Women got it easy

Originally posted by deadboi
I guess the statistics that I linked to are just a pack of lies then.

First off, your statistics were in Canada in 1996. Yes, in 10 years, things can change a lot. Making a statement like "I'm sure things haven't changed much" doesn't do anything to further validate your argument. Second, all that does is say that the men (were) making more money in those ten fields. It doesn't say they were making more because they were men, it just says they're making more. Maybe men are more inclined to get further education or experience in those jobs? There are tons of other logical conclusions you could come to without jumping to sexism. Maybe that's something to look into - why are some people so inclined to believe that the minority is always being oppressed, rather than to look at something from a neutral point of view?

Furthermore,y ou don't seem to be making a distinction between fair and equal. Being fair and being equal are two completely different things. If everything's fair, does that necessarily mean that everybody is getting treated "equally"? No. If everything is equal, does that mean everyone is being treated fair? No, because fair and equal aren't interchangable. The men are getting paid more in these fields. Is that necessarily equal? No, but is it fair? It could be - do some research and find out. Don't just come to the conclusion that because they're not being paid equally, there's sexism or prejudice going on.

those of us who know about statistics also know you can make them read just about anything you want.

You have not refuted my statement..you just quote statistics which are often politically derived..not in actually ..not in the workplace ..just political statistics.

Why men earn more

Warren Farrell
ISBN 0814472109

Warren in this books quotes the same statistics and shows where these statistics are politically derived not actually derived from what happens in the workplace.
By the way..Warren Farrell...is a PHD and was a member of NOW before he caught on to alot of what the womens movemet are really doing out here.
Its a good read ..though I dont always agree with his conclusions it is definitely food for deep thought.

I agree with Dr Strangelove..there is alot of "Victimization" going on her with the intent of being able to play through unchallanged..by default. A set of circumstances which will often not hold up under deep scrutiny and thought. They do however seek to play through by the default setting called "Victimization" Another word for this is the "Victim Dictim"
It gets pitiful no matter what sex or person is doing it. Some of you need to understand that this "Victimization " has been so overdone and used by everyone that it is similar to watching a bad movie 300 times. Some people have begun to think outside of these settings.

The recent textbook example of this default setting seeking to play through unchallanged is the Duke University Lacross team. I was shocked by the events recently thinking myself that these guys were already executed. Dead. Then the DNA samples came back without being able to tie in any of the team to the events. What a shock ...most peoples already had these people executed ...tried and executed ...the vultures were circling to pick the bones.
This is a default setting to play through...unchallanged. This is textbook. Male disposability and expendability based on stereotyping. I too fell for it at the begining ..no way out for these guys.
Yet they removed the coach and the team from the school agenda over this. I'm wondering who is going to be suing whom in this. I also wonder ..but not to hard...if the media is going to cover the aftermath of this with the enthusiasm that they covered the initial story like the vultures they are.

By the way deadboi..im a nuclear fueler/refueler. I often have to work over a open hole looking down into the primary coolant water in these reactors...its quite hot and contaminated. How many women do you think are looking for the opportunity to take my job in equality and fairness???
While this does not make me better than others..I know that women are not looking to get this job....no matter what it pays. Be careful when you quote statistics..this occupation is not reflected in those statistics.

Gotta run . take care,
Orangetom

As usual, I will agree with most of what orangetom says. But for those of you who are talking about women playing the victim card, I have seen at least one man do this, on this very thread:

Originally posted by Herman
I can definitely relate to Wolf of War. Ever heard of the "white man's burden?"....yeah.... Reverse racism and sexism is always ok because we've oppressed them of so long.

Men and women are different. They have different problems and issues to deal with. It's all about the perspective you see things from. Feeling sorry for yourself will get you nowhere in life and will make you an unpleasant person to be around.

It is grossly unfair to say that all women have it easier because of a few bimbos. :shk:

PS. I'm the only female in the office and the rest are *gasp* white males.

Alright those stats may have been doctored to look bad being from a lobby group site, here are some stats from the U.S. Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics. These are from 2005 and list 200 occupations, straight stats not influenced by any lobby groups, unless the whole system is corrupt.

Originally posted by Herman
Don't just come to the conclusion that because they're not being paid equally, there's sexism or prejudice going on.

Of course there could be other factors as to why they could be getting paid less however sexism and prejudice cannot be ruled out as a contributing factor.

Job segregation is still an issue, "this is mans work" and "this is womans work" and any one who tries to go against it is going to run into problems. Whether is a man wanting to do "womans work" or a woman trying to do "mans work" there is going to be friction when in a perfect world there shouldn't be. However we don't live in a perfect world, we live in an evolving world. Women in the work force is still relatively new and things have been improving but there are still meat heads out there who are sexist be it man or woman.

