are we afraid of what the bible tells us?

Originally posted by plague
....that in the bible god was speaking to the hebrews not everyone....

[WARNING: I'm pulling no punches in this post. Read at your own risk. I'd not want to expose someone to logic and indenpendant thinking that isn't ready for it]

Why, if "God" created everyone, wouldn't "God" speak to everyone? What possible reason would "God" have to play favorites? Why do you religious people insist upon assigning human attributes like that to something that obviously isn't human?

Frankly, the "God" of your Bible is portrayed more like an immature 6 year old child than anything else. The "God" of your Bible is vengeful, angry, plays favorites, holds grudges, is jealous of other "gods", tortures less advanced creatures for breaking arbitrary, ill-defined rules (or maybe just for fun like young boys stomping on an ant hill to watch them scurry), and allows, in some cases even demands that the most horrendous acts be done in "His" (gender, another human attribute) name.

If you ask me, and I realize that you didn't, your Bible is a horrible insult to whatever may have actually created the Universe. If such a thing as blasphamy truely exists, religions are the most guilty of it by using "God" as the great scapegoat and justification for their own history of evil. :bnghd:

The simplest solution and the most likely answer is that "God" has spoken to no one and doesn't need to speak to anyone.

But we can't have that can we? That would mean the self-rightous and those that allow themselves to be deluded by others would have to accept responsiblity for their own actions, admit uncertainty, and acknowledge that none of us are advanced enough or equiped to comprehend the actual nature of the Universe and whatever might have caused it's creation.

As a final incendiary note, let me once again say how utterly futile it is to throw out line after line of rote scripture at people who don't put any weight in it at all. All you do is waste space in the thread and prove to the rest of us how brainwashed you really are. Why not try your own thoughts? Why not tell us what you think instead the heavily edited account of what some shroomed out barbarian might have written 1000s of years ago, or does some self-appointed "holy" man in expensive robes and a gaudy building do your thinking for you?

A little harsh, am I? Well, so is constantly telling me that I'm going to be condemed to an eternity of "Hell" for not buying into your control system disguised as myth, and for using the intellect and common sense that "God", if responsible for my creation must have endowed me with [paraphrase of Gallieo]

Do I fear what's in the Bible? Hardly. I fear the evil and harm done every day all around the world in it's name.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Originally posted by plague
....that in the bible god was speaking to the hebrews not everyone....

[WARNING: I'm pulling no punches in this post. Read at your own risk. I'd not want to expose someone to logic and indenpendant thinking that isn't ready for it]

I for one applaud your cander. People should be free to speak their minds. Being politically correct is still lying, and lying is a sin, so all politicians are by their very nature sinners.

Why, if "God" created everyone, wouldn't "God" speak to everyone? What possible reason would "God" have to play favorites? Why do you religious people insist upon assigning human attributes like that to something that obviously isn't human?

Short answer I think would be because we were created in god's image, however we were not created in the image of a mature god.

Frankly, the "God" of your Bible is portrayed more like an immature 6 year old child than anything else. The "God" of your Bible is vengeful, angry, plays favorites, holds grudges, is jealous of other "gods", tortures less advanced creatures for breaking arbitrary, ill-defined rules (or maybe just for fun like young boys stomping on an ant hill to watch them scurry), and allows, in some cases even demands that the most horrendous acts be done in "His" (gender, another human attribute) name.

Good point, and Kudos for that. Here is what I think happened. I think moses asked God what God's name was when he asked God "Who shall i say sent me when I approach the pharoh?" How would everything everywhere everytime be able to answer that question in a word? What we are currently experiencing could be the answer to the question posed. And since God comprehends all, we will have to do so as well in order to comprehend the name of God. Maybe moses should not have asked, perhaps it is not good to question God. So, God's answer is the learning process and the process of understanding all forms of communication. Just a thought.

If you ask me, and I realize that you didn't, your Bible is a horrible insult to whatever may have actually created the Universe. If such a thing as blasphamy truely exists, religions are the most guilty of it by using "God" as the great scapegoat and justification for their own history of evil. :bnghd:

Or, religions are the process of introducing insurmountable fear, and still being able to face it, instead of running from it.

