are we afraid of what the bible tells us?

Originally posted by plague
dbrandt....
if he was resurrected then he would look the same...so why did he not look the same???? ...because he was reincarnated........

Actually from a technical perspective, plague, you are correct, I think. Check out 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Maybe it should be called the 'reincarnation' chapter instead of the 'resurrection' chapter.

If we didn't reincarnate we would not get to leave this world and inherit the kingdom--obviously there is more to it that just which set of DNA coordinates you are wearing--flesh and blood are not as important as the part that is the 'living soul.'

Why is such a prospect so threatening to people? God is not going to snatch away the life He's promised us just because we have healthy speculation and true natural curiosity about what might truly be...

It's not like we are saying something against God--no matter what happens in regard to human life and death, and skins and glorified new duds, etc...God is still the only one who can do any of it. Even if we knew all the secrets we would still be as ineffectual as ever as far as preserving our own lives. So far, we can kill and we can usually support some kind of life that isn't life--through medical gizmos--for quite some time. And we can make and bear babies. But we cannot create life or pretend any kind of authority over it.

So what are doing that is so 'wrong' and 'dangerous' as far as God is concerned? What is so scary, dbrandt, that you feel it is taboo?

Why worry? If God be for us who can be against us?

Unless you're not quite sure about who's on who's side? There are no more sides anymore. Just us. Miserable mortals of myriad flavors.

Originally posted by plague
dbrandt....
if he was resurrected then he would look the same...so why did he not look the same???? ...because he was reincarnated........

The last time the disciples saw Jesus He was badly beaten, worse than in the passion of the Christ.

Isaiah 52:14
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

I heard one person paraphrase this verse as He didn't even look like a human after all the beatings and whippings and cruxifiction.

Also here is part of Psalm 22 but the whole thing should be read.

Psalm 22:14
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

22:15
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

22:16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

22:17
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.


Also read Mark 16:12 He, on purpose, appeared in another form to 2 disciples
Mark16:12
After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.



They also didn't understand that He was going to be resurrected, so when they saw Him their mindset was that Jesus was dead and this person talking to them couldn't be Jesus because Jesus is dead. He also had a glorified body, just like we will receive, a body not subject to pain and suffering and sin.

The Bible tells us He was RESURRECTED(emphasis only) Acts4:33
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Only one of many verses stating resurrection.



Look at 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (KJV)

and

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


So a resurrected body is different but we will know each other.

Whoa... we need to clarify these terms...

resurrection in the Greek is anastasis
and means
a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

it comes from the word anistēmi
which means
to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).

And, of course reincarnate is to supply a soul with a new 'raiment'.

Now, check this out:

Job 33:1-33
1 Wherefore, Job, I pray thee, hear my speeches, and hearken to all my words.
2 Behold, now I have opened my mouth, my tongue hath spoken in my mouth.
3 My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.
4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.
6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.
7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.
8 Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying,
9 I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me.
10 Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
11 He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
19 He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
21 His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
27 He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
29 Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
31 Mark well, O Job, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I will speak.
32 If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee.
33 If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom.

Verse 29 in various translations:

Job 33:29 DRB
29 Behold, all these things God worketh three times within every one.

Job 33:29 GB
29 Lo, all these things will God worke twise or thrise with a man,
Job 33:29 LITV
29 Lo, all these God does two or three times with a man,

Job 33:29 MKJV
29 Lo, all these things God does two or three times with a man,

The Hebrew says the word translated as the underlined in the first example above is basically something that means 'the third stroke of the anvil' or 'third turn of the wheel.'

Now, check out Jeremiah chapters 18 and 19... Isaiah 64:8... Revelation 2:27.

I think, dbrandt, that you have opened a can of worms (for yourself) which is a can of truth for me.

Thanks, BTW--you have just proven something that you say is not in the bible to be there! And in Job, of all places.

If you think it isn't right, then perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to assume and accuse, because if you hadn't kept bringing reincarnation up in the discussion, I'd have never felt compelled to look into it. And I really didn't have to, I ran across that verse out of the blue and it was like a red neon flashing light. Kind of like I was supposed to find it, perhaps?

I didn't care about it, but your obsession with it just dealt a fatal blow to the hell fairy tale you hold so tightly to. You've just been an accessory to attempted killing by the sword of truth on your own religion!

Originally posted by queenannie38
Actually from a technical perspective, plague, you are correct, I think. Check out 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Maybe it should be called the 'reincarnation' chapter instead of the 'resurrection' chapter.


Why is such a prospect so threatening to people?

Do you want to know why it's not reincarnation, because we are told it's resurrection. Reincarnation denotes living many lives over in a body that is subject to death. A resurrected body is not subject to death.

