An Open Letter to Europe

"The EU is pro-USA and pro-Israel ???"

Uhm.... quiet one didn't say that...

In my opinion there is a difference between EU-right and EU-left...

Just look at Haider, Pim Fortuyn and that French guy that lost to Chirac earlier this year.. They're (in Fortuyn's case: were)
more right wing than most of the senators and secretaries in the U.S.

P.s: NAZI's... They were extreme right...

"Italy ? ha ha, let me laugh please....I've many Itlians friends, and for them, their country is in danger. May be you don't know it, but in some Italians areas, they don't do the Christmas party in their schools anymore. Why ? Cuz there is so many foreigns peoples, who are not Christians, that they don't want to " disturb " their non-Christians values & faith. So, like Christmas is Christians, they don't do it anymore.They removed Christmas, and they have replaced it with a so-called " multi-cultural " event !!!!!!"

Don't get me wrong... I celebrate Christmas every year. But what is now Italy, used to be pagan 1600 years ago. Those times it was the Christians who were foreigners... So it's the same story.

Hi nyeff,

Just couldn't resist to gave you a historic wake up call before you start believing in that article you posted. You have every right thinking the way you do and I congratulate you on this since you have an opinion and are not afraid to voice it. What I do think however is that you have forgotten to look at the broader picture.

You tend to look at it like the US helped Europe out of the goods of their hearts. Thats the first fault. The US never acts when its not in their interests to do so. Think about what would have happened if Nazi Germany took over the Netherlands, France, the UK, Italy,...which they were succesfully doing by the way.

Think that the US could have let something like this happen and do nothing? Soon Nazi Germany would have become a serious threat to the US itself cause the Germans were well ahead in regards to rocket technology to anyone else. If the US didn't intervene it might have become a target itself and might have lost hands down to a then great Nazi Empire hadn't it been stopped. Just think were you got your rocket technology from and your nuclear program!

Correct, from project paperclip thats where from! Over 700 top scientists from Nazi Germany including Werner von Braun and Albert Einstein were all transported to the US were they were being setup to work on various covert programs. Werner von Braun wasn't put on trial for his part in the Nazi atrocities but instead was put to work for the US. Albert Einstein and other physicists were working on your nuclear program while others were working on other projects.

Thats the real history behind the support of the US, nothing more, nothing less. Now you see why the US had to send troops and supply arms to stop the Nazis from taking over the western globe.
To deny these facts is to deny history, project paperclip is well known and documents have been revealed by the US government. Can you honestly say that in regard of this post you still can hold the same beliefs of that article you posted. I certainly hope not cause that article addresses the US intervention as something that the US did to save us Europeans while in fact other issues were certainly playing a large role in this.

Regards,
Illuminati

ThePhoenix01:

"The main problem is that there is no fundamentals differences between EU right & EU left."

i think the bandit covered this quite nicely. take a serious look at the EU - in all its many forms; the EU, the EC, the council - and you'll see that there are massive differences between right and left within EU politics.

"Italy ? ha ha, let me laugh please....I've many Itlians friends, and for them, their country is in danger. May be you don't know it, but in some Italians areas, they don't do the Christmas party in their schools anymore. ...... .They removed Christmas, and they have replaced it with a so-called " multi-cultural " event !!!!!!"

and this puts their country in danger? what are you, some christian-isolationist? so there are muslims, so what? so muslims out-number christians, so what? so people are actually thinking about other religions and trying to form ties by having multi-cultural events, so what? i think that's a good thing. it promotes understanding and solidarity, which ultimately is the way to combat fear, agression, and terrorism.

"The EU is pro-USA and pro-Israel ???"

i would not say it is pro or anti the US or israel. that's the point.

"Yes, many of us. When I can speak with common peoples, they're not agree with the medias, the gov'. They are pro-US-Israel. But they can't tell it, it's not "polliticaly correct " in a country who has to much muslims peoples."

bollocks. i don't know about you, but in the UK we have freedom of speech (well, relative freedom at least ...) and we can say what we like. try reading 'the sun' (heap of #e that it is) for a nice pro-US stance. or the guardian for a more measured response.