The simplest solution and the most likely answer is that "God" has spoken to no one and doesn't need to speak to anyone.

So little we understand about time and space. Curious. If Earth sends out a message via radio waves, how could the message have been recieved billions of years ago by someone else?

Show me one thing that can be squeezed out of existance. Prove to me that anything can cease to exist if enough pressure is applied to it. Now imagine if any consciousness be it biological or artificial or otherwise where to enter the event horizon of a black hole . . . .. .... . . . .

If I were to shrink you down to the size of an atom and ask you to reach out and grab me an electron, proton, or neutron .. ... you couldn't do it. It is merely condensed energy, condensed light phasing in and out of existance from place to place with no observable path . . . . .

But we can't have that can we? That would mean the self-rightous and those that allow themselves to be deluded by others would have to accept responsiblity for their own actions, admit uncertainty, and acknowledge that none of us are advanced enough or equiped to comprehend the actual nature of the Universe and whatever might have caused it's creation.

Outstanding point! We think we are the epitome, the king of the hill, the top brass of all species here on Earth. Ya, we are #1!!!!!!!!

Find me one other species that kills for fun.
Find me one other species that has committed genocide knowingly.
Find me one other species that continues to want more, no matter how much matter we have.

As a final incendiary note, let me once again say how utterly futile it is to throw out line after line of rote scripture at people who don't put any weight in it at all.

Note that PIRATES have squawking birds on their shoulders as well. Incapable of telling you what it truly means, just blabbing blabbing yada yada yada and I never shut the up and either live it or stop spreading fear and hate. They must have not have enough empathy and compassion to come to the conscious state of mind of those whom they are addressing. They are Pirates hijacking our ship with the fear and hate of their faith, not the love and truth of it.

All you do is waste space in the thread and prove to the rest of us how brainwashed you really are. Why not try your own thoughts? Why not tell us what you think instead ... .. .

Squawk, polly want a cracker. Nice pirate you are wearing there polly.

the heavily edited account of what some shroomed out barbarian might have written 1000s of years ago, or does some self-appointed "holy" man in expensive robes and a gaudy building do your thinking for you?

A little harsh, but polly has that effect. take away polly's crackers.

A little harsh, am I? Well, so is constantly telling me that I'm going to be condemed to an eternity of "Hell" for not buying into your control system disguised as myth, and for using the intellect and common sense that "God", if responsible for my creation must have endowed me with [paraphrase of Gallieo]

When people are free thinkers, it is usually because God has relinquished that thought to them, but even the free thinkers had to face their fears, before they were capable of doing more than repeating the same quotes like a parrot armed with a pirate.

Do I fear what's in the Bible? Hardly. I fear the evil and harm done every day all around the world in it's name.

The bible's purpose should act as a catalyst to facing and addressing one's own fears, not creating more. And, when reading it, it was written for you, not how or what it means to any bird atop the shoulder of a pirate captain that roams the seas with no home and burries all that is important undrground and is to ignorant to make a good enough map back to the treasure.

The book is your book, not what anyone else's opinions that are rooted in fear and hate tell you.

God is not God. How can one quantify the cause to all effects in a 3 letter word?

If God is God then God is more than God can be.

just me 2
This is a really cool article I found on the net:

We've probably all seen these lists numerous times. The problem is that the "300" prophecies are mostly not prophecies at all (let alone Messianic prophecies), and the few that are can not be verified to have actually been fulfilled. Most are merely quotes taken out of context after the "fact" and sold as if they were prophecy. Even worse, some are intentional mistranslations such as Isaiah 7:14 and Psalm 22:17. The only thing incredible about this is the amount of effort people are willing to put into such a game.

Here are some actual Messianic prophecies which Jesus verifiably did not fulfill. To get around this uncomfortable fact, claims are made that he fulfilled them spiritually, or that he's going to fulfill them - hardly persuasive, and certainly not consistent with the Old Testament Messiah.

