Upside down cross on popes chair.

it's mr

huh.. please don't tell me i accidentally sweared in a post again.

I had a premenision dream 2 days ago.. and I was so stunned i accidentally wrote the "holy ****" .. haha.. and my text was moved to below..

ok offcourse i agree. it's not that conspiracy related.. but i was kinda saddened.. cuz i mean.. hey.. i dream of something related 2 the future..and it was really weird.

but ey.. I'm usually really polite ;D and not a troll or anything.

so errrr.. check out my other tread ;D

Originally posted by stumason
Er, no. It is a stylised Iron Cross, as taken from the Tetonic Knights. Unless they worshipped Shamash, I fail to see how you come to this conclusion.

Unless they worshipped Shamash or Baal.????????????.................BINGO, we have a winner.www.aloha.net...

Now you need to figure out who Baal (Shamash) is.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by stumason
Er, no. It is a stylised Iron Cross, as taken from the Tetonic Knights. Unless they worshipped Shamash, I fail to see how you come to this conclusion.

Unless they worshipped Shamash or Baal.????????????.................BINGO, we have a winner.www.aloha.net...

Now you need to figure out who Baal (Shamash) is.

Linky no work...

try again, or expalin in your own words and not some dodgy obscure site.

Word to the wise.. Don't trust everything you read on the web!

i dont trust anything haha.

but pictures are worth a thousand words

Right, got the link to work in the end by doing some copying and pasting of part of the URL...

Had a read, don't buy it. for the simple reason, how the hell did babylonian gods manage to survive across the millenia to be intergrated into the Catholic Church?

I do acknowledge, however, that the Church absorbed many of the pagan Roman practices that were around during it's formation. Christmas for example is a good one. It is orginally the festival of Saturnalia, but was adopted by the church for several reasons, primarily, if they could adopt or change as many of the Pagan festivals into Christian ones, it makes conversion a whole lot easier.

But that does not detract from the fact that they worship Christ and not some other God who was not worshipped at all during the Roman period and was probably never heard of, considering Babylon fell many centuries prior to the Roman Empire.

In short, your clutching at straws and pointing out symbols that are evident all over the globe as evidence of some Global millenia old worship of a deity no one knew existed in the 1st Century AD

[edit on 22/1/07 by stumason]

Incidentaly, on the very same site you posted as "evidence" of catholic Sun worship, there is actually a rebuttal by a RC

Rebuttal

Not so clear cut now, hey?

Originally posted by stumason
Incidentaly, on the very same site you posted as "evidence" of catholic Sun worship, there is actually a rebuttal by a RC

Rebuttal

Not so clear cut now, hey?

Oh it's completely clear cut. I can chop their commentary to pieces.

Please feel free to pick the part of their rebuttal that you feel confident in and I will shred it to little bitty pieces.

I have dealt with their rebuttal before...........it's got no legs to stand on.l

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by Byrd
I thought everyone knew this one!

Seriously, it's common knowledge that it's St. Peter's cross.

dude! CHECK your sources again! and get it right this time!

I can follow your line of thought

but err.. aren't y'all ignoring the most important aspect of it.

The popes ceremonial dress is designed after a mushroom.

I mean.. come on..


The guys a Gnostic media are surely not correct on MANY issues.

But come on.
Soma? .. the last stage of amanitas life cycle is called grail.
need i say again - the pope is dressed like a mushroom.

I mean shamans use entheogens.

If we wish to understand the writings and symbols of that age.

We can't ignore herbs in rituals.




actually.. how come there isn't a "war on drugs" conspiracy forum on ATS?

please don't think im just the typical stoner dude.

And if you've got that stereotype in your head.
Ignoring drugs in conspiracies is just plain ignorance.

Every day when Wallstreet opens.
Yes there on the big screen is also the Currency of Heroin, Cocain, etc.

Y'all know edward barneys right? .. then think about how much power the medical industry actually owns.

Think about it.. in medieval times. what besides ground, jewelry, and slavery was there to trade with?