"Auchwitz....Quiet one, one of my 2 grand-fathers is dead in a nazi death-camp. "

and yet you speak about the removal of muslims from europe. about the expulsion of certain groups of religions. can you not see the parralells with nazi germany?

"Did you ever read my posts ? I don't think so, otherwise, you would know that I'm anti-nazis, anti-communists and so on..."

that's your problem: being anti-something creates conflict.

"I stay " ready to fight ". I think we have to fight against the terrorists. I think we don't have to show any mercy. I think we have to be sharp like a razor. I think if our so many ennemies are unhuman, we have to be more unhuman than them."

being ready to fight, ready to lower yourself to their level, makes you as bad as them. i am willing to say "No! I will not support the deaths of civilians in the name of fighting terror.", because in that way i can honestly say that i am better than the terrorists.

"When you are weak, you lose. When you are strong, you win. Our ennemies have a strong mind. They know what they want. We have to be like them, or we will have to surround."

we have to be strong, but we have to stick to the principles we hold dear: peace, human rights, etc. that does not mean launching a war.

- qo.

"left" and "right" ultimately defy the laws of space: they differ, they differ more, they differ even more but eventually, like Pigs and farmers in Orwell's 'Animal Farm' they suddenly become indistinguishable.
If the terms mean anything clear any longer, if they ever did, they suddenly lose all distinctiveness and mean much the same.
Stalin? Mao? surely "left" by definition. And Hitler? The national Socialist Party -"left" in name at least.
( at this point someone babbles "real" -" not real Communists, real Socialists blah blah yawn.)
On balance, abstractly, one will expect the left to tend to tyranny more often than the right: the left has the masses the rightwil tend to have an elite; the left purports to want change; the right tends to conservatism; the left exalts the State above individuals; the right tends to constrict the state in favour of some, at least, individuals; the left wants control of the economy; the right tends to laissez-faire capitalism; the left etnds to atheism or a State Religion; the right tends to support churches -it is after all conservative.
But once one moves from abstract to concrete: these tendencies tend to blur, even change partners, and tyranny emerges whatever the starting point.
These labels obscure far more than they wil ever illuminate.

Who knows -they define themselves by what they are NOT, rather than what they are, all too often. For every abolished death penalty there are murders; for every racial equality programme there is a host of cities throughout the West where black, brown, Muslim votes are delivered by the truckload to city barons.
And the only thing you can count on nowadays is that they all claim to be democracies. ("God on our side" is less frequent of late; but it's always there)

Posted by quiet1

" i think the bandit covered this quite nicely. take a serious look at the EU - in all its many forms; the EU, the EC, the council - and you'll see that there are massive differences between right and left within EU politics."


I don't look them. I look the results, and only the results.

posted by quiet1

" and this puts their country in danger? what are you, some christian-isolationist? so there are muslims, so what? so muslims out-number christians, so what? so people are actually thinking about other religions and trying to form ties by having multi-cultural events, so what? i think that's a good thing. it promotes understanding and solidarity, which ultimately is the way to combat fear, agression, and terrorism."

Look quiet1, may be you like or love a mutli-cultural society, ok, it's your right. But I have the same right, and me, I don't like this new multi-cutural society.

And sorry, but we don't need an MC society to promote solidarity. BTW, we ( and when I say " we ", I mean the Westerners ) are NOT the terrorists.

Posted by quiet1

"I would not say it is pro or anti the US or israel. that's the point. "

I repeat, we have to chose. We can't be neutral. Cuz with terrorists, your are with them or against them. Israel and the USA are against them ? BINGO !!! I'm pro-Israel-USA and I'm anti-terrorists.


Posted by quiet1

"bollocks. i don't know about you, but in the UK we have freedom of speech (well, relative freedom at least ...) and we can say what we like. try reading 'the sun' (heap of #e that it is) for a nice pro-US stance. or the guardian for a more measured response."