Ezekiel 37:26-28 - The building of a third temple.
Isaiah 43:5-6 - Regathering the Jews to Israel
Isaiah 2:4 - World peace
Zechariah 14:9 - Universal knowledge of god

just me 2
These are from me (Just me 2) re: a "Personal Savior." There are many more, I just picked a few of them.

Luke 1:47
"...and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,"

Luke 2:11
"Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord."

Acts 5:31
"God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel."

Titus 1:4
"To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior."

That's great. You quoted the New Testament, when the objection was voiced against the Old Testament.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
[WARNING: I'm pulling no punches in this post. Read at your own risk. A little harsh, am I? Well, so is constantly telling me that I'm going to be condemed to an eternity of "Hell" for not buying into your control system disguised as myth, and for using the intellect and common sense that "God", if responsible for my creation must have endowed me with

I am in no way mad or upset so I am just responding. If something sounds sarcastic it's not meant to be.

You are annoyed at constantly being told you could be going to hell, yet you are in a thread that has the word Bible in it's title. So you should know that there are going to be Bible references and opinions from Bible believeing christians posted. I'm personally glad you're involved in this but it seems to me you should be annoyed at yourself for becoming a part of this subject.

And I am not necessarily being harsh but I feel the need to say something. You mention a control system disguised as myth. Being without Christ is actually the control system. Without Christ people are stuck in sin(I am not saying people, saved or unsaved sin 24/7). Without Christ someone is stuck with a dead spirit and in a seperation from God. That limits God's desires for each. With Christ comes freedom. God is always up to something in the lives of believers, to prepare us for eternity. Being without Christ is actually likened to being in prison, I know you won't believe this but it's true. With Christ we can become more than we ever thought or dreamed possible. And in eternity we will be learning and working at things that the word awesome doesn't even come close to describing. God will for all eternity, be revealing who He is, and letting us in on it.

Somebody should start a thread entitled, "Are we excited about what the Bible tells us!!!!"



[edit on 13-12-2005 by dbrandt]

AMBIENT SOUND.........
i believe god speaks to everyone....in the way that they will understand and listen......he sets different people on different paths......he shows many different faces to many different people....i think in the bible hes obviously speaking to the hebrews...hes sending them on a path...a journey to him....now i personally dont see the path of the bible as my path...others do.......what i meant by"scared of what the bible tells us" is....
if you read the bible literally and thought that god was talking to the hebrews....then you read on and figured since this is hebrew literature the messiah god speaks of must be hebrew ( i mean if you read a greek prophesie that said zues would send a messiah would you think he was sending the messiah for everyone or was he referencing the greeks?) ....if this prophesie is about the hebrews then were does this leave everyone else????? this is why i believe people feel the need to interpet the bible.....so that it fits them.........

Well, let me say I'm pleasantly surprised with the responses. I frankly expected much worse.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I am in no way mad or upset so I am just responding. If something sounds sarcastic it's not meant to be.

Considering the deliberate harshness and tone of my posts in this thread, I wouldn't blame you for a little sarcasm on your part and I'll say that after all is said and done, I feel pretty positive that you mean well, no matter how much we might disagree.

You are annoyed at constantly being told you could be going to hell, yet you are in a thread that has the word Bible in it's title. So you should know that there are going to be Bible references and opinions from Bible believeing christians posted. I'm personally glad you're involved in this but it seems to me you should be annoyed at yourself for becoming a part of this subject.

Yes, but I'd rather read people's thoughts about what is written there than what is actually written. If I want to read the Bible itself, well, I live in the southern USA so I surely know where to find one. Baptists will virtually throw them at you here. I'm much more interested in the effects it has on what people think in this day and age, and how those thoughts are put into practice in our present time. The writtings don't really affect me, since I don't believe they are the actual words of "God". The evil and confusion caused by those writings however, is very real, dangerous, and quite institutionalized.

And I am not necessarily being harsh but I feel the need to say something. You mention a control system disguised as myth. Being without Christ is actually the control system. Without Christ people are stuck in sin(I am not saying people, saved or unsaved sin 24/7).