And I don't agree with a lot of the fanatical womens right stuff about how all men are pigs, dogs, scum, etc. And a lot of the stuff they say is the same crap that has been oppressing women but directed towards men.

However we have been getting off topic, this thread is not about equal pay it is about how women “get it easy” because of their ability to manipulate men.

Women can manipulate men, men can also manipulate women. In both cases and your right orangetom1999 anybody who is going to manipulate you is not going to respect you.

And I don't go for a lot of the victimized woman stuff either. When I was younger I worked in a kitchen and some of the girls there would try and get guys to do everything for them. Like getting stuff off a shelf: “Can you get that for me?”, they would say really sweetly and bat there eyelashes. “There is a step stool in the back.” I would reply. “Yeah but....”. “In the back next to the washroom”. I would then proceed to walk them to the back of the store, it was a small shop so maybe a total of 15 steps, point out where the step stool was (they knew where it was), walk with them while they carried it back to the front all they while telling them how they should learn to do stuff for themselves cause eventually there is going to come a time when nobody is going to be around to do it for them. Then remind them to put the stool back where they found it when they were done.

This happened with almost every girl we hired and even a few guys. Some of them were quite shocked and/or offended that I wasn't going to do their work for them. This was in the “rich” end of town and most of the kids working there were from well off families and were only there because mommy and daddy said they needed a job. And many of them were quite good at manipulating other staff to do things for them, but I was a real hard ***. Eventually they would learn that I'm not going to do anything for them that they are perfectly capable of doing on their own. Now if they were 90 lbs soaking wet I wouldn't expect them to be able to stack the full beer kegs in which case I would do that.

Well the chick you talk of is lucky... i wouldn't and couldn't do that cuss a. i wouldn't want to and b. ive got like 3 guy friends that might go fetch my bag but id do the same for them...although guys are for giving i hit chris in the nads (... i was sitting in the hall and chris came up on one side and matt on the other and they picked me up and i told/ had told them not to pick me up so i hit chris...hehe 6 foot 3 and curled in a ball) and he told me he was never talking to me and he still does...and girls carry grugges because this girl elz. from the 3rd grade owes me 50 cents...so guys have a better chance in most things like jobs

Originally posted by deadboi

Of course there could be other factors as to why they could be getting paid less however sexism and prejudice cannot be ruled out as a contributing factor.

Job segregation is still an issue, "this is mans work" and "this is womans work" and any one who tries to go against it is going to run into problems. Whether is a man wanting to do "womans work" or a woman trying to do "mans work" there is going to be friction when in a perfect world there shouldn't be. However we don't live in a perfect world, we live in an evolving world. Women in the work force is still relatively new and things have been improving but there are still meat heads out there who are sexist be it man or woman.

Of course you can never completely rule out prejudice, but logic would dictate that that's no reason to say that women have it harder in the work force. It can't be ruled out, but it's not confirmed. And no, we'll never live in a perfect world, but men and women also weren't created totally equally. That's not to say they don't deserve the same rights, because they most certainly do, but men and women definitely have individual attributes that make them better at certain tasks, and I think they should utilize those. It's my belief that when you average out these attributes, neither women or men have a complete advantage. So yes, there are certain jobs that men are better suited for, and vice versa. Take firefighting for example. It's going to be MUCH harder for a woman to get the job (Assuming they used the same standards for both sexes, which they should), because physically most women don't have as much muscle mass as men. But I'm getting off the point, and probably telling you something that you already know.

Well said Duzey..well said.

I agree ...it is about the difference in perspective..and many do not want to look that far...it takes to much work and to much commitment ..the "victim card" is much easier to use in allowing many to play through.

I dont care for the victim card obviously.

I have often said in my posts..more men need to pull thier heads out of thier backside and think outside of this sports/cheerleader mentality which so permeates male thinking to the point of ...like being on a drug. It sickens me... What a bunch of really dumb men. One dimensional.

THanks for your post Duzy..Hope all is well with you and yours,
Orangetom

I am going to tell you where the primary difference comes in ..in the workplace..male and female.

The difference is in socialization traditions/skills...not in the Equality or fairness dogmas so popular.

What we are talking about is the difference in Male and Female socialilzation skills used to get through life. This is what is in play to get tasks accomplished. Not the equality fairness doctrines..this is also what is not reflected in the statistics. This is also what deadboi is describing in his post.

These skills fall into play with many women for different reasons. THey are social skills to get someone else to get them through the hardest hurdles..or even to just get someone else to do it for them even though they could do it themselves. It eventually becomes about power and control over others. The womens groups never bring up this facet of "control" Among men this control over them is based on male ignorance of how it works. Male brainwaves flatline most often when this series of events is in play. This is known..Herman...just stick a copy of the swimsuit edition in front of most males no matter what their education levels and watch the brainwave functions ...flatline. No thinking going on.