Also why it is not reincarnation is because that is associated with other false religions.

Look at 1 Thessalonians 5:22 It is only 6 words yet it is one of the most powerful verses in the Bible.
1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Have nothing to do with it. The word reincarnate is associated with false religion. We are to abstain from all appearance of evil. For a christian it's resurrect not reincarnate.

You want to go by the Bible until it conflicts with who you want God to be. Then you want to change a word and rename a chapter to suit you. That's not how it goes. We don't change God into who we want Him to be. He changes us into what He wants us to be.

i would say we are more afraid of the meaning of the text because people have debated over the years over the meaning on certain passage, revelations is a perfect example.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Resurrection, Reincarnation

I was wondering why it would matter so much which one it was. Then I realized something. Resurrection implys that you are special and singled out above others. Considering this, it's easy to see why those who put themselves on self-rightous pedestals (as I've mentioned before) would prefer to be singled out for special treatment by God rather than be subject to the same fate as everyone else.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I guess at least once more. Anyone can accept Christ as Savior. Everyone is offered this chance. There are no favorites. I am no more important to God than you are. He offers you the same salvation He offered to me. The exact same opportunity. The only difference, up to this point is, I have placed my faith in what He has plainly said is the only way to eternal life.

Why would I want anyone to go to hell? I would honestly like to hear why I would want that. Why would I get a thrill from knowing that someone is suffering and tormented and seperated from God?

[edit on 19-12-2005 by dbrandt]

DBRANDT.........
acoording to websters dictionary.......reincarnation....

rebirth in a new body or forms of life............rebirth of a soul in a new human body......a fresh embodiment..........


this glorified body would be a reincarnation...
jesus choosing to come to his disciples in a new form is reincarnation......
this is no diferent then krsna reincarnating him self in the gita......the bible shows that there is such thing as reincarnation......maybe you dont reincarnate a whole bunch of times but you do have the chance to riencarnated twice....once in birth as you go from a soul to a living body and then after you die and get your glorified body..........

also did god not choose to take on a human form in jesus....just because its god doesnt make it not reincarnation....

Originally posted by queenannie38


So what are doing that is so 'wrong' and 'dangerous' as far as God is concerned? What is so scary, dbrandt, that you feel it is taboo?

Why worry?

What are you even talking about?

Why be concerned is more like it. Because people are going to spend eternity in hell if they reject Christ. Isn't that enough incentive to you, it is to me. Lies lead to death, the truth leads to life. Why would I be on here trying to informl people of the truth. Because it matters. We each have only one life, despite the reincarnation possibilty you say could be out there, but isn't.

Let me see if I can say this plainly so that it gets across.

I want no one to suffer in hell for all of eternity. You asked me what is so scary, just that, millions are headed for hell and I don't want to see them go there.

Originally posted by queenannie38
I think, dbrandt, that you have opened a can of worms (for yourself) which is a can of truth for me.

I didn't care about it, but your obsession with it just dealt a fatal blow to the hell fairy tale you hold so tightly to.

Not hardly. Do you know what that means, it means salvation is offered to all not a select few. It also means God will keep trying to get a person to receive the salvation He offers. He won't just get the attention of a person once to offer them salvation in Christ. He offers it at more than one opportunity during their one lifetime.

He tried to get pharaoh's attention at least 10 times, but pharaoh kept hardening his heart. If pharaoh had said after the first couple of times, "Tell me about this God" and hen believed , it never would have gone all the way to where the first born of Egypt died, and then pharaoh even lost his life because of his pride.

It doesn't mean multiple lifetimes. No fatal blow and no worms.

[edit on 19-12-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by dbrandt
So a resurrected body is different but we will know each other.

Only if our eyes are open!

Originally posted by dbrandt
Why would I want anyone to go to hell? I would honestly like to hear why I would want that. Why would I get a thrill from knowing that someone is suffering and tormented and seperated from God?

... and I explained what I think in the rest of the very same post you quote above. I'll repeat what I think is the reason:

Those who put themselves on self-rightous pedestals would prefer to be singled out for special treatment by God rather than be subject to the same fate as everyone else. There's no ego gratification if you get lumped in with the rest of the sinners, is there? No well deserved punishment for those who dared to think for themselves and disagree with you, huh?

If God doesn't practice the same discriminaton and condemnation that you do, then how can you be certain that anything else you believe about God or his creation is true? That would throw serious questions about how accurate your dogma is and the motivations of those who sold it to you, wouldn't it?

That is what I think.

What, oh what will you do if God doesn't live up to your preconcieved notions of what God should be?

Originally posted by dbrandt
If pharaoh had said after the first couple of times, "Tell me about this God" and hen believed , it never would have gone all the way to where the first born of Egypt died, and then pharaoh even lost his life because of his pride.