This actually is one of biggest problems I have with christianity, the whole concept of sin and being "saved". My question is, saved from what? It sounds like what is being said is that the natural destiny of the human soul/spirit is to be born, live, die, and then go to Hell. I have a really difficult time imagining a Deity who would purposely set every single one of us up to suffer an eternity in Hell as the default state of things. I find that to be illogical, contrary to the way everything else in the known Universe seems to work, and lastly, just plain mean and cruel. I don't consider a Deity that would set us up for automatic failure to be worthy of worship. It rather sounds more like the Deity that Al Pacino describes at the end of The Devil's Advocate, a game playing horror who likes to watch the suffereing. I find it even more difficult to believe that another human such as a priest, pastor, or supposed massiah is needed or has the power to interceed on my behalf with the supposed Deity to prevent this theoretical suffering.

Are we perfect? Of course not. Neither is the Universe and it is this single quality that allows for the variety and wonder of it. Things that are perfect have no need to change. We all know change is the one thing that can absolutely be said happens all the time everywhere. "God" may have created the Universe for no other reason than being perfect was incredably boring.

Without Christ someone is stuck with a dead spirit and in a seperation from God. That limits God's desires for each.

I don't think spirits die (although they may sicken I suppose], nor do I think we can be seperated from "God" as each of us being part of creation is part of "God". We are part of creation, which to my way of thinking IS "God" experiencing itself through us and everything else. Limits "God's" desires? How can something theoretically limitless be limited by anything that we do or don't do? We may limit our understanding of "God" being subject to confusion and our own lack of comprehension, but to imagine the reverse is true is to once again assign human attributes and limits to something limitless and not human.

Notice that arriving at this logical chain of reasoning does not require the Bible or self-enslavement to another human who might have a better talent for conning people. All it requires is observation of the physical Universe and a little self-examination and self-honesty. Be honest to one's self about both what one knows and what one cannot possibly know and learn to recognize the difference between the two. This may be the truest knowledge we are equiped to understand, for it is knowledge of ourselves that we can find within ourselves, no intermediary required.

With Christ comes freedom.

....but not before 2000 years ago? That is inconsistant and not at all provable. I don't even consider it very likely due to the fact that it places everyone's spiritial welfare on one side or the other of an arbitrary line that could have easily have been 5000 years earlier or later depending on the supposed whim of "God". In that case, someone, and whos to say if its all who came before or all who came after, is getting treated differently than someone else, again for arbitrary reasons. "God" playing favorites again.

We don't see the Universe undergoing radical shifts in it's laws and nature for no reason at all. We see the same patterns consistantly repeated both in direction and in scale. Consistancy is everywhere. Even chaos is consistant in being chaotic. The idea that "God" would suddenly choose to incarnate as a human doesn't fit with any of the rest of it. It doesn't make any sense. What this idea does accomplish though is to bring the concept of "God" down to the level where humans can get there dirty little hands on it, twist it to suit their own ends, package it, and manipulate others with it. It makes "God" mortal and killable, better to assurge our own fear of the unknown Deity, since as I said several post ago we have been addicted to fear by those who use it to control.

God is always up to something in the lives of believers, to prepare us for eternity.

Uh, just the believers? Is "God" playing favorites again?

Being without Christ is actually likened to being in prison, I know you won't believe this but it's true.

Well, you are right about that. I don't believe that. I feel like I am more free than you. You forge your own chains of guilt, or worse, you let other humans who have no more access to "God" than you do forge them for you.

And in eternity we will be learning and working at things that the word awesome doesn't even come close to describing. God will for all eternity, be revealing who He is, and letting us in on it.

This I agree with except I don't believe we have to wait until we die. We are learning and working here and now, by living and experiencing life, not wasting our time obsessing about and existing in abject fear of death.

I still find it very strange that those who profess to be the most prepared for death, being "saved" and all, consistantly seem to be the same ones who seek to avoid it and delay it for as long as possible, using any means available. This supports my assertion that the Bible was written to make people afraid since those who claim to be the most devout followers of it seem to be more afraid than anyone else. I guess fear is an addiction that is difficult to break, especially when you have been convinced that you don't have the power or the right to do so.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
The writtings don't really affect me, since I don't believe they are the actual words of "God".

Well, why should you? God doesn't have a mouth, or a hand that can hold a pen...no publisher or agent would see profit in God as an 'author'--unless there is prospect of an autobiography, of course. Now that would sell some copies, methinks.

The bible, as so-called 'approved' scripture, as well as other non-sanctioned scripture, is only scripture because it is written by 'holy men of God' who 'spoke' (or wrote) 'as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.'

What is 'holy?' Authorized dispenser of self-serving sanctification? Blind self-righteous leader of the blind traveling upon a broad path riddled by potholes?

No. Holy means 'pure' which basically means of a single-minded nature. Not
the same as a 'one track mind' but the opposite of being 'two faced,' 'double-minded,' or speaking with a 'forked tongue.'

Scripture is still being written, every day. It cannot be addressed as such, though, due to the problem most people have with confusing 'information' with 'authority.' If we called all things scripture, that were written and found to contain, say, at least 75% truth (if there were a way to measure), then who would know what to believe? They'd not think to check within themselves while reading, in order to ascertain what 'rang true' and what was false and/or ludicrous.

The evil and confusion caused by those writings however, is very real, dangerous, and quite institutionalized.

Bye bye bath-water, bye bye baby.

The evil and confusion can not be justly applied to the accounts of a written document--only men have such accountability.

Words can be spoken or written--and in either form I, personally, believe that they remain from then on, in some sort of information particle/quark/waveform. While intentions are the motivating energy behind the birth of the words, themselves, the words and the propellant separate at the moment of manifestation.

Once written, or spoken, the words continue to live independently, and so then become neutral up to the point of reception; and then it is the receiver's energy that then propels them into the mind for processing.

Do I fear what's in the Bible? Hardly. I fear the evil and harm done every day all around the world in it's name.

Then why condemn it based upon the fashion in which it used and the characters of those who misuse it?

This supports my assertion that the Bible was written to make people afraid since those who claim to be the most devout followers of it seem to be more afraid than anyone else.

Your assertion is unqualified, since the motivations driving the writers are not necessarily the same as those who actually do use it to make others afraid.
Why blame those who are unknown and shrouded by the centuries when you've got recognizable culprits in the here and now?
I can't say for sure what the motivations were--it doesn't matter. But it does not cause me fear nor incite me to plant and water seeds of fear in others, therefore I have understood the instigators of fear lie outside of it's pages. What I find when reading it is largely, if not completely, flavored by my state of mind and existing spiritual outlook. I have also come to realize that 'those that claim to be the most devout followers of it' yet remain crippled by fears and anxieties are making empty claims...they might believe they are devout followers of either God or their created god and whatever it is they think the bible promotes, but what they devoutly subscribe to is the ideas and theories of other men who brandish bibles more worn on the outside than the inside.

Notice that arriving at this logical chain of reasoning does not require the Bible or self-enslavement to another human who might have a better talent for conning people. All it requires is observation of the physical Universe and a little self-examination and self-honesty. Be honest to one's self about both what one knows and what one cannot possibly know and learn to recognize the difference between the two. This may be the truest knowledge we are equiped to understand, for it is knowledge of ourselves that we can find within ourselves, no intermediary required.

Self-honesty. A unquestionable virtue and essential nutrient for personal evolution. The noble budding branch of personal integrity. Easily qualified for listing on the 'most endangered species' list.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Self-honesty. A unquestionable virtue and essential nutrient for personal evolution. The noble budding branch of personal integrity. Easily qualified for listing on the 'most endangered species' list.

well said.
why don't christians try supporting these values through religion instead of forcing the trust jesus and you'll go to heaven mindset into youngsters?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well said.
why don't christians try supporting these values through religion instead of forcing the trust jesus and you'll go to heaven mindset into youngsters?

1.Because you cannot earn your way to heaven. 2. A person cannot truly change himself/herself by themself. 3. Our view of what is right and what is wrong is flawed

There are probably other reasons but these 3 popped into my head.

