are we afraid of what the bible tells us?

That is the difference. And it isn't meant out of arrogance because a real christian desires all to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, and then give their life to Him.

All I can say to that is "AMEN!"

Originally posted by just me 2

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

I'm curious. Here is a basic yes or no question:

Do any of you Christians allow for the possiblity that you and those who indoctrinated you may be wrong? Is there any chance you and your Bible might be mistaken?

I await replies.

I'm sorry, but it isn't as simple as yes or no. Consider the following analogy:

A mom and a child were in the kitchen making dinner. The mom says to the child, "Don't touch that hot stove, Johnny, it's very hot."
Now, the child believes his mom, but as soon as she turns her back, little Johnny thinks to himself, "That sure is a pretty color of orange" and he reaches out and touches the hot stove, and gets burned.
He now KNEW that the stove was hot!

The child moved from BELIEF to first hand KNOWLEDGE because he has experienced it for himself.

Well, your analogy is flawed but I'll continue with it anyway.

Not only Johnny, but in theory anyone else who touches that stove should get burned as well. A hot stove should burn everyone equally, right? Or should if it's actually hot. However, if I come in and seeing that the stove doesn't appear to be on, touch the stove but don't get burned at all, the next thing I'm going to do is ask to see where Johnny burned himself. When he can't show me a burn or even a red mark, I'm going to question little Johnny's grasp on reality. I'm going to assume that either he is deluded and actually thinks he burned himself even though there is no physical indication that he did, in which case he may need counciling, or I'm going to conclude that he is willfully lying about it for some unknown reason.

And since you tried to avoid what is a very straightforward yes or no question, I'll ask it again...

Yes or No, is there any possibility at all that you may be wrong?

Ha. I still bet you won't answer.

Enjoy that cold soup, Johnny.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Ambient Sound]

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Originally posted by just me 2

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

I'm curious. Here is a basic yes or no question:

Do any of you Christians allow for the possiblity that you and those who indoctrinated you may be wrong? Is there any chance you and your Bible might be mistaken?

I await replies.

I'm sorry, but it isn't as simple as yes or no. Consider the following analogy:

A mom and a child were in the kitchen making dinner. The mom says to the child, "Don't touch that hot stove, Johnny, it's very hot."
Now, the child believes his mom, but as soon as she turns her back, little Johnny thinks to himself, "That sure is a pretty color of orange" and he reaches out and touches the hot stove, and gets burned.
He now KNEW that the stove was hot!

The child moved from BELIEF to first hand KNOWLEDGE because he has experienced it for himself.

Well, your analogy is flawed but I'll continue with it anyway.

Not only Johnny, but in theory anyone else who touches that stove should get burned as well. A hot stove should burn everyone equally, right? Or should if it's actually hot. However, if I come in and seeing that the stove doesn't appear to be on, touch the stove but don't get burned at all, the next thing I'm going to do is ask to see where Johnny burned himself. When he can't show me a burn or even a red mark, I'm going to question little Johnny's grasp on reality. I'm going to assume that either he is deluded and actually thinks he burned himself even though there is no physical indication that he did, in which case he may need counciling, or I'm going to conclude that he is willfully lying about it for some unknown reason.

And since you tried to avoid what is a very straightforward yes or no question, I'll ask it again...

Yes or No, is there any possibility at all that you may be wrong?

Ha. I still bet you won't answer.

Enjoy that cold soup, Johnny.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Ambient Sound]

A. Yes, everyone that touches the hot stove should get burned equally.
B. The analogy assumes that the stove is ON the "high" position; (hence the "orange color")
C. There is NO possibility that the Bible or anything of Christianity is wrong.

Originally posted by just me 2
There is NO possibility that the Bible or anything of Christianity is wrong.

I have to confess, I'm slightly amazed. I talk a lot about delusion and lack of self-honesty, but rarely do I encounter the full scary totality of it. I've read some of your other posts, you see. I was preparing a long logical post about Galileo, the Inquisitions, and the negative qualities of blind self-deceit.

One of my friends was reading it over my shoulder and pointed out to me a truth, which I am aware of, but sometimes forget. She said I was wasting my time, that you can't argue logically with fanatic self-delusion that deep. You can only pity it, and stay as far away from it as possible. Good advice that I'll follow shortly.

First though, I do pity you. I think yours is the brand of hubris and arrogant pride that burns midwives, sends children on crusades, bombs abortion clinics, and places yourself on the same level as the God you profess to worship, which if there is actually such a thing as sin against God, must be one of the biggest.

I believe my words are probably wasted on you. I think you aren't seeking answers, since you already have them all. It sounds like you have nothing to learn, since everything you need is in your book. While the rest of us try to walk our paths and find our answers, you can stand still, deaf and blind to growth, progression, and the joy of the journey of seeking knowledge, a journey I guess you no longer need to make since you think yourself already at your destination.

Fortunately, my path takes me far, far away from the place where you stand, and I have to thank whatever Supreme Being might be out there for keeping my eyes open, my mind questioning, and my spirit growing, for keeping me moving on the path.

While there is apparently nothing you can or need to learn from me, I have certainly learned something from you. I'd thank you, but you have your bible and your God. I'm sure you don't need thanks or pity from a mere seeker of truth like myself who knows better than to claim true knowledge.

Normally in a circumstance like this I'd say that I hope you find what you are looking for, but I suppose that doesn't apply here. So instead let me say I hope that what you have found actually turns out to be what you think it is.

Originally posted by just me 2
C. There is NO possibility that the Bible or anything of Christianity is wrong.

If you really believed that, you would never sin.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Originally posted by just me 2
There is NO possibility that the Bible or anything of Christianity is wrong.

I have to confess, I'm slightly amazed. I talk a lot about delusion and lack of self-honesty, but rarely do I encounter the full scary totality of it. I've read some of your other posts, you see. I was preparing a long logical post about Galileo, the Inquisitions, and the negative qualities of blind self-deceit.

I am not the one who is deceived!

2 Timothy 3:12 "Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived."

Revelation20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
One of my friends was reading it over my shoulder and pointed out to me a truth, which I am aware of, but sometimes forget. She said I was wasting my time, that you can't argue logically with fanatic self-delusion that deep. You can only pity it, and stay as far away from it as possible. Good advice that I'll follow shortly.

Ditto!

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
First though, I do pity you. I think yours is the brand of hubris and arrogant pride that burns midwives, sends children on crusades, bombs abortion clinics, and places yourself on the same level as the God you profess to worship, which if there is actually such a thing as sin against God, must be one of the biggest.

I do not place myself on the same level as God.
He is FAR greater than I would ever hope to be!

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
I believe my words are probably wasted on you. I think you aren't seeking answers, since you already have them all. It sounds like you have nothing to learn, since everything you need is in your book. While the rest of us try to walk our paths and find our answers, you can stand still, deaf and blind to growth, progression, and the joy of the journey of seeking knowledge, a journey I guess you no longer need to make since you think yourself already at your destination.

Yes, you are partly right! Your words are wasted on me, Yes, I do have all the answers I need in life in my Book!

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

All the knowledge I need, God will supply to me. And I am not yet at my Final Destination. That will be when I die and arrive in the Kingdom of Heaven and Jesus will say to me, "Well done my good and faithful servant."

Matthew 25:21
"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!' "

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Fortunately, my path takes me far, far away from the place where you stand, and I have to thank whatever Supreme Being might be out there for keeping my eyes open, my mind questioning, and my spirit growing, for keeping me moving on the path.

Satan is not the Supreme Being, God is.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
While there is apparently nothing you can or need to learn from me, I have certainly learned something from you. I'd thank you, but you have your bible and your God. I'm sure you don't need thanks or pity from a mere seeker of truth like myself who knows better than to claim true knowledge.

