Jesus Never Existed. End of story.

Originally posted by TheBlueSoldier

So historical documents from all over the world that state a person clearly exists is not evidence? That's just plain ignorance. Here's a question, do you believe that Julius Caesar existed? We have no body nor any forensic evidence that he once existed (Roman tradition was burning the body to ashes). The only thing that proves Julius Caesar existed was the documents and written evidence, and there is just as much evidence that supports the existence of Julius Caesar as there is Jesus Christ (look at my first quote in my previous post). And by the way, have you ever heard of the "Shroud of Turin"? There's some physical evidence for ya.

Ok for one thing where is this documental evidence for jesus from all over the world? Secondly there is a big difference in jesus and julius caesar, I mean did people not write about caesar when he was ALIVE?, was jesus not good enough to write about when he was alive?
Shroud of Turin? evidence? Where? Ooooh the C14 dating was wrong and it could be possibly 2000 years old - Possibly being the operative word. Also if it was 2000 years old it is only through inference that it is jesus, might not be!


G

Originally posted by Al Davison
Wooohooo! You've really opened a can of worms in which I am very well-versed. The question for you is: Do you know enough about this issue to discuss it? I'm ready whenever you are. My guess is that you aren't going to like the evidence very much. You won't be able to refute it (unless you are better versed than the Vatican's representatives) so, get ready for a very bumpy ride.

[edit on 17-3-2006 by Al Davison]

As a matter of fact, I know quite a lot about the Shroud of Turin. I know all about the impossible-to-replicate imprints and scarring that the shroud contains, the lashings of a the exact weapon that left blood exactly where the gospels told it would, the medical impossibilites of faking or hoaxing it with a live body or fake crucifixtion, the blood on the shroud matching exactly where a person in Roman times would bleed when being crucified, and the rigor-mortis blood clotting effects that the body left behind on the shroud. In fact, the only piece of evidence against the shroud as authentic is the carbon-dating done on a small piece of the shroud. However, people fail to realize that the shroud was stolen and restolen several times. Each time it was stolen, the shroud would be exposed to flames and ashes from torches that the theives were carrying and then it would be cooled and stashed in dark caves or in the sunlight. These factors would have made the carbon-dating effects inaccurate and even less reliable than they already are.

If you are as well-versed as I am, feel free to refute everything I just said.... that is, if you can.

OK, this is fun - I'll bite.

The carbon dating is deeply suspect but not (primarily) for the reasons you've cited. It is suspect because the chain of custody of the samples was violated - by the authorized agents of the Vatican.

The stains on the shroud clearly show that the person who was wrapped in it was not dead. Since dead bodies don't continue to bleed in a manner consistant with the forensic evidence on the shroud then you have to conclude one of two possibilities: 1) if you believe this cloth was wrapped around Jesus' body once it was removed from the cross, then you have to believe that Jesus wasn't dead (which goes against the story in the scriptures); 2) this cloth was never in contact with the body of Jesus. Well, I suppose you could draw a third conclusion, as some people do, which is that this shroud was wrapped around Jesus while he was recovering from his wounds.

In fact, there is a large body of skeptics who believe that the Vatican intentionally spoiled the carbon-dating just so people would not doubt that Jesus actually ever died.

The chain of custody of the Shroud of Turin is "shrouded" (pun intended) in great mystery.

Many thousands of people were crucified and it is highly likely many were beaten, lashed, tortured, maimed, etc. prior being executed. This cloth could have been used on someone but not necessarily Jesus.

The cloth in question is not at all of the type that would have been used as a burial shroud. The materials and weave are from the correct period but this was a very expensive piece of cloth. Now, Joseph of Arimatheawas a very rich man, indeed. Maybe he happened to use one of his best cloths - who knows? It's just not very likely but, it could have happened.

The transfer of the image defies all logic when it comes to how it could appear so undistorted when laid out flat - totally inconsistent with a transfer due to contact if it were wrapped.

The Vatican has declined to certify this as an authentic holy relic.

That's a start - there's more.

Actually, if you go into the whole Passion from beginning to end, there are many, many anomalies but, that's not on the table for now.

I would love to continue this and hear more of what you know about this. I don't have a position on this - I just find it very interesting. I am not Christian but most of what I've read about this was written by Christians - who would love to believe that the Shroud of Turin is the real thing but, they've concluded that it is not.

I've GOT to ask this. Has anyone else here bothered to check this out, in the Research Forum?

www.abovetopsecret.com...


THIS is good stuff! What ever questions you have about Jesus (or if you just need ammo) check it out!

Originally posted by Toelint
I've GOT to ask this. Has anyone else here bothered to check this out, in the Research Forum?

www.abovetopsecret.com...