So if I want to trust in Jesus and live for Him, how does that make your life worse off?

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well said.
why don't christians try supporting these values through religion instead of forcing the trust jesus and you'll go to heaven mindset into youngsters?

1.Because you cannot earn your way to heaven. 2. A person cannot truly change himself/herself by themself. 3. Our view of what is right and what is wrong is flawed

There are probably other reasons but these 3 popped into my head.

So if I want to trust in Jesus and live for Him, how does that make your life worse off?

so what you are saying is that if i truly love god with all my heart, and am an outstanding person and do alot of good deeds (because i am a good person ..not because i think it will make me look good) for alot of people....but dont buy into the jesus thing ..then i will not reside in heaven or israel??? if i understand correctly. you believe in jesus. which means you believe in the god talked about in the bible....if this is all correct then how can you say you cant work your way into heaven when god clearly lays it out for the hebrews that there only way to heaven is through sacrifice and following of his laws?

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well said.
why don't christians try supporting these values through religion instead of forcing the trust jesus and you'll go to heaven mindset into youngsters?

1.Because you cannot earn your way to heaven. 2. A person cannot truly change himself/herself by themself. 3. Our view of what is right and what is wrong is flawed

There are probably other reasons but these 3 popped into my head.

So if I want to trust in Jesus and live for Him, how does that make your life worse off?

Again, this is the part of Christianity that I have the biggest problem with. Certainly we are flawed, but this is the natural state of anything that exists in an imperfect Universe. I disagree with the first two of your three points above, dbrandt, and believe that the third directly relates to why we are here in the first place.

If we were all perfect, there would be no need for or possiblility of growth. We would be unable to change or learn anything new. Frankly, that would be really boring and unintersting. Go sit by yourself in an empty, unchanging room with nothing happening except you for a long period of time and you'll see.

Like I stated before, I think the simplest and most logical reason a perfect being (a Deity) would even create a Universe is because perfection as we understand the concept would be very boring, uninteresting, and stagnant. The only way it would seem for a perfect, unchanging being to experience growth and anything new would be through observation and the shared experence of imperfect, fallable, and limited beings, who are subject to change, growth and becoming more than they are.

Christians want to escape this. They want to bypass this process. They want perfection, not realizing that our imperfections are what make us unique, interesting, and dynamic. In other words, it seems they want to avoid the hard work, the pain that in some form usually accompanies change and growth. I remarked before about how the most devout seem to be the the most eager to avoid death and the uncertainly that is meant to be part of it. In this way, I think they actually work against the way things are supposed to be. There are no shortcuts since that would defeat the entire purpose.

Of course, I could be wrong. Self-honesty, discussed somewhat in the last several posts, compells me to understand this and admit it. Given our limitations as beings existing in an imperfect Universe, it can be no other way. The fact that hardcore Christians don't admit to this pretty much demonstraits that these people are not excercising self-honesty at all, and as such, can't really have a clue since understanding one's self, is the quickest, surest way of coming closer to understanding everything else, at least as much of it as we are able.

I'm curious. Here is a basic yes or no question:

Do any of you Christians allow for the possiblity that you and those who indoctrinated you may be wrong? Is there any chance you and your Bible might be mistaken?

I await replies.

To clarify:

I said:

Self-honesty. A unquestionable virtue and essential nutrient for personal evolution. The noble budding branch of personal integrity.

Then Madnessinmysoul directly replied to that specific statement with:

well said.
why don't christians try supporting these values through religion instead of forcing the trust jesus and you'll go to heaven mindset into youngsters?

Following that, dbrandt replied to madnessinmysoul’s specific comment with:

1.Because you cannot earn your way to heaven.
2. A person cannot truly change himself/herself by themself.
3. Our view of what is right and what is wrong is flawed

Forget the problem of our slanted view of our false morality for right now—currently our problem seems to be one of flow—specifically continuity of relevant and logical flow in this discussion.