I'm glad for you. In EU mainland, we don't have freedom of speech anymore.You cannot understand me, you can't understand my point of view. In my country, when you're a foreigner ( a foreigner who's comming from Middle-East, Africa or North-Africa of course, not a foreigner from another Western country ), if you say : " I hates whites & christians, they sucks", it's ok, he will not have any problems with our " justice system ". But if a white want to say : " I hate blacks & arabs, and all muslims sucks "....Ouch...this guy will be in deeps troubles. It's not fair. Minority have to much rights. I have to live with racists foreigners who can call me a #ing white, but if I want to use the same argument I can go in jail.Nice system isn't it ? Think about it, please.

Posted by quiet1

" and yet you speak about the removal of muslims from europe. about the expulsion of certain groups of religions. can you not see the parralells with nazi germany? "

Did I say : " Kill them all " or " we have to send them in death-camps " ? Did I say (write) it ? I'm not a nazi !!! Always the same. When a white want to protect his religion, his race, his culture, he have to be a nazi. Try another song !

Posted by quiet1

" that's your problem: being anti-something creates conflict. "

I'm " anti " cuz I have to live with peoples who are " anti-what I'm ".

Posted by quiet1

"being ready to fight, ready to lower yourself to their level, makes you as bad as them. i am willing to say "No! I will not support the deaths of civilians in the name of fighting terror.", because in that way i can honestly say that i am better than the terrorists."

I don't care. I'll be like them if I have to be like them. But I don't want to kill innocent peoples, I'm not an killer.
My meaning was : "Be ready to kill them all ( terrorists ) and don't hesitate, cuz they'll not hesitate to kill you "

Posted by quiet1

"we have to be strong, but we have to stick to the principles we hold dear: peace, human rights, etc. that does not mean launching a war."

These wonderfuls principles don't work with terrorists & tyrans.Speaking about human rights with a terrorists or a tyran, it's like spitting in the wind ! I don't spit in the wind.

Originally posted by Estragon
"left" and "right" ultimately defy the laws of space: they differ, they differ more, they differ even more but eventually, like Pigs and farmers in Orwell's 'Animal Farm' they suddenly become indistinguishable.

But once one moves from abstract to concrete: these tendencies tend to blur, even change partners, and tyranny emerges whatever the starting point.
These labels obscure far more than they wil ever illuminate.

Yep. You right Estragon. That's why I resigned from a so-called Belgium Right Party.If they are from the right I don't want to see what's a left party then.

Originally posted by theBandit795

Don't get me wrong... I celebrate Christmas every year. But what is now Italy, used to be pagan 1600 years ago. Those times it was the Christians who were foreigners... So it's the same story.

We are not living in the past. I don't mind with what's happened there is 1600 years ago. Really, I don't care ! Past is past. I'm living just right now. And I don't like what's going now.

ultra_phoenix:

"I don't look them. I look the results, and only the results."

then no wonder you can't tell the difference. when you see a skoda driving down the road and a mercedes, you can tell the difference, right? can you tell the difference from the tyre tracks? no. but there IS a difference, right?

"Look quiet1, may be you like or love a mutli-cultural society, ok, it's your right. But I have the same right, and me, I don't like this new multi-cutural society."

and you say you're not a nazi? ok, maybe you're not, but check out the 25 point program from 1937 (i'll send you a copy if you like) and you'll see that 'germany for germans' is pretty high on the list. you're spouting right-wing, isolationist - i'll go so far as to say FASCIST - politics left, right and center.

"BTW, we ( and when I say " we ", I mean the Westerners ) are NOT the terrorists."

rubbish. the CIA funded and trained bin laden and co. the west funded iraq against iran. what are the IRA, INLA, UDF, UDA? they are both westerners and terrorists.

