and comes from some distant planet.


[edit on 19-11-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 09:42 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


"Well his brother was a mason before joining the mormon faith , that tells you alot. "

sure does..."het brother has stumbled on something you guys might want to check out..."

He changed his story 3 times, the first time it was jesus, the second time it was god, the third time it was 2 extraterestials from another world.

perhaps looking for a way of describing what happened without looking too crazy? i mean, would be cool if people believe jesus and then God visited you... 'ya, did i say Jesus? I meant God..." wow... later they might think you're lying when they find out you've not come clean with certain details so you change your story... " ok.. it was aliens..."

The american indians are eschimos, they migrated in general from the north but also siberia when ice was still covering the area betwen alaska and siberia, there are arhiological findings and cultural behavior that link the north american natives to the eschimos.

sorry, i don't buy the official line on that one... many theories concering.... the migration of asiatic people across the Pacific, for example... dropped from Thunderbirds to populate the New world, for another... left high and dry after the flood.... all as likely in my mind... i mean, they don't even look like eskimos!



posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Roark
Hmmm, I was under the impression that Smith was ousted from the Masons BEFORE he founded the Mormon church, and that he lifted some of the ritual for his new religion.


He had already founded the Mormon Church when he became a Mason; however, it was after he was a made a Mason that he wrote the Endowment Ceremony. It is a Mormon doctrine that Smith restored the "true" Temple Ceremony from "corrupted" Freemasonry, just as he restored the "true" religion from "corrupted" Christianity.


What ML says is the history that I have found to be most factual..

That while the Church was founded, it wasn't until after he joined Masonry that he designed the initiation of Mormonism..

And if you have every seen the Masonic Master Mason degree and the initiation of Mormonism, you will see that obviously Mormon's have copied very crudely the ideas of Masonry..

In my opinion and only my opinion, raping, destroying and mutilating the teachings of Masonry to fit a disgusting dogmatic system of control, submissiveness, and hypocritical hate.. most Mormons disagree with Masonry calling it Satanic, yet have no idea where their initiation ceremony came from, or why you have to have a certified card to enter the Temples.

I personally refuse to recognize Mormonism as Christian by any means, it is its own religion, a religion of its founder and nothing more.

But thats my opinion, not the opinion of Mason's or any other person.



posted on Nov, 20 2007 @ 12:38 AM
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In my opinion and only my opinion, raping, destroying and mutilating the teachings of Masonry to fit a disgusting dogmatic system of control, submissiveness, and hypocritical hate.. most Mormons disagree with Masonry calling it Satanic, yet have no idea where their initiation ceremony came from, or why you have to have a certified card to enter the Temples

wrere not talking about 1 single guy, but a whole bunch his brother inluded.
1500 LDS men became associated with Illinois Freemasonry at the time
this included Church's governing high functioning priests.

The teachings of mormon faith based it's self alot on masonry, this included simbols , aprons, and gestures from masonry, hand shakes included, you can't say that one person stole the symbols and identity of masonry and twisted it around when almost all of them were masons, the mormon faith developed from there on, aliot of the members were masons before they joined the mormon faith.


[edit on 20-11-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Nov, 20 2007 @ 07:27 AM
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Originally posted by never_tell
interesting story the "mormasons" have... was Smith "invited" to become a Mason because he had valuable earth shattering information about the future of the world?


The Worshipful Master of Nauvoo Lodge had converted to Mormonism, and apparently invited Smith and other Church leaders to join the fraternity. They accepted, and large numbers of Mormons (into the hundreds) received the degrees over the course of 2 days.

The non-Mormon members of the Lodge complained to the Grand Lodge of Illinois, who began investigating the matter. Soon afterward, the Grand Master suspended the charter of Nauvoo Lodge, and expelled Smith and the other Mormons, including the Worshipful Master of the Lodge, for various Masonic irregularities, as well as for practicing polygamy, which was and is a crime. Smith never again sought any sort of Masonic membership, but borrowed heavily from Masonic ritual, as in use in Illinois at that time, when he wrote the Mormon Endowment ceremony.



posted on Nov, 20 2007 @ 11:19 AM
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Also can anyone tell me if the blood oaths were also carried over for either the Morman church or the higher order within this church?


How about the " blessed boxers?"




It's spelled mormOn, not mormAn.

Thanks for the info. I always thought it was MorOns.


Alot of mormon churches and the main temple has maonic simbols due to
the founder of the mormon faith, they even have the compass and the sqare on their white robes.
Masons would try to discharge this fact but there is just too much over wellming evidence...
there go's your moral values, just lies tricks behind the curtain.

Spell checker is your friend and is not demonic. besides it makes you look less idiotic.



or why you have to have a certified card to enter the Temples.

and the "blessed boxers".




this included simbols , aprons, and gestures from masonry, hand shakes included,


and dont forget the "blessed boxers."



posted on Nov, 20 2007 @ 11:38 AM
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There is a decent article at MasonicInfo about this. Here's the link:
www.masonicinfo.com...



posted on Nov, 20 2007 @ 02:25 PM
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Spell checker is your friend and is not demonic. besides it makes you look less idiotic.

Are you going to attack me over this issue, I guess you don't have alot to tell then




and dont forget the "blessed boxers."


Yes and don't forget that temple rituals and gatherings to practice the mormon faith were held in the masonic hall, I guess you forgot about that By the way it's "don't" not "dont", I guess I could say the same to you, spell check is your friend.





Nou about masonry.... since the mormon faith is demonic I can only conclude that masonry is the same, since the mormon faith is close connected to masonry teachings.


[edit on 20-11-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Nov, 20 2007 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
He changed his story 3 times, the first time it was jesus, the second time it was god, the third time it was 2 extraterestials from another world.


Got a source for that, or have you been watching too much South Park?

In his testimony if the book of Mormon it says the angel Moroni came to Joseph Smith and told him about the plates, if I remember right.

Still -- a source would be nice, thanks.



Nou about masonry.... since the mormon faith is demonic I can only conclude that masonry is the same, since the mormon faith is close connected to masonry teachings.


Speaks volumes... you know what? You're demonic. Take that.


[edit on 11/20/07 by The Axeman]



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