What exactly do you mean, dbrandt? How does your list of 3 things apply to my own statement that I cited at the top of this post? I can’t see how it serves as answer to madnessinmysoul’s post, so maybe if we go a step further backward and see if there is some relevancy there that I am somehow missing completely?

Thanks.

Originally posted by queenannie38
What exactly do you mean, dbrandt? How does your list of 3 things apply to my own statement that I cited at the top of this post? I can’t see how it serves as answer to madnessinmysoul’s post, so maybe if we go a step further backward and see if there is some relevancy there that I am somehow missing completely?

I think perhaps dbrandt's answer wasn't really an answer but the reasons an answer wasn't forthcoming. In simpler terms I think it was: "I don't have a good answer so I'll paraphrase the usual dogma."

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
I think perhaps dbrandt's answer wasn't really an answer but the reasons an answer wasn't forthcoming. In simpler terms I think it was: "I don't have a good answer so I'll paraphrase the usual dogma."

Dang it. I hate that. It sure poops a party, IMO.

Well, I'll be a little snide and say that when one debates using the rules of logic and allowing for the possibility of error in one's own point of view, one never has to resort to that.

It's impossible to learn anything if you think you already know everything.

That's not saying that dbrandt thinks they know everything, but the above principle can usually be applied to religious dogma and blind adherance to it.

wait, i can't change myself? i can't do anything to improve myself? i'm a helpless little speck?

oh wait, yes i can change myself. individuals can change the world. just look at einstein, gandhi, etc.

come on! we aren't little helpless victims!!!

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
That's not saying that dbrandt thinks they know everything, but the above principle can usually be applied to religious dogma and blind adherance to it.

Very true I don't know everything.
But I know more than I did 10 years ago.

Not that it will amke a difference to some but the blind adherence is not applicable to me. Since I know/trust/believe/have put my faith in Jesus that's means that The Holy Spirit dwells in me to lead me/talk to me/have a relationship with me/reveal to me truth, so I do have a leader and am not blindly stumbling around.

Now once again I want to say something because I don't want anyone thinking I'm special and above them and am arrogant. Anyone can accept Christ it's not just for a select few, but there is a time limit on this offer.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i can't do anything to improve myself? i'm a helpless little speck

individuals can change the world. just look at einstein,

I didn't say the first part. What I said was without God it's futile because He can change people for the complete better. God wants us to bea reflection of Him. Without Him only a version of you is all that is gotten reflecting mankind.

Einstein:www.ctinquiry.org...

[edit on 15-12-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

I'm curious. Here is a basic yes or no question:

Do any of you Christians allow for the possiblity that you and those who indoctrinated you may be wrong? Is there any chance you and your Bible might be mistaken?

I await replies.

I'm sorry, but it isn't as simple as yes or no. Consider the following analogy:

A mom and a child were in the kitchen making dinner. The mom says to the child, "Don't touch that hot stove, Johnny, it's very hot."
Now, the child believes his mom, but as soon as she turns her back, little Johnny thinks to himself, "That sure is a pretty color of orange" and he reaches out and touches the hot stove, and gets burned.
He now KNEW that the stove was hot!

The child moved from BELIEF to first hand KNOWLEDGE because he has experienced it for himself.

That is the picture of true Christians who have experienced a relationship with God. WE have experienced His love and forgiveness of our sins and the Holy Spirit brings us into KNOWLEDGE of Truth. We know that the Bible is the Word of God and that Christianity is the Truth through the Holy Spirit.

I will pray about a specific person or a situation and God tells me what to do through His Word, through the advice of another Christian, or Pastor. God is very creative and He uses many different ways to "speak" to us.

“…and His sheep follow Him because they know His voice.” John 10:4

Originally posted by just me 2
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That is the picture of true Christians who have experienced a relationship with God. WE have experienced His love and forgiveness of our sins and the Holy Spirit brings us into KNOWLEDGE of Truth. We know that the Bible is the Word of God and that Christianity is the Truth through the Holy Spirit.

“…and His sheep follow Him because they know His voice.” John 10:4

That is the difference. And it isn't meant out of arrogance because a real christian desires all to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, and then give their life to Him.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by dbrandt]