are we afraid of what the bible tells us?

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
My question about if Christians allow for the possibility of error was more about their confidance of their interpetation of it than if it's factually acurate or not.

What part am I misinterpreting? I realize that I am not perfect, and yes, I can (and do) make mistakes, but if you ask God for guidance, the Holy Sprit will guide you into the Truth of His Word. I always pray before I read my Bible, and ask God to help me to discern what He is saying and to speak to me through His Word.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Once again, we see that instead of their own words, they can only reply with someone elses. Do these people not have any of their own thoughts with which to reply? It doesn't appear so.

Those were my own words, but sometimes I do post excerpts of an article that I've read only because of my own inadequacies. The author of the article may state some relevant facts better than I could. (And I will always give credit to the original author when I do.)

Originally posted by Just2me

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Fortunately, my path takes me far, far away from the place where you stand, and I have to thank whatever Supreme Being might be out there for keeping my eyes open, my mind questioning, and my spirit growing, for keeping me moving on the path.

Satan is not the Supreme Being, God is.


It says a lot that despite the fact that I never mention this Satan guy anywhere in anything I've ever said, despite the fact that in my statement quoted above I'm actually allowing for the possiblility that a Supreme Being might exist, and even throwing some gratitude it's way, it gets me accused of being a Satan worshiper. The fact is, you have no idea at all what I might worship, if I worship anything.



See, you don't allow for the possiblity of error in Christianity, but you, a Christian no doubt, just made a totally false and incorrect assumption based on your belief, which came from your book.

You say I'm a Satan Worshiper. You are completely and utterly wrong.
If your assumption is based on your book, then your book is completely and utterly wrong, at least about this, or your interpetation of it is. :shk:

I didn't say you were a Satan worshipper. Satan is responsible for "keeping your eyes open" to other things that are not the truth.
Genisis 3:4-5 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Just like Satan deceived Eve in the Garden, he is deceiving you into thinking that Christianty if false.

Yes, my views are based upon the Bible, and since I know it to be the Truth, then I am not wrong. If you were to read the Bible and open your mind to It's Truths, and to ask God in faith, to guide you when you read It, you would see what I mean.

[edit on 12/17/2005 by just me 2]

Originally posted by just me 2
I didn't say you were a Satan worshipper. Satan is responsible for "keeping your eyes open" to other things that are not the truth.
Genisis 3:4-5 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Just like Satan deceived Eve in the Garden, he is deceiving you into thinking that Christianty if false.

Ah, I see (pun throughly intended).

So you are saying we were endowed with eyes, but are not to use them. You are saying we were given inquisitive minds, but shouldn't ask questions. We were given ears, but shouldn't listen. We were given minds but shouldn't think. We have free will, but shouldn't excercise it. We are given life, but shouldn't live.



That has to be the most ridiculous thing I think I've ever heard. This type of absurdity is the reason that I turned my back on Christianity as soon as I was old enough to understand how sick it is, and why 1000s of people do the same every day.

I'm not sure what game-playing horror you worship, but something that would set things up the way you think sounds nothing like God to me. Frankly, it sounds sick, perverted, and cruel. What an evil belief you have.

It's ironic. The situation you describe sounds more like something your Satan would do to torture us and keep us in animal ignorance than anything Godly. If that is what you truely believe, that we are meant to be empty, mindless slaves who exist deaf and blind in the world, then being decieved by Satan sounds more like your problem than mine.

Now pass me that slice of apple pie, please!

i'm out of pie, how about a nice cold one?



i saw the same problems with christianity, and i also turned my back on it. if you can show me that ambient is wrong in his statements i'll eat my hat.

wait, i don't own a hat...

i'll buy a hat and then eat it.

If you really want to learn about the bible you don't even have to do the actual research. The research has been done and done again. You can some learn some things about the bible by reading it but you will most likely not be happy with your discoveries. The modern version (KJV) is frought with so many contradictions that there are really too many to seriously discuss. So read what scholars have found out.
Anyone who must take the bible (KJV) as inerrant can wrap themselves around several glaring contradictions. I will list a couple of easy ones just to get you started. Started? you may say. Yes, whether you get started finding things out or you get started denying any information that does not support your preconclusions.started, nevertheless.
Hell is hot. It has a lake of brinstone (liquid sulfur dioxide). It has a temperature of so,mewhere around 442C. (at temps above this sulfur dioxide converts to gas and that doesn't make for much of a lake).