Spices. and herbs.
Drug trade isn't just a big economic business.. it's HUUUGE.


Have any of you studied Biology.
Since the 80ties biologist have known that survival of the fittest probably wasn't the way creatures managed to survive.

But the main influence was endosymbiosis. or rather. cooperation between species of microorganisms.

Ever read Terrence mckennas stoned monkey theory?

It theorieses that the main reason that homo sapiens outlived the other genus' was that they started using psylocybin.

Now look at recent MAPS studies that show that Psylocybin works as a potent OCD medicine.
And how many people aren't being dianosed with OCD these times?

off course it could also be that doctors didn't recoqnize it before now.

But another reality could be - that since psylocybin has been taken away from the human diet:
Ritualistic centers in the brain are being inherintly decreased.

People eating shrooms develop schizophrenic symptoms. or straight out schizophrenia.
According to terrence mckenna. this would be the way that we started distingueshing our race from animals.

then why don't reindeer develop like us then. they also eat fly-agaric.
yes true. but they don't have thumbs.

Cavemen smoked marijuana. that's fact


so err.. ;D what cha think?


[edit on 23-1-2007 by kashyapa]

StuMason

all a bit strange as

the first century christians actually believed in reincarnation not the resurrection as it became known.

The lost book of Enoch circa 100 ad (well well well prior to any other gospel accepted within the bible by about 200-400 years) actually states that as god described his genesis moments he mentions that the "heavans were then split into 12 parts, 12 segments of sky" (the horoscope houses) and in the centre of these his "son" would come from.

Strange how all these things were changed to create the religeon we know today as christianity.

This is why we dont see the links or think there not there because history id created by the winners not by actual events in many cases.

The babylonian beliefs were transmitted across the centuries by the same means as isalm or avengelicanism or mormonism has reached most of the UK by the believers moving country and continent and orally passing on their traditions, as the Bon shaminism in Tibet became interlinked with Buddhism, How the anciant animilistic and shamanistic beliefs of the africans got mixed up with christian beliefs during the slave trade in the caribean and created Voodoism.

StuMason the belief in a Sun (son) and worship of such with the astrological beliefs attached to them have predated even Ur (the first true city) and carried on regardless with much misinterpretaion throughout human history.

Kind Regards

Elf

Originally posted by MischeviousElf


StuMason the belief in a Sun (son) and worship of such with the astrological beliefs attached to them have predated even Ur (the first true city) and carried on regardless with much misinterpretaion throughout human history.

Sun worship is actually the worship of Lucifer the bringer of light. This of course is Satan who appears as an angel of light. Nimrod becomes Baal the sun god at his death.

Christians have never believed in reincarnation.

The belief in reincarnation comes from Satan. Baal is worshiped as a golden calf. The Apis bull form Egypt is identified with Osiris who is Nimrod. Hindus don't eat the cow because of the belief in reincarnation. All from Babylon.

The belief in reincarnation comes from Satan.

I guess Jesus was confused then.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Malachi 4:5

10And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. Matthew 17:10-13

Elijah (Elias) reincarnated into John the Baptist and Jesus knew that.

And for added measure scientific proof from studies done by Dr. Ian Stevenson at the University of Virginia on reincarnation.

www.healthsystem.virginia.edu...

Originally posted by kinglizard
It's called St. Peter's Cross.

Peter asked to be crucified upside down because he didn't feel worthy to hang on the cross like Jesus. The upside down cross as a symbol of humility.

that was my first thought after seeing these pictures...

but only because of 'jeopardy'

when i first saw the cross on 'jeopardy,' i thought it was about the antichrist...

but, its simply about st peter...

but err.. moses right ;D

ok moses described The lord as following:

on the outside the lord took the form of a lamb.
but on the inside, the lord was beautiful as a doves wings.

Now take a look at Fly-agaric. on the outside it has those wolly looking white stuff.
on the inside it's white lamels look would then be the doves wings.

err.. and the pope is dressed like an amanita muscara haha.

also in the jewsih walk trough the desert. the jews found miracolous Mana.
that appeared as small bluish round things that grew like dew on plants.