"I repeat, we have to chose. We can't be neutral. Cuz with terrorists, your are with them or against them. Israel and the USA are against them ? BINGO !!! I'm pro-Israel-USA and I'm anti-terrorists."

what about the principality of lichtenstein; are you for them or against them?
see how silly the statement is? of course we're anti-terrorist - i think everyone on this board is - we just differ on the definition of terrorism and who is and is not a terrorist.

"I'm glad for you. In EU mainland, we don't have freedom of speech anymore.You cannot understand me, you can't understand my point of view. In my country, ... Nice system isn't it ? Think about it, please."

can you give me a case study? you've got the EU on your doorstep. ever taken a case to the european court? i can guarantee they'd rule in your favour. personally i think you're exagerrating. racism and racist language is wrong - illegal even - in the uk and you're arrested either way. i'm pretty sure the same goes for beligum, and i've never seen or heard anything to the contrary whilst i've been, or from the people i know there.

"Did I say : " Kill them all " or " we have to send them in death-camps " ? Did I say (write) it ? I'm not a nazi !!! Always the same. When a white want to protect his religion, his race, his culture, he have to be a nazi. Try another song !"

i never said "kill them" or "death camps" either, so don't jump to conclusions. the original nazi plan simply called for the expulsion of jews, not their murder. indeed, it was only the war - and the subsequent inability to exile jews - that led to the Final Solution. basically it comes back to the founding principles of hitler's NSDAP.

"I don't care. I'll be like them if I have to be like them. But I don't want to kill innocent peoples, I'm not an killer.
My meaning was : "Be ready to kill them all ( terrorists ) and don't hesitate, cuz they'll not hesitate to kill you " "

but, as i've said, that will solve nothing. the violence will continue.

"These wonderfuls principles don't work with terrorists & tyrans.Speaking about human rights with a terrorists or a tyran, it's like spitting in the wind ! I don't spit in the wind."

yes they do, and i point to northern ireland as an example.

- qo.

Quite One, have have to take issue with a couple points you made:

To say that being against multiculturalism is akin to Nazism is absurd. I think if you thought that one through, you'd see the serious flaws in that idea. Multicuturalism is not the same as being a "melting pot", as the U.S. was purpoted to be decades ago. Wherever a family came from, they came to the U.S. to become Americans. This was good for America as well as the family. The values and beliefs held by America was not fought as they wanted to assimilate. Today the idea is to have a "multicultural" society, and all this does is fragment the core of the country. Such ideas only work on Star Trek, where reality is unimportant. I, too, am totally against multiculturalism, but I am by no means a Nazi. I'm American and I hold fast to the documents that made this nation strong; the KJV 1611, the Articles of Confederation, the constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I am not in favor of any multiculturalism in any country as it destroys the nation's heritage and uniqueness, but what other nations do is up to them. Well, as much as it is for anyone. The "owners" of my nation have determined that multiculturalism is our path, and I see the decay of our society as a result. Along with multiculturalism comes other concepts such as relative morality.

I am prone to agree with you on suggesting that the U.S. funded terrorism as in South America, but to say that we funded terrorism by supporting Iraq against Iran (while at the same time lending Iran some limited support), but our training Bin Laden was so he could more effectively fight the Soviet expansionism. Most of our biggest blunders was in the pursuit of that mission. We acted for the moment knowing that today's actions might possibly create problems later, but we did what was necessary. I doubt many relished the thoughts of the future problems they were creating, but we all have benefited from the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

OK. Carry on. I'm sitting down now. BTW, where are the donuts and coffee in this auditorium?

You say I'm nazi because you have learned by heart your leftist rhetoric.

Finally, I don't care. If you want to think that I'm a nazi, it's your problem, not mine. I know that I'm not. But don't call me a nazi anymore ! It's really offensive.

A nazi don't support Israel.

A nazi don't have muslims friends ( yes, it's unbelievable for you, but I have some fews muslims friends ! ).

A nazi don't have black friends.

A nazi don't like freedom and liberty. ( I LOVE freedom & liberty ).