THIS is good stuff! What ever questions you have about Jesus (or if you just need ammo) check it out!

Checked it out - written by a few religious people that haven't really got all their facts right, nothing that cannot be found in the bible. The first thing on jesus being a liar, legend etc they forgot non existant. They hammer out all these so called facts which when checked up fall flat.
NOT good stuff at all - well good for a laugh thats about it.


G

And so...if it's found in the Bible (and that includes the Old Testament) it's automatically a lie?

I'll ask again...one more time...Where is the proof that Jesus DID NOT exist?

Mod Edit to remove quote of previous poster.

[edit on 11-4-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Toelint
And so...if it's found in the Bible (and that includes the Old Testament) it's automatically a lie?

I'll ask again...one more time...Where is the proof that Jesus DID NOT exist?

Mod Edit to remove quote of previous poster.

[edit on 11-4-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Wheres the proof he did???? Just because millions of people believe it DOES NOT and I repeat DOES NOT make it the TRUTH. The Bible and other religious texts are full of things that cannot be proven at this time. If it is so clear cut why do we have thousands of religions/sects and cults, why isn't there that ONE bit of evidence that can prove it once and for all. I mean we've had thousands of years to collect the evidence but no not one wee snippet, not one ultimate proof. So where is this evidence?
I believe that evidence does not exist!
As for disproving jesus - IT CANT BE DONE but answer me this
Where is the proof that beer elves don't exist?


G

In order to look at this sort of thing objectively, its better to think of it in terms of a religion that you might be neutral on.

What is the evidence that Rama existed? There are documents, the Ramayana, that suggest that he existed. The information in the stories is apparently relatively accurate, with regards to the non-fantasy type stuff, for the time period it alleges to have occured in. The place names are accurate.

But does that show that he existed, and all the other characters in the story?

Originally posted by eudaimonia

www.thegodmovie.com...
Watch This Documentary! Explosive Evidence!

brian flemming is an awesome and sweet man, and knows his stuff. i loved the end when he went to his old school.

great post, this was awesome.

Originally posted by Nygdan
In order to look at this sort of thing objectively, its better to think of it in terms of a religion that you might be neutral on.

What is the evidence that Rama existed? There are documents, the Ramayana, that suggest that he existed. The information in the stories is apparently relatively accurate, with regards to the non-fantasy type stuff, for the time period it alleges to have occured in. The place names are accurate.

But does that show that he existed, and all the other characters in the story?

Granted there are names of people and places in the bible that are correct as well but does that prove anything about jesus and god? Weren't the Vedas etc dreamed in meditation be the Rishis? They are probably oral myths carried on and added to over the millenia and then written down with known names to give them credence.


G

If religion never existed what would the world be like? If there were no such things as jews, muslims, or christians and other pagan religions, would the world live in peace. No holy wars or seperation would'nt there be less pain and more love.

The Bible says the only way to heaven is through beleiving Jesus as the Messiah while other religions claim different things. Will the other religions go to hell or the time we die is the end of our existence?

The thing is, love is the answer and religion is the burden which we must lift off our shoulders.

Hi, Ijust found this thread....I have to say that I'm not a huge Bible fan, but to say that Jesus never existed at all is maybe a little off the mark.

I think he may have exsisted as a man sure, but the Miracles and rising from the dead, I'm not convinced.

The thing is, Jesus,Muhamad, and all the other religious icons existed. They have their own proof. Its your faith that counts and its only what you think that matters. i believe in freedom of choice.

But I don't beleive in beleiving is the only way to Heaven.

LOVE IS THE WAY TO HEAVEN.

Im not here to dis anyone or say that what they believe isnt real. Im just here to say that i believe in my GOD. There may be alot of corruptness around the word of GOD but that is only because there are corrupt PEOPLE. Dont you understand this is how it is supposed to be. God wants us on faith alone. We had our chance and blew it. You cant not expect corruptness around a great power. In history what have you seen human beings (with power) do to someone or something that might disrupt that power. THEY DESTROY IT. Im sorry but i believe more and more each day because of the bad things people say. Why try to discredit something that only wants the best for all people. If anything you should feel the compassion that the Christian belief tries to instill in all. You know what? My GOD loves you know matter what you say or do and i love you too. That is why i believe.


I love Jesus. I am one but still I am one. If I stand alone then let me stand alone.

There is no one in the entire human race that can say they learned about god all on their own. You sneeze and they say "god bless you" You hear thunder and it is the work of god. As a child you believe this stuff. You accept from the day you can communicate that what the adults are telling you is true. Blah blah blah.

People lie to keep others in line, this is a fact.

People didn't lie when the bible was written....................................