You seem to be an intellegent person, and I'm sure there are many things that I could learn from you, but not spiritual things of God. If you were truly seeking the Truth, you would find it.

Proverbs 15:6 "The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning. "

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Normally in a circumstance like this I'd say that I hope you find what you are looking for, but I suppose that doesn't apply here. So instead let me say I hope that what you have found actually turns out to be what you think it is.

I guarantee it!

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by just me 2
C. There is NO possibility that the Bible or anything of Christianity is wrong.

If you really believed that, you would never sin.

Romans 6:1-17
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

Wow, I'm not sure what else I could have written that would prove my points more effectively than the things you are posting.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by just me 2
C. There is NO possibility that the Bible or anything of Christianity is wrong.

If you really believed that, you would never sin.

Christians still have to live in this world and we still have to fight temptations from satan, our flesh flesh and the world system that is hostile to the things of Christ.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Someday we will not be able to sin but that won't happen until Christ returns.

1 Corinthians15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Thank you dbrandt!
That actually was the exact Scripture I was thinking of but I didn't know where it was at the time. Had I gone further into Romans I would have found it!

Originally posted by just me 2

Originally posted by spamandham
If you really believed that, you would never sin.

Romans 6:1-17
Dead to Sin, Alive to God...

All the passages you posted prove is that you do indeed have doubt. But if you have doubt, then you have allowed for the possibility you are wrong. Whether you are willing to admit it or not is another matter.

Spammy~
I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind whatsoever that EVERYTHING in the Bible is true!

What does the bible being true have to do with whether or not it is possible for any one of us to be wrong in our interpretations thereof?

Two totally different concepts.

To just read the bible doesn't automatically guarantee understanding. If it did, there would be an absolute absence of contention regarding what it might be saying. We all know that is far from the reality.

Being 'literate' is not synonymous with being 'learned' or 'stable.'

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Wrestlers are not humble individuals.

Originally posted by queenannie38
What does the bible being true have to do with whether or not it is possible for any one of us to be wrong in our interpretations thereof?

Two totally different concepts.

If it is true, then it is not wrong.
The question posted by “Ambient Sound” was:

“Do any of you Christians allow for the possiblity that you and those who indoctrinated you may be wrong? Is there any chance you and your Bible might be mistaken?”

So then let me rephrase my answer.
NO, there is NO chance that anything in the Bible is mistaken.

To just read the bible doesn't automatically guarantee understanding. If it did, there would be an absolute absence of contention regarding what it might be saying. We all know that is far from the reality.

Being 'literate' is not synonymous with being 'learned' or 'stable.'

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

One of the things I learned recently from my Pastor, is that you must ALWAYS interpret Scripture within it’s context. You can NOT just pull out a verse to make a random point. That is called “proof-texting.” Look at who is speaking, whom is the speaker talking to, what they are saying, why are they saying it, etc.

Originally posted by just me 2
The question posted by “Ambient Sound” was:

“Do any of you Christians allow for the possiblity that you and those who indoctrinated you may be wrong? Is there any chance you and your Bible might be mistaken?”

So then let me rephrase my answer.
NO, there is NO chance that anything in the Bible is mistaken.

That answers one half of the question. Unless...you and your bible are one in the same?

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Originally posted by just me 2
One of the things I learned recently from my Pastor, is that you must ALWAYS interpret Scripture within it’s context. You can NOT just pull out a verse to make a random point. That is called “proof-texting.” Look at who is speaking, whom is the speaker talking to, what they are saying, why are they saying it, etc.

No kidding.
The way I figure, if you're reading the bible, the speaker is talking to you. Otherwise, why read it?
At any rate--did you read the whole chapter, the whole epistle? It is totally pertinent to the point of this thread--or rather, my point regarding what the bible says about the topic of this thread.

2 Peter 1:5-8
... And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ...

1:20-21
...Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost...

1-3 ...But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not...

14-15...Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray...

2:19...While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage...

3:3...Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts...

3:9...The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance...

3:11...Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness...

3:15...And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you...

Do you understand what Peter is saying?

My question about if Christians allow for the possibility of error was more about their confidance of their interpetation of it than if it's factually acurate or not.

Once again, we see that instead of their own words, they can only reply with someone elses. Do these people not have any of their own thoughts with which to reply? It doesn't appear so.

Anyway, I find this amusing in a sad way and also quite telling:

Originally posted by Just2me

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Fortunately, my path takes me far, far away from the place where you stand, and I have to thank whatever Supreme Being might be out there for keeping my eyes open, my mind questioning, and my spirit growing, for keeping me moving on the path.

Satan is not the Supreme Being, God is.

It says a lot that despite the fact that I never mention this Satan guy anywhere in anything I've ever said, despite the fact that in my statement quoted above I'm actually allowing for the possiblility that a Supreme Being might exist, and even throwing some gratitude it's way, it gets me accused of being a Satan worshiper. The fact is, you have no idea at all what I might worship, if I worship anything.

There is some extreme narrow mindedness and intolorance in that. Excuse me, but you do attempt to place yourself on the level of God with this automatic assumption. You presume to judge someone born into this world with the same exact equipment you have to assess reality and truth. Yet with your beliefs you place yourself above me and everyone else in your own mind.

See, you don't allow for the possiblity of error in Christianity, but you, a Christian no doubt, just made a totally false and incorrect assumption based on your belief, which came from your book.

You say I'm a Satan Worshiper. You are completely and utterly wrong.
If your assumption is based on your book, then your book is completely and utterly wrong, at least about this, or your interpetation of it is. :shk:

Ha! Welcome to being human, capable of error, and not in possesion of all the answers, anymore than the rest of us are. How sad for you.

[edit for grammer]

[edit on 17-12-2005 by Ambient Sound]

Originally posted by just me 2
Spammy~
I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind whatsoever that EVERYTHING in the Bible is true!

Then you have faith greater than a mustard seed. Have you tried telling a mountain to move from here to there lately?

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Anyway, I find this amusing in a sad way and also quite telling:

Originally posted by Just2me
Satan is not the Supreme Being, God is.

I wondered where that came from. Hoping I had missed something in my reading of posts--almost better than for it to truly be an unfounded accusation out of left field. Or beyond.

Queenannie,
Please forgive me that I failed to go back and read the verses surrounding your post. Yes, I do understand what Peter was saying, and yes, I have felt like the Words in the Bible were spoken to me personally on many occasions.

Thank you for humbling me and allowing me to see my imperfect nature. Keep in mind that it was after 1:00am at the time that I made my post so I was slightly tired. (The time at the top of the post is incorrect.)

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Anyway, I find this amusing in a sad way and also quite telling:

Originally posted by Just2me
Satan is not the Supreme Being, God is.

I wondered where that came from. Hoping I had missed something in my reading of posts--almost better than for it to truly be an unfounded accusation out of left field. Or beyond.

I can assure you that it wasn't from anything I've ever said anywhere. I personally don't believe in such a being as Satan, and wouldn't worship such a creature if I did.

I put Just2me's unfounded accusation down to the conditioned reflex of automatically condemning anything not understood or that does not agree with their very narrow view of the Universe. [edit added:] Along the same lines, I've come to believe that those who are so convinced of "the rapture" secretly are looking forward to the time when everyone else gets punished for not agreeing with them. [edit end]

I think if the man called Jesus were to return today, people like Just2me would be the very ones who would want to nail him up again because they wouldn't understand him and he probably wouldn't fit himself into their dogmatic, narrow view of things. Of course, I don't truely know that. I certainly won't presume to speak for Jesus, or to know what he would do, although others seem to have no problem usurping his authority by doing exactly that. :shk:

[edit on 17-12-2005 by Ambient Sound]