A nazi, I mean a real one, I met one of them when I was in the army. He wasalways reading " Mein Kampf ", he had a low I.Q ( 70 and I'm not kidding ), he was a moron. And I was NOT friend with him. In fact, he didn't have any friends in my unit.

So, if I'm a nazi, I'm a weird one.

TC had right on his post about multi-cultural society.A MC society is a danger for all races,ethnies, faith.... Look what's going on, just right now, in Zimbabwe. The whites are slaughtered by the blacks.
In Zimbabwe, who are the nazis for you ?

Do you remember Rwanda ? More than 1 millons peoples ( almost all blacks ) were killed by others blacks. They were not nazis may be ?

The real nazis are the muslims terrorists. In the EU, we have a new term for them. The greens fascists.

We can argue again, it's ok for me. But don't call me a nazi anymore, cuz I'm not one !

P.S : Don't make me laugh with Northern-Ireland. It took them hundreds years to have a so-called peace, and some problems are not still fixed and IRA is allways ready to go in war. Yeah, what a peace !

[Edited on 28-10-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

UThe SA was dragged kicking and screaming into WW2?

Both Germany and Japan declared war on the USA not the other way around.The USA only comitted troops to in WW2 after they had been attacked unlike the British,French,Canadians,Australians,Kiwi'sEtc.

Before the USA's entry into the war there were excellent oppotunaties for neutral America.The exchange of what are now known as The US Virgin Islands for old first world war frigates for example.Buisness was good.

Another good example of how the US has acted in good faith with her allies would be would be the Manhatten project when Britain was promised any new technology that arose from the collaberation of British and US scientists only to be denied the atom bomb at the end of the war and whats more threatened with bankruptcy if we even attempted to develope the technology ourselves.As everyone in the US is quoting Churchill these days it should be noted that he applauded the Labour Gov that followed the war for having ignored the US Gov and done it anyway.

What is always a little hard to swallow is being continually told by Americans how noble they have always acted.The Anti-semetic slurs on every European country and yet Anti-semetism started in Germany in the early 1930's America did nothing, even when war started in Sept 1939 America did nothing,only when nations declared war on them over 2 year after hostilaties broke out that they were forced to stop simply making money but actually fight.

And I'm Pro-American

But this thread has developed into a question over the future direction of the EU.If it stays the way it is then it will always be militarally weak and discordent.If it becomes a United States of Europe with an elected President and independant Military(From NATO)then who knows?

I wouldn't worry about it too much though.The French want a French EU.The Italians want an Italian EU the British want an American EU and the poor old Germans don't care who's image EU is cast in as long as they don't get the blame.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I am not in favor of any multiculturalism in any country as it destroys the nation's heritage and uniqueness, but what other nations do is up to them. Well, as much as it is for anyone. The "owners" of my nation have determined that multiculturalism is our path, and I see the decay of our society as a result. Along with multiculturalism comes other concepts such as relative morality.

My European board mates: Please excuse Thomas. He's from a part of our country that still values first cousins marrying, has a unique take on 'animal husbandry', thinks the Bible is a verbatim historical document, and has yearly referendums on teaching that evolution is just an 'opinion'!
Hey, I'm busting your chops, but you know I had to eventually work in some Southern Redneck observations, being from New York & all!
We're a young country that was made up of immigrants from the start; if you want to be a culture purist, we should all be under the Native American traditions. Comparing the USA to China or France is ridiculous; being French is having a culture, being Chinese is having a culture, being American is having almost a culture. Culture being defined as the amalgam of race/language/cuisine/traditions. I agree with you that in those old world cultures that the multi prefix ruins them. But for us, it's a never ending source of our strength because we are constantly evolving ( think Darwin here).
And a news flash for you: though I know you're not, ascribing multiculturism to suspect morality does not bode well with your anti-Nazi declaration. How can you have the hubris to suggest one culture to be more morally superior than another? I'll give the benefit of the doubt that it was poor wording. But if not, that black, Latino or Indian guy working at your job, for the same pay, same attendance, same promotions, same citizenship, same company picnic, same contribution to American society, goes home and speaks his cultures tongue to his kids, celebrates his holidays. This drops our moral standard?
The Pilgrims weren't here first, and they sure as hell are not the representative culture of this country's demographics. America is Multiculturism at it's finest example. period.