Mana ;D
The arch of the covenant contained the super secret manna. and no one was allowed to see it.

It has been described as white powder. that they would bake the sacred bred out of.

Mushroom bred? ;D

Originally posted by etshrtslr

I guess Jesus was confused then.

No.........He probably knew that Elijah was caught up to heaven and didn't die. No recarnation can happen if you don't die.

1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

A few more tidbits. There is no reincarnation.

To claim that Elijah is John the Baptist is to teach reincarnation. The premise is that a spirit in a former body comes back to be born in another body. At the very least, it is transmigration. The Bible has never taught this.

In Matthew 11:13, Jesus states: “For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.” (Jesus calls him “John” not “Elijah.” Elijah is included with 'all the prophets' who came before John. In verse 14, Jesus says “and if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.” John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt and preached in the wilderness. This was the same attire that Elijah wore (2 Kings 1:8), bringing attention to the Jews of the similarity of John's mission to that of Elijah's. Prophecy has many patterns and sometime dual or more fulfillments.

Malachi had predicted that before the Messiah's appearing, Elijah would come as a forerunner (Mal. 4:5-in relation to the day of the Lord). If the people had been willing to receive Jesus as the Messiah, then John would have filled the role of Elijah. Jesus then tells them to heed His words. If John fulfills Elijah's coming then Jesus is the Messiah.

Jesus pointed to John the Baptist as a type of fulfillment of Elijah's coming but he was not a reincarnation.

This is proven in John 1:20 when the Jews sent out the priests and Levites to investigate John's ministry. They ask him if he is the Christ. He states emphatically “No!” They ask him again if he is Elijah, John answers “I am not.” This is not a temporary memory loss for John that Jesus has to correct later. In verse 25, John the Baptist is asked, ‘Why do you baptize if you are not the Christ nor Elijah nor the prophet?’ In verses 25-27 John points to the Messiah who is coming after him. He states that it is he who is the forerunner of Malachi 3:1. In Luke 1:76, we see that John's father, Zecharias, is filled with the Holy spirit and says that his child will be called the prophet of the highest and will “go before the face of the Lord and prepare His ways again.' This relates John's ministry to Mal. 3:1, 4:5, and Luke 1:17. John labored in the same Spirit and power of the former prophet by calling people to repentance and he was preparing them for the salvation that Christ would later bring.

Both are Elijah and John the Baptist are forerunners. Elijah was promised to come for the second coming not the first, therefore he is not John the Baptist. Mal.3:1 promised an unnamed forerunner Mal.3:1: “Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom you delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” Malachi speaks of two messengers one that will prepare the way for the Lord, this is none other than John the Baptizer who is foretold in Isa.40:3-4 as “The voice crying out in the wilderness: prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”

In Mal 4:5-6 he is named “ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. We are told the prophet Elijah will come before the great and terrible day of the Lord (the tribulation). In Luke 4:18 when Jesus stood up in the temple and quoted Isa.61:1-2 he stopped at proclaiming the acceptable year of the lord and did not read of the day of vengeance of our God. This is reserved for the tribulation period in which Elijah will preach before the day of the Lord! Which makes it clear that John could not be Elijah for it was not the Day of Vengeance; it still is in the future. Again, if we go back to what the angel Gabriel said: he (John) would come “in the spirit and power” of Elijah (Luke 1:17), coming in this ministry does not make him literally Elijah the prophet.