Obviously you didn't read the part that said God hardened Pharoah's heart.
Every time.

and why would god harden his heart? why would god make it harder for any followers of its word?

if this is all true, god is a sadistic son of a you know what.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and why would god harden his heart? why would god make it harder for any followers of its word?

if this is all true, god is a sadistic son of a you know what.

i think and its just my opinion......that god wanted to punish the pharoah for the miss treatment of his "choosen people" or the "people of his covent".....he also instead of saying go to that city and show these people my ways he says hey..go slaughter them and break every statue of there gods ........the hebrew god in the bible is one pissed off diety.......

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

... and I explained what I think in the rest of the very same post you quote above. I'll repeat what I think is the reason:

No, you repeated the same thing, that I am on a power trip and I get a kick out of thinking that there are people "below" me. Which I have already addressed as false.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Obviously you didn't read the part that said God hardened Pharoah's heart.
Every time.

God is in charge of life and death. He could have ended pharaoh's life at any moment. He didn't, He knew pharaoh's intent and He knew the future, and He let pharoah get in His face and go to the extreme of what He would do. At one point pharaoh's sorcerer's told pharaoh "this is GOD doing this", but yet pharaoh continued to fight God knowing that his sorcerer's said this is The GOD doing this. It also says in verse 15 that pharaoh hardened his own heart and the same in verse 32.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

8:16
And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

8:17
And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

8:18
And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.

8:19
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Pharaoh was warned before any of the plagues, that this would end up with the death of the firstborn. Now after the first nine plagues you would think pharaoh would want the firstborn to live seeing that one was his son. But he was out to defeat THE ONLY GOD, at any cost.

Part of it was also that God was going to prove to the Hebrews and the Egyptians that He was God. He did to some of the Egyptians, they went with the Hebrews out of Egypt. And God uses one nation to bring judgement on another like someone else said.

This is also a lesson to us today, you can't fight God and win and if you foolishly go to the extreme of yourself it could cost you your life.

Originally posted by plague

i think and its just my opinion......that god wanted to punish the pharoah for the miss treatment of his "choosen people" or the "people of his covent

I agree, God judges nations especially those who mistreat Israel. The U.S. needs to wake up to this fact.

Originally posted by plague

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and why would god harden his heart? why would god make it harder for any followers of its word?

if this is all true, god is a sadistic son of a you know what.

i think and its just my opinion......that god wanted to punish the pharoah for the miss treatment of his "choosen people" or the "people of his covent".....he also instead of saying go to that city and show these people my ways he says hey..go slaughter them and break every statue of there gods ........the hebrew god in the bible is one pissed off diety.......

Now that everyone has expressed their opinion, let's take a little more objective look at it.

The children of Israel were not yet entered into any covenant with God--only the 3 patriarchs, so far, had made agreements with God.

Exodus 2:23-24
And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

Yet, none of those three men lived at the time, God had promised to these men that what He had agreed to was concerning 'their seed,' too. And since they appealed to their benefactor, so to speak, God had respect unto them--meaning He was true to His word and the children of Israel were heard.

No doubt the future covenant that would be made in Sinai was influential in God's handling of Pharaoh, but I don't think God was mad at Pharoah--it was not anything more than a typical early bronze-age slavery situation. 400 something years had been 'fruitful' and the people had multiplied from 70 to who knows how many. Enough to make Pharoah uneasy, no doubt. What's the solution? Oppression. Unlike the later years of bondage, this wasn't a situation of judgment for idolatry or some other transgression--there were no laws given to either the Egyptians or the Hebrews from God and initially their living in Egypt was a good thing--survival in the years of the famine in the 12th dynasty. So they weren't deserving of slavery, at any rate, and when their yoke got too heavy they sighed.

God had plans but there was some show of force/power required to let everyone know, from the start, that they were dealing with God, not gods. Between the Egyptian religion and the Chaldean/Babylonian ones, alone, there were probably as many dieties all told, as there are world-wide these days. Gods were in no small supply--made to order when needed it seemed.
Although it was idolatry, it wasn't sin for those peoples--they had no reason that they were forbidden their ways, since God had only been known to 3 men up until Moses was called out. But gods are one thing, and GOD is another. God had to do 'signs and wonders' so that all parties were well-informed and prepared.