This socialization skills..this disparity in socialization skills is what often passes for equality in the workplace when it is obviously not..equality or fairness at all. It also cheats both men and women who are trying on their own merits to tow the line and do thier jobs.
I can assure you Herman that women dont like this either when other women get over ..and they are trying honestly and with integrety to do their jobs to the best of thier ability and another woman cuts them off using cheap socialization skills. Its just that in female socialization ..they dont often tell on each other ..in this arena.

The main thing here is that men should be smarter than this ..which is what deadboi is alluding to and explaining in his post.
This is why I often say..what a dumb bunch of men.
I can assure you Herman ..the woman I am seeing..as a office manager..and over several offices...has far more difficulty with the women working under her ..because of these socialization skills being substituted for real work effort. She has learned to despise this type of conduct, spot it very quickly, and looks for ways to weed out this type of woman...they tend to make everyone else work much harder. She knows she is better off without them. She also knows that most of them can be identified by a discernable set of fingerprints...stereotyping if you like.

One more important thing. A guy who does this type of thing is not much different than a woman...he too is high maintenance. I do not know of many women who want a career in taking care of a high maintenance man. This type of man too..will use thier social skills to get over..it works for awhile with a certain type of woman..the dumb ones ..but most catch on faster than men will catch on. You see ...Herman..women understand competition for goods and services much better and as Duzy states..from a different perspective than a man. Women are by and large not looking for high maintenance competition from a man as a career..understand?? THey will prefer the high maintenance on thier side of the fence.
This is important in understanding the social skills which often go unnoticed or unspoken of in these types of discussions..this is also not reflected in the statistics...from any "Departments".
The social skills used and which often come into play is the source of much of this dischord...in the workplace...many of us need to wise up. Male and Female.


Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Duzey
As usual, I will agree with most of what orangetom says. But for those of you who are talking about women playing the victim card, I have seen at least one man do this, on this very thread:

Originally posted by Herman
I can definitely relate to Wolf of War. Ever heard of the "white man's burden?"....yeah.... Reverse racism and sexism is always ok because we've oppressed them (I meant for not of.) so long.

I was more using this in a dry sarcastic manner to explain what was going on. Sexism against men is generally ok. Any air of sexism coming from a man towards women turns people into self-righteous maniacs. I mean for Christ's sake, there are literally companys that hand out money to women who are starting small businesses simply because they're women. My own dad was at a conference where they were literally giving thousands of dollars to women, and not checking up on what they were doing with it. Maybe it's different in Canada, but all sorts of stuff like this happens, and in my book, that's just plain wrong. I'm starting out on the same level as these people, so why should they get an advantage like that over me?

Orange, I'll have to reply to you later. It's a pretty long post, and I've gotta go to work .

Again, I will point out that life is not fair.

Is it fair that I am addressed and 'hon' and 'darling' by my male co-workers? No. Does it happen? Yes. I deal with it and move past it.

When I worked at a car dealership, did I like it when a customer would say 'I want to talk to a man' because there is no way a woman could know what she was talking about? No, I didn't but you surely didn't hear me complaining about it. That's life.

Is it right that women in business are labelled as bitches when a man is called assertive for the exact same behaviour? No, but that's something I have to constantly be aware of or risk damaging my career.

Was my boss worried about being PC when he told me the thing he liked best about me was that I wasn't a 'girly-girl'? No, but I took it as the compliment it was meant to be and didn't complain about a sexist remark.

Everybody has certain handicaps they must overcome in their working career. Those who can deal with it in a positive matter and work harder to compensate are the ones who are respected.

Generalizing about an entire sex based on the behaviour of a few is plain silly. Eventually these girls will run into a boss like orangetom's lady friend or myself and it just isn't going to cut it anymore.

I'm doing well orangetom, thanks for asking. I hope the same holds true for you.

Not to be offensive, but I really don't like it when people resort to the "quit complaining" argument. I don't know if it was directed at me, but this is a discussion board. In fact, the reason I'm saying these things is because I'm responding to women complaining about men. That's what this thread is for. Pointing out things like that isn't "complaining", it's discussing them in the appropriate forum. And if you weren't aware, listing those things you listed make you a complainer as well.

I'm not calling you a complainer, Herman. And I am not trying to complain either. I realized long ago that it gets me nowhere. I'm just trying to show that neither side has it easier, they just have different problems.

And I don't think I can be counted as a manbasher in this thread. I have issues, but they are with specific men, not the entire sex. I try hard not to generalize about entire groups based on the actions of a few.

For example, I have nothing but the utmost respect for orangetom and the advice he gives. And he is male.

It was probably me telling Wolf of War to stop whining and complaining in the context that women dont respect a whining complaining man like that. This was in response to reading the first post by him on Page 1.