One of the strongest testimonies that John is not Elijah is on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3; Luke 9:30; Mark 9:4-5). Elijah and Moses appear and Jesus talks to Elijah. The disciples recognize him as Elijah in his original form, not as John the Baptist. One must either concede that they are 2 different people or that John the Baptist turned back into Elijah. Again, this would promote reincarnation or transmigration of a spirit going from one body to another. The Bible does not teach either. If one insists on this view then they must deal with II kings 2 where in vs. 9 Elisha asks for a double portion of Elijah’s spirit upon himself. He is promised this will be so if he sees his mentor taken to heaven. In vs. 11-12 he does see this event and Elijah's mantle falls on Elisha. In vs. 14 he struck the water and it divided just as it did before with Elijah. The Sons of the prophets see this and say, “The Spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” If Elijah’s spirit was upon Elisha then he was not taken to heaven! John had the same Spirit upon him that Elijah did. This did not change Elisha to be Elijah but gave him the same authority through the ministry of the Spirit. If one is going to use the Scripture that John the Baptizer literally came in the Spirit and power of Elijah then how did he rest on Elisha and become a double portion no less. Obviously verse 9 this means in like ministry, and function, to having authority. John came “in the spirit and power of Elijah,” the similarity being his fiery preaching and being in the wilderness (Luke 1:17; John 10:41). There are patterns that repeat themselves in the scriptures as a certain aspect is expressed in different people.

www.letusreason.org...

I don't mean to digress the thread here so if this is off the topic at hand then ignore this:

This is St. Peter's cross and is the extent to what it symbolizes. If there is a conspiracy in the Church with true Satanist-type followers in the ranks- then they think of St. Peter's cross as the upsidedown symbol of going against God and chuckle to themselves looking at it thinking they are fooling everyone. If this conspiracy exits, the majority know that symbol to be the cross of St. Peter. If the conspiracy doesn't exist, then everyone knows it's just St. Peter's cross.

Things like this can be taken out of context easily, but i'm with you on the urgency of reporting such a thing- you never know.

No.........He probably knew that Elijah was caught up to heaven and didn't die. No recarnation can happen if you don't die.

Jesus says himself that Elijah was John the Baptist

12But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

If Elijah's spirit came back as some one other than Elijah as in John the Baptist that is the definition of reincarnation otherwise it would be a resurrection.

In very explicit language, Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah. Even the disciples of Jesus understood what Jesus was saying. This identification of John to be the reincarnation of Elijah is very important when it comes to Bible prophecy. By identifying the John with Elijah, Jesus identified himself as the Messiah. The Hebrew scriptures mentions specific signs that would precede the coming of the Messiah. One of them is that Elijah will return first.

Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Mal. 4:5)

This is one of the major Messianic promises from God that is found in the Bible. And these John is Elijah references clearly demonstrate the reality of reincarnation. So there are two important conclusions we can draw from this:
(1)

The Hebrew scriptures prophesied that Elijah himself - not someone like him or someone in the same ministry as him but Elijah himself - would return before the advent of the Messiah.
(2) Jesus declared John to be Elijah when he stated that Elijah has come.
Based on these conclusions alone, either (A) or (B) must be true:
(A)

John was Elijah himself which means that Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist. And if this is true then reincarnation must belong once again in Christian theology. It also means that the concept of corpses crawling out of graves on Judgment Day can be discarded. OR...
(B)

John was not Elijah reincarnated which means that Elijah himself did not return. And if this is true then either (1) or (2) listed below is true:
(1)

Malachi's prophecy concerning Elijah's return to life before the coming of the Messiah failed to happen. This would mean that God does not keep his promise and that the Bible is fallible. OR...
(2) Jesus was not the Messiah.

Based on all the logic presented thus far, only one of the following conclusions is true:
I. Reincarnation is a reality OR...
II. Jesus was not the Messiah OR...
III. Bible prophecies are not reliable.

There is no way around this logic. Only one of the above options can be true. And because Jesus' declaration that John is Elijah is overt and direct, then the only option that can be logically true is (A).

www.near-death.com...


Judaism God's people from the old testament also teach reincarnation.

Most of the written material is very esoteric, often written in
Aramaic. Some of the prominent works dealing with this subject
are the "Zohar" (1st century) and the Arizal's "Shaar HaGilgulim"
(16th century). In the Bible itself, the idea is intimated in
Deut. 25:5-10, Deut. 33:6 and Isaiah 22:14, 65:6.