Heaven is very bright, I believe the inerrant verse has heaven as seven times as bright as the moon plus one. Now you probably don't know just how hot the sunny side of the moon is but...it be really HOT. The calculation (done my a person with much better math than I) gives us a heaven at about 560C +/-C.
Conclusion: heaven is hotter than hell, but maybe the bible ain't so inerrant after all.
Noah built an ark with stone tools, out of wood that was bigger than any super tanker we have today (even though it still couldn't hold two pairs of known species (that's if you ignore the second story that has him taking seven pairs of "clean" animals (whatever human fantasy that might be) and two of "unclean". So, lets ignore the story with seven pairs and use the one with just two.
A craft this large could not support itself under its own weight out of our most sophisticated metal alloys let alone take additional mass, made of wood, no less.
Now the rain provided enough water to cover the tallest mountain and there is one that sticks out into space further than Everest by a few meters. This Andian mountain is not as tall as Everest above sea level but because of the equatorial bulge, it actually extends further into space.
There is not enough water in addition to the water on earth ( we already had) in our solar system to cover even a smallish mountain, let alone the really big ones.
This should get you started finding why the bible cannot be considered anything other than a collection of folk lore and proprietary writings, all plagiarized from other tales and yarns also eventually written, after being passed on by word of mouth for centuries, in Mesopotamia and then later doctored and altered by various catholics for whatever purpose pleased then at the time. For now, lets ignore the flood version that has the flood killing not only all life (save Noah and his clan) but the very fish in the ocean as well. Drowning fish can get really complicated.
good hunting.
skep

Originally posted by just me 2
Queenannie,
Please forgive me that I failed to go back and read the verses surrounding your post.

Nothing to forgive, whatsoever. The best way to avoid having to forgive someone, for anything, slight or great, is not to allow it to make a mark in the first place.

Yes, I do understand what Peter was saying,

Great. Then how about a 'pop' essay quiz? What is Peter talking about?

and yes, I have felt like the Words in the Bible were spoken to me personally on many occasions.

Personally--and this is just me--everytime I read I'm reading what was written for my mind to receive. I don't buy into that 'it wasn't written to you, but for you.' Same thing, IMO. If a person picks it up, then it has got their name on it.

Thank you for humbling me and allowing me to see my imperfect nature.

It sure wasn't my intention to humble you, I only wanted to get your attention. Your imperfect nature only reminds me of mine--we're all in the same boat, every soul on earth. Whether anyone sees the irony of it or not--it is a life boat. And we all fit just right.

Reading ??????? Or Learning to read what You want !!!!!!!!

To me Reading is like walking the park, Why do people walk anywhere when they can Ride ??????
Some people will pick up Book with 60,000 pages in it and will set in a corner and not get up till they have read the hole Book, and come away with a new light in life or just the thought of reading Books, No matter whats in it..
It like those people that will spend all day walking in the park and come home and say they feel like a new person. Me, I would maybe ride a 4x4 in the Mountains all day and get muddy and bug bite a hundred times...
We all want to do what we want and whats works for You, someone else does not want anything to do with what You like.
Some books will take you off into new lands and let You feel well, reading it and There are other books that You will through it down after reading the First page..
We all like our feel good books real well rather if there is any truth in what we read or not, we still feel good with it, or we won't..
The thing about the Bible is that it will get into your Monday through Friday life and It has a thing of being truthful a lot of times, But Shoot, I know what I did and I know why it didn't work but I know it will be OK you'll try it again, I have to get it right sometime and it feels good.. The Bible can tell you why that happen if you really want to know, But you don't want to know what the Bible says, I mean what dummy would read that thing and get anything from it, it's a bunch of words that 10,000 people have written and kept on writing on and on, It makes no sense to me, I know better, I don't need that thing or the people that reads it, They are all a bunch of losers and they can not think for there self in life, people who reads (that) Book are just stupid and as dumb as rabbit turds...

The difference in someone that Likes to open the Bible and really gets into it, Those poor people (UNDERSTAND) maybe over 85% of what they read and If You can not get past the first Book without thinking that this is nothing but Pure stupid You'll Never, Never, Never be able to read your life in words and will always be making the same mistakes all the time ,for ever in Your Life....

That Why the Bible is just trash to You.....

Originally posted by jfdarby
That Why the Bible is just trash to You.....