To show Pharoah His power, through Moses and Aaron, and then purposefully harden his heart seems like entrapment, but it really was just a 'demonstration of power.' For all we know, if God hadn't made Pharoah's heart hard, it might have melted at the first real sign of power Pharoah had likely actually seen come from a 'god.' And if his heart melted, and the Hebrews left Egypt right away, there wouldn't have been much of a foundation laid to establish the 'proof' of God--not to the world so much as the children of Israel. For even though they made mistake after mistake and God said they would go astray as soon as Moses departed--which they did as God knew they would--the displays of power that are written of, happening in those 40 years of Moses must have been pretty impressive, if you honestly consider how much faith the modern day Jews still have in 'ha Shem' ('the name' which is what they call God). Despite their blindness to Christ, as God has caused them to have, they have waited and waited and done all they could to keep the faith that was started some 2,500 years ago! They probably have the most faith that God is actually real than any other group in the world. God does give faith to us, as He wills, but making them blind for a time, He didn't cause their faith to continue, but still they are convinced He is still a real, live, Living God.

That is why God did what He did. Not to be cruel or manipulative but to establish something vital that we don't understand these days, but still affects us. God doesn't do as He wills in order to exercise authority and puff Himself up.

I daresay He doesn't have those kinds of issues. But we do, and that's what we think makes Him operate, too. I guess the world still doesn't realize what the idea of God really means. We still think of 'gods' even though we capitalize, in our mind's eye we mostly see lowercase letter gods.

Originally posted by dbrandt
No, you repeated the same thing, that I am on a power trip and I get a kick out of thinking that there are people "below" me. Which I have already addressed as false.

Then you say it's false. That's fine. I can agree or not as I choose, since I at least do have free will and often choose to excercise it. Maybe what I think about you is wrong. Maybe it isn't. Not being you, I can never know for certain what motivates you, can I? I told you what I believe based on what I observe and read.

I have never claimed true knowledge of anything except what is in my own heart. I don't claim to have true knowledge of God. I don't claim to have true knowledge of you. I have beliefs about both.

This is what it all comes down to in the end, understanding the difference between belief and knowledge. I don't believe (not know!) you make any distinction between the two, and I think that is the quickest way to self-deception. Once you learn to deceive yourself, it then becomes easy to deceive others with or without realizing it.

Originally posted by dbrandt
At one point pharaoh's sorcerer's told pharaoh "this is GOD doing this", but yet pharaoh continued to fight God knowing that his sorcerer's said this is The GOD doing this.

An Egyptian magician saying 'this is the finger of God' is not the sentiment that you believe it to be. They did not know God, God had only spoken to 4 men since the flood--to say God wasn't to say GOD, as you put it. A little education in the nations that Israel lived amongst is something that wouldn't hurt your understanding. You are not Egyptian and you do not live in the bronze age. So you are not understanding that these Egyptians had no concept of God as we do right now. They knew sorcery and idols and magic and how to mummify the dead for a grand send off. A 'Living God' was not an idea that the people had back then.

It also says in verse 15 that pharaoh hardened his own heart and the same in verse 32.

Go back to Exodus 4:21:
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Just as the LORD said, not as Pharoah decided.

Pharaoh was warned before any of the plagues, that this would end up with the death of the firstborn.

Where do you find that?

Now after the first nine plagues you would think pharaoh would want the firstborn to live seeing that one was his son. But he was out to defeat THE ONLY GOD, at any cost.

What bible are you reading?!?

Part of it was also that God was going to prove to the Hebrews and the Egyptians that He was God.

I already pointed that out.

He did to some of the Egyptians, they went with the Hebrews out of Egypt. And God uses one nation to bring judgement on another like someone else said.

Where did you read that?

This is also a lesson to us today, you can't fight God and win and if you foolishly go to the extreme of yourself it could cost you your life.

Especially if God hardens your heart ahead of time. What is your point, here? Besides the fact that you have no ears for anyone else's words, and obviously think you know already all there is to know, but you seem to be reading out of another bible that has a whole different story.
Pharoah didn't have a choice, he wasn't after some grudge-match with a God he didn't even understand--any person who was free to choose would not have put up a fight, I don't think. Pharoah or not, these were some bad events.

When Pharoah and his army drowned in the sea, it was a short time later that
they Hyskos (who were actually the Amakelites) invaded Egypt and took over the throne with no battle whatsoever. They were terrible kings, it seems, and Egypt finally regained the throne several generations later, but this was an unbelievable event and nothing like that had ever happened. Any Pharoah held the belief that the destiny of his people was himself--a very serious kingship was the Egyptian one. So I think it is reasonable to consider the actions of Pharoah were not willful rebellion toward a God he didn't know--because he would never have endangered his life for some asiatic slaves at the expense of his kingdom and what he considered his divine role as a future god. When Pharoahs died, the people diefied them. They were gods, in a sense, already. And even a human god has more sense than Pharoah, but since he didn't exercise it we can only surmise that God did not allow him to make up his own mind.