Many sources say that a soul has a maximum of three chances in
this world. One example given is that the great Talmudic sage
Hillel was a reincarnation of the Biblical figure Aaron.

The soul only comes into this world in the first place in order
to make a spiritual repair. If that is not fulfilled by the end
of one's lifetime, then the soul will be sent down once again.
The return trip may only be needed for a short time or in a
limited way. This in part explains why people are born with
handicaps or may live a brief life.

judaism.about.com...

" Many Jews are surprised to learn, or may even wish to deny, that reincarnation...is an integral part of Jewish belief..."

www.kabbalaonline.org...

Judaism teaches reincarnation Jesus was Jewish and a rabbi so logic would dictate Jesus was familiar with and taught reincarnation.

[edit on 24-1-2007 by etshrtslr]

Originally posted by etshrtslr


Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Mal. 4:5)

This is one of the major Messianic promises from God that is found in the Bible. And these John is Elijah references clearly demonstrate the reality of reincarnation. So there are two important conclusions we can draw from this:
(1)

The Hebrew scriptures prophesied that Elijah himself - not someone like him or someone in the same ministry as him but Elijah himself - would return before the advent of the Messiah.
(2) Jesus declared John to be Elijah when he stated that Elijah has come.
Based on these conclusions alone, either (A) or (B) must be true:
(A)

Or we could choose option 3 and and realize that the dreadful Day of the Lord occurs after the tribulation. As prophesied.

And if we understood scripture we would know that Jesus was sent to redeem Gods people but they followed after other gods and therefore when the Messiah came it was prophesied that the Jews would not see him and the Gentiles would become grafted in. Had the Jew not followed other gods they would have seen their Messiah and not been blinded to him. John the Baptist carried the spirit and power of Elijah and prepared the way. Elijah would not come until prior to the Messianic kingdom being set up on earth at the Day of the Lord which could not happen because Jesus was rejected as prophesied.

Further we can see that the spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha prior to Elijah being caught up. See ministry or mantle. We also see this spirit and power on John the Baptist.

2 Kings 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

Luke 1:[13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias , to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom F1 of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

[edit on 24-1-2007 by Sun Matrix]

Or we could choose option 3 and and realize that the dreadful Day of the Lord occurs after the tribulation

Umm....ok whatever you choose to believe.

Some good Points,

however if the worship of the Son is the worship of Satan then the whole of christianity is messed up. The "bringer of light" , "I am your lamp" "follow the light" all biblical quotes asociated with Jesus.

Also a bit confused (well im not but obviously some are!) if the whole christian belief structure does not allow reincarnation of some kind how come most christians are waiting for the return of christ, or is it a differant christ? or maybe just a mirage or mass hallucination when he comes, because if you are all waiting for him to return there can be only 3 explanations for his reapearance on earth as Jesus in a physical form.

1. Its a mirage, hallucination, mind control etc.

2. Its not really jesus.

3. hes reincarnated.

seems pretty simple to me if the spirit that was in christ returns to earth in a human form well it must be one of the above no? which one do you then choose if you are a devoted and somewhat blind faithed believer in this? none of them fit any christian (since being basterdised by the early Roman Catholics into a form of control and power over the believers) models of this event.

Get some things straight in your brief descriptions of historical events too, the worship of the Sun has never been linked to satanism except by christians to persecute the Pagan beliefs they followed in an adulterated form.

Your time frame on babylonians is a bit out to say the least with regard to nimrod etc and the precedance order of those beliefs and civilizations.

There is also to say in a very very modest sense much much much more evidense for reincarnation in multiple situations and cultures around the world, and none for a one life and heavan and hell etc.

"as you reap so you shall sow" etc many many refernces in the published and hidden bible for the true beliefs of early followers, do a google see the sermon on the mount written by the essenes 200- 300 bc and sourced and archeological proof, Jesus just carried on very very very old beliefs and teachings though he had a heart of love that all man should try and acquire too.

regards

elf