Well, it's one thing to explore the Bible, seeking to find and understand the wisdom (and yes, I do believe there is some) therein. It's quite another to declare the entire thing as absolute truth and to exclude all other possible sources of wisdom and knowledge from one's exploration. Even worse is to then condemn others for not doing the same.

This is why I have such a problem with those who post not their own thoughts, but rote lines of scripture as if the Bible is a weapon to smite those who do not agree with them. I've said many times now, I don't fear what's in the Bible, I fear the evil that the narrow minded and the intolorant use it to justify.

The Bible was written by men, some of whom appear to have been astute observers of the human condition. That it contains wihtin it's pages wisdom and some truth cannot be denied. However, it can also not be denied that the wisdom and truth it contains has been twisted, edited, perverted, and used to enslave and destroy thoughout it's entire history.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Well, it's one thing to explore the Bible, seeking to find and understand the wisdom (and yes, I do believe there is some) therein.

And that is the key...seeking to find or searching to prove...

I've seen heard and read many crazy ideas (from people) that supposedly came from the bible--but I've got my own crazy ideas, why borrow? Besides that, what I've discovered, what's been revealed, in the bible has astounded me. I'm not exaggerating. And so far, I have yet to find clearcut evidence of any crazy idea being of a truly scriptural origin.

The most ironic part of all of it is that one of the big lessons in it consists of a warning against being fooled by religion, expressly the three biggies. 'The three unclean frogs...'

It's quite another to declare the entire thing as absolute truth and to exclude all other possible sources of wisdom and knowledge from one's exploration.

I think many people equate fear-caused narrow-mindedness with 'devout faith.' If one believes God is, then one must believe God created the human mind in all its mysterious and fascinating machinations. As well as our capacity to think, reason, and discern. If one believes in God and places trust therein, then wouldn't it be natural to believe He would, indeed, light one's path and make one's steps sure--thus removing the need for superstitious abstinence from all forms of non-canonized information? To study and learn is not to adopt and practice--even other religions, to the religious person (which I am not), should be safe grounds to investigate from a neutral perspective. Not with a mind toward adopting that which is not ours, but just seeing what is.

How can knowledge be a bad thing? Many people confuse 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' with the 'tree of good and bad' or the 'tree of knowledge.' Neither one of those trees exist. Just the tree of life and the tree of knowing life's happiness and sorrows. Good and evil is happiness and sorrow. And knowledge is experience. We wouldn't be here if we weren't supposed to know.

Even worse is to then condemn others for not doing the same.

Condemnation is never 'right' because it always causes 'evil.' It is also writing one's own poisonous prescription.

This is why I have such a problem with those who post not their own thoughts, but rote lines of scripture as if the Bible is a weapon to smite those who do not agree with them.

Yikes.
'Those who live by the sword must die by the sword.' So if you can't safely wield that sword, put it down! hee hee

I've said many times now, I don't fear what's in the Bible, I fear the evil that the narrow minded and the intolorant use it to justify.

I sense you are merely making a point--because I sense no true fear. But I'm with you--it is a fearful thing, indeed.

The Bible was written by men, some of whom appear to have been astute observers of the human condition. That it contains wihtin it's pages wisdom and some truth cannot be denied. However, it can also not be denied that the wisdom and truth it contains has been twisted, edited, perverted, and used to enslave and destroy thoughout it's entire history.

Amen to that. God and the bible have both been done great disservice by those who so quickly borrow authority from names...

I personally feel, and actually have experienced as truth, that it is not so much who wrote but who reads--and how and why. The most divine book is nothing but a jumbled bunch of dangerous propaganda in the hands of the personal agenda who sees the world through ego-tinted glasses. And the Sunday paper contains gems of wisdom and hidden knowledge for the solitary miner who plans to donate all finds to charity.

Originally posted by skep

Now the rain provided enough water to cover the tallest mountain and there is one that sticks out into space further than Everest by a few meters. This Andian mountain is not as tall as Everest above sea level but because of the equatorial bulge, it actually extends further into space.
There is not enough water in addition to the water on earth ( we already had) in our solar system to cover even a smallish mountain, let alone the really big ones.

www.christiananswers.net...

We make God out to be too small. The God of this universe is an awesome God.

I've answered all the flood questions before by showing the sites where a person can find the answers. As far as drowning fish, ocean life wasn't completely wiped out so that isn't even an issue.

[edit on 18-12-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by skep
Heaven is very bright, I believe the inerrant verse has heaven as seven times as bright as the moon plus one.