There is no god that comes to any individual and tells them to have faith. In fact if a god did come to you directly you would no longer need faith. Faith is something that must be driven into you because you won't figure it out alone. If there was a god then he would not be credited with a book that is so screwed up it is the biggest excuse for war. Note the number one cult around took over after winning the inquisition.

If heaven is so great why are you here?

Why would anything good require pointless suffering? Who benefits from this suffering? Oh, yeah I see, the God of Moses enjoys seeing people in pain. He is a sadistic lord. There is no forgiveness. The story is that he had his own son tortured and killed for his pleasure.

This god is a big fan of killing, he encourages it. (kill your brother)
If god allows such horror to exist here whats in store for you in heaven?

Originally posted by batel gemBel

LOVE IS THE WAY TO HEAVEN.

Couldn't have said it better myself. When Jesus arrived, he angered all of the Jewish high priests because he preached love and tolernace, not strict doctrine and seperatism. Loving your neighbor is much more important to God than sacrifices and offerings. But the main fact is that Jesus did exist. Or I should say that he does exist. Even the most hard kept of aetheist professors wouldn't try to argue his nonexistence. Julius Caesar, the man who ruled Rome had Jesus the man etched in his personal diary. Stop being so ignorant and open your eyes people!

Oh I see...you were there to comfirm this unconfined claim....or was it something you "read"......Have you ever considered that its OK to think for yourself and not just entertain the ideas you are given.....

Nope, I've never even thought of thinking on my own. Everything that has ever crossed my mind is a product of the media and what people tell me. FYI I did research on my own and posted this a month ago:

Originally posted by TheBlueSoldier
Here's a previous post that I posted on ATS a few weeks ago.
For those of you who question Jesus' existence:

-Here is a quote from a professor at Manchester University.

"Some writers may toy with the fancy of a 'Christ-myth', but they do not do so on the ground of historical evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Ceaser. It is not historians who propogate the 'Christ-myth' theories."
- F.F. Bruce, Rylands Professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at Manchester University.

-This quote is from a famous Roman Philosipher, who is relied heavily on by historians who need information from the Roman era.

Cornelius Tacitus (born A.D. 52-54):

"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumour, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for thier enormities. Christus, the founder of the name was put to death by Pontious Pilate, procurator of Juedea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischeif originated, but through the city of Rome also. " Tacitus, Annals XV, 44.

-This is a letter from a famous Jewish war tactician to his friend.

Josephus, a Jew who commanded a force during a Jewish revolt against Rome and who after defeat wrote a history of Israel twice mentions Jesus. Josephus had no reason to be a friend of Jesus, writes this

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising facts and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He was over many Jews and many of the Greeks . He was the Messiah.
When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him.
On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him, and he has still to this day not disappeared"

-This is from an enemy of the Christians who himself acknowledged the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

Lucian of Samosata

A second century satarist, who spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians. He connected them with the synagogues of Palestine and alluded to Christ as: "the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world ... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that cruicified sophist himself and living under his laws." - The Passing Peregrinus

-In the bible, Jesus is accused of being "The King of the Jews":

A historical artifact in the British Museum has a letter written by Maraben Serapion who wrote about the Jews who executed "their wise king".

-The Encyclopedia Brittanica which has irrefutable information.

"No serious historian would doubt the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. On occasions some have tried but only by ignoring the overwhelming evidence that supports the existence of Jesus. These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries" - Encyclopedia Britannica

I hope that clears a few things up.

OK, I'm not taking one side or another but BlueSoldier's post proves absolutely nothing whatesoever. Sorry.

Josephus wrote from oral history and popular legend. Tacitus, too. Later satirists and historical commentators, even those making fun of Christians, were only making references to what Christians were saying - they were not providing any historical veracity by merely commenting on popular legends.

Back to square one....

Do you need absolute proof jesus never existed? That's is so easy. Go to the Answers in Genesis web site. This site is the principle source of pseudoscience. They can't begin to explain the existence of jesus so they reference you to

www.tektonics.org...

Now here's the proof. Every single fact about jesus is hearsay, it's all made up. The most significant source of creation/jesus explanations and they don't have and can't reference a single empirical fact!!

NOT ONE!

No hair, no sandals, no writing, no painting, no cloth, no blood, no wood, no sign, no nails, no DNA, nothing!

They don't know when he was born
They don't know when he died
They don't know where he is buried.
There was nothing ever written by him
There are no first hand stories from anyone
Not even the tax collector ever wrote his name becaue he never exisited
All images of him look like daVinci, that's just weird

Their attempt to persuade you to believe the hearsay is proof enough that the biblical jesus never existed.