Joesph Smith and the Masonic Mormans

Got a source for that, or have you been watching too much South Park?

In his testimony if the book of Mormon it says the angel Moroni came to Joseph Smith and told him about the plates, if I remember right.

Still -- a source would be nice, thanks.

I've stated this after seeing a documantary on mormon scriputres, it's an old documentary, it has a very transparent aproach , they zoomed on every paragraph on the books them selfs , and everytime it has a diferent story, it states that it was jesus, then that it was god, then it was aliens.
The tribes mentioned bu joseph smith is another lie, arihological search has nothing on that.....zero.
It's just a lie after another one and it's close related to masonry

The founder of the mormons had alot of masonic friends , his brother was a mason long before he started the mormon faith, it's not like he was introduecd to masonry that istance as he joined.
If you want to beilive a guy that states that there are people on the moon living on the moon, and sun people living on the sun be my guest.
When mormon gatherings are held in masonic halls it's just all clear.

reply to post by Masonic Light


thanks for that... it just goes to show you, it's not what you know but who!

Originally posted by pepsi78

When mormon gatherings are held in masonic halls it's just all clear.

Mormons do not "gather" in Masonic halls.

Since your faith is demonic, it's just all clear now.

Originally posted by pepsi78
I've stated this after seeing a documantary on mormon scriputres, it's an old documentary, it has a very transparent aproach , they zoomed on every paragraph on the books them selfs , and everytime it has a diferent story, it states that it was jesus, then that it was god, then it was aliens.

So, you've never researched it yourself, you are relying on a "documentary" for your info. Check.

The tribes mentioned bu joseph smith is another lie, arihological search has nothing on that.....zero.

Really? What is arihology? I assume you are an arihologist?

It's just a lie after another one and it's close related to masonry

Not as close as you might think; there are some links about ths topic in my "Low-down" thread. Do yourself a favor and read them.

The founder of the mormons had alot of masonic friends , his brother was a mason long before he started the mormon faith, it's not like he was introduecd to masonry that istance as he joined.

Yeah, he plagiarized Masonic ritual for his Endowment ceremony, and incorporated some Masonic symbols in his religion... That's about all the connection there is.

If you want to beilive a guy that states that there are people on the moon living on the moon, and sun people living on the sun be my guest.
When mormon gatherings are held in masonic halls it's just all clear.

It's not that I believe it or don't. It's about people being free to believe what they want. This is America, Jack.

If you don't like religious freedom, go hang out in Iran.

[edit on 11/21/07 by The Axeman]

Mormons do not "gather" in Masonic halls.

Yes they did

[edit on 21-11-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes they did

A compelling argument, no doubt.

Source? Is this verifiable? If not, it's worth about a much as your "documentary."

Originally posted by pepsi78


Yes they did

Because you say so?

That's just like practically everything else you write on here: pure BS.

So, you've never researched it yourself, you are relying on a "documentary" for your info. Check.

Yes because it's well covered and done in asociation with the history chanel.
.

Really? What is arihology? I assume you are an arihologist?

I'm just saying that the 2 tribes are imaginary and they never existed.

Yeah, he plagiarized Masonic ritual for his Endowment ceremony, and incorporated some Masonic symbols in his religion... That's about all the connection there is.

Mormons:
Peter now takes Adam by the right hand and asks
"Peter—'What is that?'
"Adam—'The first token of the Aaronic Priesthood.
"Peter—'Has it a name?'
"Adam—'It has.'
"Peter—'Will you give it to me?'
"Adam—'I can not, for it is connected with my new name, but this is the sign.'


masons:
The Master and candidate holding each other by the grip, as before described. the Master says, 'What is this?'
"Ans. 'A grip.'
" 'A grip of what?'
"Ans. 'The grip of an Entered Apprentice Mason.'
" 'Has it a name?'
"Ans. 'It has.'
" 'Will you give it to me?'
"Ans. 'I did not so receive it, neither can I so impart it.' "

----------------------------------------------

mormons:
We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field.' "

Masons:
'I, . . . most solemnly and sincerely promise an and swear, that I will not give the degree of a Fellow Craft Mason to any one of an inferior degree, nor to any other being in the known world, . . . binding myself under no less penalty than to have my left breast torn open and my heart and vitals taken from thence. . . to become a prey to the wild beasts of the field, and vulture of the air, . . ."

------------------------------------------------
Mormons:
The Grip is given by clasping the hand and pressing the thumb in the hollow between the first and second knuckles of the hand."

Masons:
the pass-grip, is given by taking each other by the right hand, as though going to shake hands, and each putting his thumb between the fore and second fingers where they join the hand, and pressing the thumb between the joints."
--------------------------------------------------
mormons:
In this, the left hand is placed palm upright, directly in front of the body, there being a right angle formed at the elbow; the right hand, palm down, is placed under the elbow of the left; then drawn sharply across the bowels, and boths hands are dropped at the side."

masons:
The Penal Sign is given by putting the right hand to the left side of the bowels, the hand open, with the thumb next to the belly, and drawing it across the belly, and letting it fall; this is done tolerably quick. This alludes to the penalty of the obligation: 'Having my body severed in twain,' etc."
---------------------------------------------------------


Mormons:
"Lord—'What is this?'
"Endowee—'The second token of the Melchizedek Priesthood—The Patriarchal Grip or Sure Sign of the Nail."
"Lord—'Has it a name?'
"Endowee—'It has.'
"Lord—'Will you give it to me?'
"Endowee—'I can not for I have not yet received it.' "


Masons:
'What is this?'
"Ans. 'A grip.'
" 'A grip-of what?'
"Ans. 'The grip of a Fellow Craft Mason.'
" 'Has it a name?'
"Ans. 'It has.'
" 'Will you give it to me?'
"Ans. 'I did not so receive it, neither can I so impart it.'
=========================================


mormons:
The Grip is given by placing the thumb of back of hand and the tip of forefinger in the centre of palm, representing the piercing of the hand by a nail. It is called 'The Sign of the Nail.' "

masons:
"Grand Commander now explains the grip and word of a Knight of Malta. He says to candidate—Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and feel the print of the nails; [they join right hands, and force the first finger into the centre of the palm;]
==========================================

mormons:
Adam (Turning to the audience) — 'In your bundles brethren and sisters, you will each find an apron, you will now put it on.' "


masons:
"The Master returns to his seat while the Wardens are examining the candidate, and gets a lambskin or white apron, presents it to the candidate, and observes, 'Brother, I now present you with a lambskin or white apron. It is an emblem of innocence, and the badge of a Mason. . ."
===========================================
Mormons:
We now have the veil explained to us. We are told that it represents the veil of the temple. The marks are the same as those on the garments—the compass on the left and the square on the right side."

Masons:
the three great lights in Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compass. . . . the Square, to square our actions, and the Compass to keep us in due bounds with all mankind."
===========================================

information used from Temple Mormonism book.
I could go all night, mormonism is just masonry discuised as cristianity.

It's not that I believe it or don't. It's about people being free to believe what they want. This is America, Jack.

If you don't like religious freedom, go hang out in Iran.

No, but I am saying that the guy is a liar, I guess all masons are good people
It seems moon people do not exist so I guess he lied about it? and I guess he was a mason?

[edit on 21-11-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by pepsi78


Yes they did

Because you say so?

That's just like practically everything else you write on here: pure BS.

Yes they did in Nauvoo , mormons even reconstructed the masonic hall, and they practiced there their faith

I have to pipe up in this, but only for some theoretical background on Joseph Smith, Jr. and what is written of him while he was "transcribing" the plates back in Susquehanna County, PA

www.olivercowdery.com...
here is a link to the information that is in their county history and some documents taken from the Courts at that time. I am neither mormon or a mason, just a relative of someone that lived with/near Joseph Smith Jr. in my genealogy searches.

Happy Reading...Happy Gobble Day!

A_L

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes they did in Nauvoo , mormons even reconstructed the masonic hall, and they practiced there

their faith

Wrong. The Mormons did not use the Masonic Hall in Nauvoo for Church purposes, and were all expelled soon after they were initiated.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes they did in Nauvoo , mormons even reconstructed the masonic hall, and they practiced there

their faith

Wrong. The Mormons did not use the Masonic Hall in Nauvoo for Church purposes, and were all expelled soon after they were initiated.

who expeled who because the masons in navoo were almost all mormon
Geeee, mormons expeling mormons the temple was rebuilt by them.
They practiced mormonism....ohh I ment masonry in the halls
This with no they werent has no cover, I'm sorry

[edit on 21-11-2007 by pepsi78]

Ok, here's your Mormon view on this :p I'll try to respond from our point of view here, going in order of posting.

pepsi78:
I am not sure of the year Hyrum joined, but it was prior to the founding of the Mormon church. Joseph joined much later, in Nauvoo, sometime in the 1840s, if I recall correctly. He did actually say the moon and sun were inhabited, but he never claimed to communicate with any such inhabitants. This was actually a common idea back in those days, since people didn't know any better, though it sounds ridiculous now.

never_tell:
Joseph Smith joined the Masons primarily for the social connections, from what I've gathered from my reading of Mormon history. The gold plates he claims he had, he also claims were taken back by the angel Moroni. The 'whacky idea' that indians were Israeli descendants and members of a lost tribe, was also actually an idea that others had posited back in Smith's day. I don't know how much basis this idea has in science, but the only study I saw on this was flawed, because it excluded all indians with Eurasian DNA, assuming that it traced to post-Columbian contact, tested the remainder of the indians and *GASP* the remainder didn't have any Israeli genes... wonder why? :p I hope there are better studies out there, but I'm not a geneticist, I'm an engineer, so I'm not an expert in biology.

pepsi78:
The story did change a few times, but he never said anything about extraterrestrials. Whether the stories were in his own words, or words attributed to him, I'm not sure, but from what I've seen, they were probably his words, possibly misunderstood, possibly not.

The mormon faith is link with masonry, also not wanting to bash the mormons, but their religion involevs things like satan was the brother of jesus, jesus is an alien, god is an ailien like alot of other aliens, and god was just a human and comes from some distant planet.

Not taken as bashing. Anyway, Mormonism does say that everyone is a spirit child of God, and that Satan was the brother of Jesus, and, for that matter, the brother of you and me, and that we are 'spirit siblings', as well, along with the rest of humanity. It does say also that God used to be like us (he is no longer) and went through the trials of humanity as we do now, but he passed and became God. Whether that means God and Jesus are aliens depends on your definition of alien, but the Mormon view is that they are the same species, but God was from a different planet (Kolob) and Jesus was from Earth.

pepsi78 again: I don't know if 1500 is an accurate number of Mormon masons, but in those days there were a significant percentage of Mormons in Masonry. It's not very common today, but some still are. There's at least one on ATS, but I forgot his name. His avatar is some knight with crusades gear on (white tunic/red cross).

There is (from what I'm told) some similarity between the Mormon endowment and the Masonic rituals. However, it should be said that I am not a mason, and I haven't been through the endowment, so I cannot compare them properly.

Mormons never practiced Mormon temple rituals in any Masonic buildings. They would not have any value. The temple rituals have to be done in a temple, and would not be done anywhere else. They would have gathered in a lodge for Masonic purposes, social events, and possibly even ordinary church meetings (but this is hypothetical; I have no idea if they did or not, but it is at least conceivable), but never temple rituals. It is simply unthinkable to us.

I'm not too familiar with any of the expulsions the Masons may or may not have done. There were protests by some of the nonMormon Masons, I think mostly over the endowment/masonry similarities. The masons might have protested polygamy, like most others did, but it wasn't illegal until the Edmunds-Tucker act, passed during the Brigham Young - Utah days.

reply to post by pepsi78


Uh, yeah. Like I said, he (basically) plagiarized Masonic ritual for his endowment ceremony. Check.

That's the connection; but ritual is about intent as well as the verbage used. I know that may be hard for your narrow little mind to absorb, but it's not so black and white as you'd like it to be.

We're still talking apples and oranges.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you did not read the links in my other post on this topic; correct?

DD: Is all that Kolob stuff in the Book of Mormon? I admit I have not read it, just glanced at it a few times and read the introductions.

pepsi78:
I am not sure of the year Hyrum joined, but it was prior to the founding of the Mormon church. Joseph joined much later, in Nauvoo, sometime in the 1840s, if I recall correctly.

When you look at it, it does not really matter if Hyrum was before or after, because if you look at josoph's family you will notice it was a masonic family, his father was a mason well before mormonism took birth, they were all masons
I'll take a masonic source that I will share with axe man later.
Here:
www.freemason.org...

The father, Joseph Smith, Sr., was a documented member in upstate New York. He was raised to the degree of Master Mason on May 7, 1818 in Ontario Lodge No. 23 of Canandaigua, New York. An older son, Hyrum Smith, was a member of Mount Moriah Lodge No. 112, Palmyra New York

Really his brother, his father were masons way before mormonism took place.

never_tell:
Joseph Smith joined the Masons primarily for the social connections, from what I've gathered from my reading of Mormon history.

No, he came from a masonic background from the start, all the integration of things that were to come from masonry to mormonism were the result of that.

pepsi78:
The story did change a few times, but he never said anything about extraterrestrials. Whether the stories were in his own words, or words attributed to him, I'm not sure, but from what I've seen, they were probably his words, possibly misunderstood, possibly not.

Well acording to the mormon faith god is from another planet a place called Koleb so he might of used the term aliens.

Not taken as bashing. Anyway, Mormonism does say that everyone is a spirit child of God, and that Satan was the brother of Jesus, and, for that matter, the brother of you and me, and that we are 'spirit siblings', as well, along with the rest of humanity. It does say also that God used to be like us (he is no longer) and went through the trials of humanity as we do now, but he passed and became God. Whether that means God and Jesus are aliens depends on your definition of alien, but the Mormon view is that they are the same species, but God was from a different planet (Kolob) and Jesus was from Earth.

That is in direct contradiction with cristaian teachings and with the bible.
God has no begining and has not end, he is the alfa and omega, the book of mormonis has a diferent story tho.

pepsi78 again: I don't know if 1500 is an accurate number of Mormon masons, but in those days there were a significant percentage of Mormons in Masonry. It's not very common today, but some still are. There's at least one on ATS, but I forgot his name. His avatar is some knight with crusades gear on (white tunic/red cross).

almost all of the mormons when the mormon faith was under the early beginings ..alomost all of them were masons.

There is (from what I'm told) some similarity between the Mormon endowment and the Masonic rituals. However, it should be said that I am not a mason, and I haven't been through the endowment, so I cannot compare them properly.

Well, if you are a mormon you can practice your faith but I just don't agree with it, but you know I have nothing against anything, as long as people are transparent, that's what I mind about masonry, it's just hidden.

Mormons never practiced Mormon temple rituals in any Masonic buildings. They would not have any value. The temple rituals have to be done in a temple, and would not be done anywhere else.

From what I understand it was practiced on the upper flor of the temple.

What I think any way is just mormonism is masonry in plain view.


[edit on 22-11-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by The Axeman
reply to post by pepsi78

 

Uh, yeah. Like I said, he (basically) plagiarized Masonic ritual for his endowment ceremony. Check.

That's the connection; but ritual is about intent as well as the verbage used. I know that may be hard for your narrow little mind to absorb, but it's not so black and white as you'd like it to be.

We're still talking apples and oranges.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you did not read the links in my other post on this topic; correct?

DD: Is all that Kolob stuff in the Book of Mormon? I admit I have not read it, just glanced at it a few times and read the introductions.

Yea sure

From a masonic point of view.
Your elected masonic magazine.
Wow it's even on the first line.
www.freemason.org...

Mormonism and Freemasonry are so intimately interwoven and interrelated that the two can never be dissociated

Enjoy

reply to post by The Axeman

DD: Is all that Kolob stuff in the Book of Mormon? I admit I have not read it, just glanced at it a few times and read the introductions.

Kolob is not mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon, but it is mentioned briefly in the Book of Abraham (chapter 3 and 5, according to a computer search), which is also canonized Mormon scripture. I think Joseph Smith also mentioned it a few times in talks or letters or that sort of thing.

Source
The rise of sentiment for the anti-Masonic party and all the publicity from stage presentations mocking the craft was further fueled by the public claims that Joseph Smith, Jr., had used Masonic work to produce the Book of Mormon. The public lumped them into the same basket and with the Masonic background of the Smith's, Mormonism and Freemasonry became so interwoven in the public mind as to be one and the same.

(emphasis mine)

We all know that the "public mind" can never be wrong, right?

Besides that, the article is Terry Chateau's interpretation of the facts, and just because alot of the founding Mormons were Masons doesn't make the connections so steadfast as you would like them to be.

Again I say, the Temple Endowment Ceremony greatly resembles Masonic ritual in structure and some Masonic symbols were incorporated into Mormonism. I already stated this.

On a side note, how curious that the article you choose to quote from can also be found on Freemasonrywatch.org. Do you think that is coincidence, that they chose that article over the many available? I can't speak to Bro. Ralph's thinking, but again, it is one man's opinion/interpretation of research, so, it is what it is.

Source
How did Joseph's Masonic membership affect the development of the Mormon Church? The most significant area appears to be in the development of the Mormon temple ceremonies. As noted above, Joseph became a Mason on March 15, 1842 and "rose to the sublime degree" the following day. Less than two months later, on May 4, 1842, Joseph introduced the temple endowment ceremony (History of the Church, Vol. 5, pp. 1-2).

(emphasis mine)

So, despite the fact that the Smiths, et al were Masons, and the temple ceremony/symbols notwithstanding, there is really not a whole lot of resemblance/connection between the two entities. And even if there is/was it still boils down to Joseph Smith and his intentions for his church. This is a Mormon issue, not a Mason issue.

And let's not forget the most important thing: Freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion. Masonry does not claim to be a path to salvation or any of the other qualifiers to be categorized a Religion. Probably one of the reasons Smith thought it to be "corrupted."

source
When the Saints reached Utah, their official involvement with Masonry was curtailed. Apostle George A. Smith suggested forming a “Mormon Grand Lodge,” but Brigham Young felt that “no good could come of it”; the situation further calcified when “Gentile” lodges were established in Salt Lake City. In time, not only did the Utah lodges prohibit Mormons, but Mormons prohibited Masons from holding priesthood leadership positions in the Latter-day Saint Church.

(emphasis mine)

ibid.
In 1984, President Spencer W. Kimball removed the prohibition against Latter-day Saints becoming Freemasons. Later that year, the Grand Lodge of Utah removed its own ban on Mormon membership so that, in the twenty ensuing years, many Latter-day Saint men began to reclaim this part of their heritage. Respected men in the LDS Church have since become leaders in the Masonic fraternity throughout the world.

Did you catch that? 1984. Just over 20 years ago did the mutual exclusion between the two organizations dissolve.

Yeah, they're connected at the hip alright.


[edit on 11/23/07 by The Axeman]

(quick background: a deep-down lover of the mormon faith, but at the same time a dirty apostate. and also, my great great....grandfather is parley p.)

are we really arguing about the endowment versus masonic rituals? surely there can be NO DOUBT that they resemble one another!

the question therefore becomes, which one came first?

those ugly debunkers out there will tell you that our most beloved seer prophet and revelator, joseph smith, merely copied the ritual.

but i have always been fascinated by the philosophizing of my father....he says that the real truth and the corrupted truth (or lie) will always resemble one another in every detail except for one. and that one single deviance within the corrupted truth is the source of manipulation of the entirety of humanity.

yes, joseph witnessed the masonic rituals, and very quickly rose to the upper echelon of their organization. but, just as quickly, he was able to recognize that the power that these people welded was not intended for the enlightenment of the human soul.

so, i ask you....why should THEE truth NOT resemble THEE lie?

reply to post by The Axeman


The articles you just gave from the source I have provided first just proves that mormonism spang from masonry, it does not prove anything else.
Your interpretation is that masonry involvement is not intentional because non mormon masons did not participate in doing this.
Where I'm getting is that no matter how you put it mormonism is just a copy of masonic filosofy.

The articles provided by you only state that mormonism and masonry are the same .
It does not matter if it's not a masonic matter and if there is a tension betwen the 2 factions, what matter is that mormonism took off from masonic dogma.
All the material posted by you states that

The rise of sentiment for the anti-Masonic party and all the publicity from stage presentations mocking the craft was further fueled by the public claims that Joseph Smith, Jr., had used Masonic work to produce the Book of Mormon

It's just that, as it is writen, the mormon faith developed from a masonic family.


You are trying to distort facts by saying that there is no afiliation betwen the 2 groups, so what? 2 groups do not have to be afiliates to be the same.
If smith copied masonry and itegrated it in his new faith I see no problem at all, It's just easy for me to expose stuff since masonry and mormonism are so alike

I'll get to the similarities later, I want to make it nice, you know to stick out....I just have to arange my work...
There are tons.