Could you please give the reference verse for this?

Heaven is bright, it says the light of the sun and moon is not needed because the light of God is shining. It doesn't say heat it says bright.

Rev. 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

[edit on 18-12-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by dbrandt
We make God out to be too small. The God of this universe is an awesome God.

I've answered all the flood questions before by showing the sites where a person can find the answers. As far as drowning fish, ocean life wasn't completely wiped out so that isn't even an issue.

But you don't realize that most everything you say represents God as being of limited power and perfection.

The misrepresentation is a reflection of the representation and representatives, not what is represented.

You said, elsewhere, that too many people focus on the parts of God that seem mean or cruel, instead of the loving kindness that can be found....

But which way do you point, with what you say? To a loving God who forgives and literally forgets forever, or a God that remembers with grudges and unfair
treatment based outward appearances and verbal declarations?

If you have a hard time selling God to the unbelievers, maybe you should reevaluate your sales pitch. Truly.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt
We make God out to be too small. The God of this universe is an awesome God.

But you don't realize that most everything you say represents God as being of limited power and perfection.

Since you believe that all will be saved no matter what they decide, I can see where you can say that. If I'm not mistaken you also believe that reincarnation is the or one of the ways that makes everyone's salvation possible. But that's not Biblical.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Our faith that saves us is also from God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But not everyone responds to that faith.

7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

11:2
For by it the elders obtained a good report.

11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Since you believe that all will be saved no matter what they decide, I can see where you can say that.

Sure, it makes sense that I would see God as able to do anything if He can do what most men doubt is possible. If God left it up to us, we'd keep eating the fruit from the wrong tree and you are lying to yourself to think you are any better off in the decision making area than Adam and Eve were.

'With God all things are possible.'

If I'm not mistaken you also believe that reincarnation is the or one of the ways that makes everyone's salvation possible. But that's not Biblical.

Actually, reincarnation is far more biblically logical than hell after one go round with less than opportune chances to find God. It's non-christian-biblical, but that's nothing to go by. The Jews believed it, in the times of Jesus. I don't know either way, but I do know that there is far more unbiblical ideology in the christian religion than there is biblical stability. I have looked in the bible for evidence either way about reincarnation--but not out of a desire to support an idea I'm in anyway attached to or to tell anyone else what's what. I don't know. So I guess I'll find out. As will you. I don't judge based on things I can't possibly know. Or by what people and websites say they know. I have the same idea as Einstein:
I want to know what God thinks, the rest is detail.

Either way, I know that if one man is to be saved from death, then it is only by the power of God that it is possible. And I know that if He can save one He can save all. And if He loves one enough, surely He loves us all. He said that is what He would do and I believe He will. If you want to call my statements of 'God is able to do anything He wants and He also keeps His word,'unbiblical', then so be it. It's actually not, because I didn't get this certainty from the bible, anyway--it came by way of direct personal experience which leaves no room for even considering God is less than able to do anything at all.

As far as me personally believing in reincarnation, you've brought that up before, and I attempted to clarify and so I will again. #1 you are making an assumption, based on what, I don't know, from where you got this idea I do not know, maybe it helps you to disregard my words, since you are justified to think that I am misled if you believe I believe in reincarnation. I don't have a belief either way--it truly doesn't matter, as far as I am concerned. And, as I have said more than once, I don't freely disseminate my personal beliefs on this forum in such a way. I identify when I am voicing my opinion but my opinions are not the same as my inner beliefs.

Being born more than once certainly isn't any more unbiblical than not dying at all--which is what the rapture thing is all about, isn't it?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Our faith that saves us is also from God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But not everyone responds to that faith.

Well, then it is something else they are not responding to. God's power is irresistible--but it requires patience and suffering before it is given.

The rest of those verses--why did you post them? What are you saying with those specific references? They are meaningless just strung out like that--all you prove is that you don't have the answers that the holy spirit, that you claim is guiding you, should be supplying you in these types of situations.

No power, no words. Where is the proof?

Originally posted by queenannie38
[Being born more than once certainly isn't any more unbiblical than not dying at all--which is what the rapture thing is all about, isn't it?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That is enough to let us know that reincarnation is not true.

God doesn't want us to be misled, that's why we have the Bible, so we can know things for sure. There is an enemy of mankind that wants us to be led astray, so that we will not be saved and if we are so that we will be ineffective.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
[Being born more than once certainly isn't any more unbiblical than not dying at all--which is what the rapture thing is all about, isn't it?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That is enough to let us know that reincarnation is not true.