Orangetom

Something happened to me this evening that I thought might be of some small relevance to this thread. I realized that we have been concentrating on just one area of life, when there are so many other areas to examine. Forgive the length, please, I really do get around to a point somewhere near the end.

I live in an older apartment building, which means it is wood and not as quiet as a concrete building. I have an ongoing problem with the person who lives in the apartment above me about my love of rap music. And it's not like it's really loud or late at night. I'm talking 6PM on a Friday night.

I was polite the first few times he came down and knocked on my door, and tried to be obliging. The first time it happened, I turned off my sub-woofer which takes the system from 400 watts to 200. It cuts out most of the bass. The second time, I turned it down from 13 to 10. The third time, I took it down to 8. The fourth time, I expressed my annoyance to him, but I still turned it down to 6. The fifth time, I told him it wasn't loud at all and closed the door. After that, he took to banging on the floor with a hammer, which caused me to turn up the volume so I could drown him out.

The management of the building told him to stop harrassing me because you aren't supposed to go knocking on people doors, you're supposed to call them and they decided if rules are being broken. They investigated his complaint and came to the decision that he is an idiot. He was advised that if he bothered me again, he would be evicted.

Tonight, I had the stereo on at a reasonable level and was stupid enough not to check the peephole before I opened the door. He told me, not asked, to turn my stereo down. I said no and when I went to close the door, he pushed it back in and started yelling at me. I kept trying to close the door and he kept pushing back on it. Finally, I pulled back on it and then managed to slam it quickly before he could push on it again. I don't have the physical strength to do a darn thing about it if he had chosen to push his way in.

I'm not trying to say that he's a jerk to me because I'm female. What I'm trying to get across is that I would have really liked to have had that greater physical strength to shut the door and feel less threatened by him. It's an enormous asset for a man if he doesn't allow users to take advantage of it.

If I were a man, I would have told him off good.

It's an enormous asset for a man if he doesn't allow users to take advantage of it.

Women have a huge advantage over men....who needs strength when you can kick 'em in the gonads.


.OO.



[edit on 15/4/2006 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by SportyMB

Women have a huge advantage over men....who needs strength when you can kick 'em in the gonads.

Do you see the absurdness if it were to be the other way around and a male kicked her in her privates?there would be an out cry from both sex`s not just women.Yet it is common to see it as funny and in a lot of cases women are made out to be hero`s for doing it.

Want equality ladies and be treated the same??? yeah did`nt think so.

I think it is improtant to state the obvious that, Men and Women are not equall and will never be equal. No matter the statistics, no matter the court cases, women will still expect to be treated as women and men will still be treated as men.
Do you think a man could ask for maternity leave ? or claim cramps and claim the day off ? Not happening. If you want get paid like a man you have to start acting like a man and taking the responsibilites of a man, stay the long hours in meetings, play the politics, etc the whole nine yards. To claim that women are always subjugared for being women is absurd. There are many women who are able to meet a companies demands and have risen up the corporate ladder to postions of power(Ex: Hewlett Packard former chief Carly Fiorina).

I do agree there are some cases where there is indeed discrimination which is sad but I think necessity also plays a part in this.

I was in the workforce when the Thomas hearings occured.

In the company I worked for, Anita Hill's testimony ended the advancement of women right there.

The new company policy became that

a) no manager (male) could talk to a woman in the office with the door closed.

b) employees couldn't go anyplace after work as a group.


These rules had the following effects.

1. No woman ever knew in advance about any changes by mgt, since they never got called into an office for a private "heads up!" No one ever told them their division would be down-sized, or there might be an audit because accounting wanted them replaced, etc. In our work, this was a HUGE career handicap. But in '92, no mgr wanted to ever be alone with a female worker again.

2. "The boys" started meeting at a local topless bar, where the chances that a female co-worker would bump into them were zero. There, they would drink to excess and plan group responses to management's latest stupid idea. This meant that "the boys" still responded as a unit to hostile work events, whereas every woman was on her own.

None of this was done out of hate for women, just self protection.

That pattern is exactly what Warren Farrell describes in certain scenerios in his series of books. Where the statistics are politically skewed....to support the default settings to play through unchallanged and the feedback or effects of which you describe in your example of the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas buisness and how it has backfired alot on the womens movements since those days.

Social Engineers keep trying to force something by law or judicial decree that the social structure is not geared to support. It tends to cog up the system if left to its ultimate conclusions.

Good post Dr Strangelove.
Thanks,
Orangetom

(in Old-slobovian, it's pronounced "strange-CRAFT" with the emphasis on the last syllable. it derives from the Latin "dr. strangelove" + old english " H. P. Lovecraft")

Can I prove to you that I'm an unlettered rube??

Warren Farrell? who's he? Didn't he start out on Saturday Night Live, and then go on to make are really bad "elf" movie???