First off, you ignorant Yankee, I'll have you know that I haven't even as much as kissed any of my cousins! On the other hand, I do live next door to Mississippi, so some of those folks might slip over here from time to time....anyway:

Back to the multicultural thing. I am totally suggesting, and make no mistake, that the traditional American culture, the one that was recognized for years, nay, decades, as American culture, as being the culture of this nation. If that is what you thought I said, then you are entirely correct. The very thought that a society can endure the test of the ages as a fragmented, squabbling bunch of subsets fighting for dominance is quite silly, and unsupported by history. I do agree with the Arab nations on that, and although I am not a fan of France, I can understand why they would want to try and keep their language pure and free of Americanism.
Do I think that the traditional American culture is superior to, say, the modern-day Black subculture? Well, let's just look at the Black plight as compared to the White plight and we can see that the degenerated state of the Black subculture is not equal to or superior, but in all reality keeps Blacks down both economically and morally. Whenever a man such as Colin Powell comes along and not only makes it in traditional Americana but even excels, there arenumerous Harry Bellafonte-types who come along to call him an Uncle Tom. Ironic, isn't it, Gen Powell, while being a highly respected and admired leader, is called an Uncle Tom by a man who made a living singing and dancing for Whitey? How many times have I been told by Blacks who chose the subculture that filthy language, crotch-holding, petty-theft, drug usage and the mistreatment of women is part of their culture? Several times. These people aren't my friends, but I do talk to people other than friends. You can imagine that these people aren't what you'd call pillars of any community.
No, B-T, the Blacks that I work with at the plant do not subscribe to your multicultural world, either. While they are different than I am in speech pattern and skin culture, they subscribe to the same ideas of culture that I do, and they laugh at stupid liberal white people that try to see the "subculture" as legitimate.
As far as the Idian dude to whom you referred, he doesn't work with me. He has his own business and is doing quite well, thank you.

No, BT, a house divided will fall. That is as old as time and has been proven time and time again as this "new" way of progressive, liberal thinking is almost as old as civilization, and has taken down many societies before ours. It'll take down this one as well, assuming there is enough time before the Second Coming. But, of course, that, too, is part of the silly ol' quaint Americana that no longer fits, huh?

Well, those fundamentalist are convinced the end days are in play, with one of theirs as president, a mass influx into Israel and growing all red hefers!

Thomas, duh! And duh some more!
Good people hate 'n-word's, but love Blacks. Good people hate spics, but love Latinos. Good people hate trailer trash crackers, but love whites. You give the punk-pimples-on-the-arse-of-legitimate groups too much credit by calling them 'subcultures'.
As for the 'standard American Culture' you mention, you know full well you're living in a partial fantasy. Partial, because other cultures besides white America mainstream were not only not given a voice, face, or mention, but also actively supressed and segregated.
Hey, decent people with decent values are part of every culture & what built America. That's the Americana we can both speak of. Understanding their traditions will always mean strength and an elasticity that is the world's envy. No, we can't be compared to all these other places in static for millenia.

And you bet your sweet boiled peanut eatin' bippy I'm a damn Yankee, want to make something of it?

BT, what do you mean ?

If someone ( a white, a black, an hispanic... ) just want to preserve is religion, his way of life, want to live ONLY with same peoples like him ( blacks, white, brown..... ), he's a a fascist ?

P.S : In my opinion, evolution is just an apinion like another one and the Bible is a verbatim document. And the Torah too.

it's happening again! Start packing now!

Damn!!!

Propagated the world, Phoenix? Noah put every species of the animal kingdom in a boat?
And how do you...., nope, forget it. I am going to get too many bruises trying to squeeze my head into that microscopic aperture you call your perspective

Estragon, there's a civil war starting? Good. I've got something for Johnny Reb!