God doesn't want us to be misled, that's why we have the Bible, so we can know things for sure. There is an enemy of mankind that wants us to be led astray, so that we will not be saved and if we are so that we will be ineffective.

after jesus died when he came back he looked different.....we have to believe this because his own followers did not reconize him.....which means he died came back in a different body.....which is reincarnation...

another example would be in revelations when everyone is dead and then god judges them and if your in the book of life your reborn to live in jeruselum...that too is a form of reincarnation......



[edit on 18-12-2005 by plague]

interesting point there plague. i never thought of it that way.

Malachi 3:16-18 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

This was 400 something years before the life of Christ and so anyone being designated as a jewel in that crown would have to been reincarnated.

The thing is, what christianity says about reincarnation being wrong is that they assume that it automatically requires a belief in one's self to improve and perfect self, rather than having to put faith in the unseen. But that's not so. There's no way, it often seems that everyone can come to that point in one lifetime, especially when it's a short one and not happy or fortunate.

If we truly have to decide to seek God on our own, then the only way God is both fair and long-suffering, yet not slack in His promise to save all the world, is to consider maybe we do return. If we cannot remember living before, we certainly can't improve upon it. But it seems like some are born with a knowing of God that others never have. They seem to know God from the get-go and know what is right and wrong according to Him. They love others and never seem to belong in the world or like it, even.

Romans 11:1-7 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Now if we only get one chance, how could God reserve those who had never bowed to Baal? You must live to have the opportunity to worship an idol.

And if only one chance--those that God seemingly set up to sin, such as Judas--why would God hate one enough to doom him so--and if so, then God doomed many many people.

But, hey, that's okay as long as christians are saved, I guess. And they won't have to die, they won't have to go through the sheep door and die like the rest of us--they'll get to go in their bodies.

I think I am coming to understand something profound.

Reincarnation is a no-no because it makes God out to be much more merciful and fair than if hell is still in the future and the rapture is coming, too.

Hell doesn't mix with second chances, but God does give chances. Christianity says no, but obviously we've all had more chances than we deserve--killing the one who came to rescue us and yet no one did anything but was was supposed to take place anyway. God made sure we were taken care of before we knew we needed it.
But obviously no one could go anywhere until Christ went first. And after than, we can go when we finally see the light, no pun intended. Until then, we are given another chance.

This verse:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

says God is not willing to lose a single one of us. He is not slack about His promises. So that means since He promised redemption of the world, we will all see Him eventually. We're not doing it our own--each time we come back--if we do, it is because we are a hard nut to crack, not because we're making improvements. Obviously we are not doing any better than the last time. But God will crack all nuts.

Why?
Because He's God and He made you and He loves you.

Even if you are an atheist. Or a buddhist. Or Saddam Hussein.

Originally posted by plague

after jesus died when he came back he looked different.....we have to believe this because his own followers did not reconize him.....which means he died came back in a different body.....which is reincarnation...

another example would be in revelations when everyone is dead and then god judges them and if your in the book of life your reborn to live in jeruselum...that too is a form of reincarnation......

[edit on 18-12-2005 by plague]

No that is being resurrected in both cases.

dbrandt....
if he was resurrected then he would look the same...so why did he not look the same???? ...because he was reincarnated........

Resurrection, Reincarnation

I was wondering why it would matter so much which one it was. Why is the terminology so important? Which is more important? Where you are going, or how you get there? Then I realized something. Resurrection implys that you are special and singled out above others. Reincarnation means that everyone gets the benefit of another chance to do better.

Considering this, it's easy to see why those who put themselves on self-rightous pedestals (as I've mentioned before) would prefer to be singled out for special treatment by God rather than be subject to the same fate as everyone else. There's no ego gratification if you get lumped in with the rest of the sinners, is there? No well deserved punishment for those who dared to think for themselves and disagree with you, huh?

The more these people speak and post, the more obvious it is. If God doesn't practice the same discriminaton and condemnation that you do, then how can you be certain that anything else you believe about God or his creation is true? That would throw serious questions about how accurate your dogma is and the motivations of those who sold it to you, wouldn't it?

It's not really about God at all is it? It's really about you and your irrational fear of being wrong. It's about certainty, and terror you feel at having to face the fact that there may not be any. :shk: