Calling all Christians, Calling all Christians

No need to be rude.

I didn't say you weren't right, I merely said that it is impossible to 'know' whether you are right.

I feel it is important not to confuse knowledge with belief. Knowledge is unattainable, belief is based on evidence and is attainable. Problems in religion only ever come about when people hold on to beliefs as if they were knowledge, but this phenomenon is not reserved to the 'bible' bashing Christians, plenty of Atheists are also guilty.

Hmmmm.
You can categorically prove that you are real. interesting.
Care to show / demonstrate your proof?
Remember, You have to prove beyond any doubt
Go ahead do it.

(also, you may want to double check your spelling before you try to demonstrate your superior inteligence. )

Ok if thats the case then nothing exists, not me, not you, not god and not religion Nada. So how anyone can say anything with certainty is impossible.

G

The only thing I hold true of God is the God within me.
The Torah seems true I am not sure how many edits the new testament has gone through anyway any time I seek within self I could answer any question. Maybe I am just gifted but I doubt that...So on with your point?

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by japike
You want somebody to prove it right? Why don't you prove it wrong?

Truth is in self/Truth is in God/God is in Self you can find truth if you look within if you do not look than...

Eh no I dont want to prove or disprove anything. Just a yes or no answer is all thats required. There is a point to this!


G

[edit on 4-11-2005 by japike]

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Hmmmm.
You can categorically prove that you are real. interesting.
Care to show / demonstrate your proof?
Remember, You have to prove beyond any doubt
Go ahead do it.

(also, you may want to double check your spelling before you try to demonstrate your superior inteligence. )

Well who are you talking to? A machine with super advanced AI?

Check your own spelling, there's two l's in intelligence LOL

G

shihulud, I actually liked your question.

There is just no fooling logic as you know it.

There will come a time when you will put down that "logical mind" and "let go" if you are truly seeking the truth. This is the beginning steps of "faith". With faith you will have and find hope and peace.

Know Jesus, Know Peace. No Jesus, No Peace.

"Are you saying I should forget logic?" No way! It is your God given right to use logic, but faith transcends logic. (yes, read that again.)

Faith is greater than logic; and if you want to think of something that is really going to bake your noodle Charity is greater than both.

If you have any Doubt that is nothing more than lack of Faith.

For your logical mind: Coldness is nothing more than lack of Heat.

Originally posted by shihulud
Can you honestly say that you know that what the Bible states about God and Jesus to be the truth?

YES!

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
No need to be rude.

I didn't say you weren't right, I merely said that it is impossible to 'know' whether you are right.

I feel it is important not to confuse knowledge with belief. Knowledge is unattainable, belief is based on evidence and is attainable. Problems in religion only ever come about when people hold on to beliefs as if they were knowledge, but this phenomenon is not reserved to the 'bible' bashing Christians, plenty of Atheists are also guilty.

Didn't mean to be rude!
I know it is impossible to know for certain the truth but some people seem to think the possibility is there, I just like sticking my oar in.
You missed out predisposition which goes alongside knowledge and belief.


G

shihulud,
Sorry, you attempted to use the argument that no Christian can 100% know that the teachings of the Bible / Jesus / and God could not be true.
The argument presented by you was a blatant attempt to belittle others.
Do not be surprised when they turn the rules of your argument against you.
That is a basic tactic in any debate, which is why I advised you to think your argument out throughly before you set your bait. If not, you will (as this thread has demonstrated) be caught in the trap that you have set.
You asked for those who believed in the truth of the Bible, then acused them of lying about it because by logic, there is no way to know one way or the other. Posters responded, then when you attempted to ridicule them.... they turned the tables on you and asked you to prove them wrong. You presented the "fact" that your hands exist but failed to present any kind of proof to substantiate that your hand indeed does exist. If we are to take your claims that your hand exist because you tell us that it does, then you can not demean those who believe in the Bible because they have a book that was written by a number of people throughout the centuries, that tells them that God / Jesus etc are true.

Check your own spelling, there's two l's in intelligence LOL

I am not the one that is attempting to belittle others nor am I the one that is trying to show their superiority. Since you are the one, then you need to hold yourself to a higher standard.


[edit on 4-11-2005 by kenshiro2012]

If you bring up an debate on what is real, and what isn't, use actual evidence, and not the whole "i can see it so it must be real" thing. All you can be sure of is that you exist, however I can't be sure that you exist. I can be sure that I exist, but can you? I'm glad that this once solely philisophical debate can have solid scientific fact entered in as evidence.

As for the Christians, it's called the plecebo effect. If it works for them, then it works for them. WE don't see it like that so it doesn't work for us. I start to see a problem when they view others as less than human, or deserving of eternal damnation in the burning fires of hell. It was that point of view that caused so much destruction throughout history.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
shihulud,
Sorry, you attempted to use the argument that no Christian can 100% know that the teachings of the Bible / Jesus / and God could not be true.
The argument presented by you was a blatant attempt to belittle others.
Do not be surprised when they turn the rules of your argument against you.
That is a basic tactic in any debate, which is why I advised you to think your argument out throughly before you set your bait. If not, you will (as this thread has demonstrated) be caught in the trap that you have set.
You asked for those who believed in the truth of the Bible, then acused them of lying about it because by logic, there is no way to know one way or the other. Posters responded, then when you attempted to ridicule them.... they turned the tables on you and asked you to prove them wrong. You presented the "fact" that your hands exist but failed to present any kind of proof to substantiate that your hand indeed does exist. If we are to take your claims that your hand exist because you tell us that it does, then you can not demean those who believe in the Bible because they have a book that was written by a number of people throughout the centuries, that tells them that God / Jesus etc are true.

A hand is a physical object, God and religion are not. I have a book with orcs and dragons in it but no-one thinks "The Hobbit" or " The Lord of the Rings" actually happened. Or do they?
Ask me to prove whether ghosts exist - I cant
Ask me to prove whether God exists - I cant
Ask me to prove that water is made up of Hydrogen and Oxygen well thats a different matter, pass an electric current through it and collect the gas bubbles and do the tests for hydrogen and oxygen.

Can you prove God(s) exist(s), ghosts exist, demons exist, ufo's exist etc?

G

If you check Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, you would see that the observation of an elementary particle changes its properties. So, when one looks at something, it changes at it's basest level.

shihulud,
Let's take a look at your post and go piece by piece.

A hand is a physical object

It is? And what evidence can you provide to everyone that a hand, much less than your hand which you stated earlier you could do. Instead you have presented a statement to assert your belief that a hand is a physical object. You have not even attempted to provide the proof that you promised that your hand exists.

God and religion are not

I will let you on a secret.... shhhhh... you are correct! But then again no one here has said that God and religion were physical objects. Although, again you have provided a statment of your belief. No proof.

I have a book with orcs and dragons in it but no-one thinks "The Hobbit" or " The Lord of the Rings" actually happened. Or do they?

Am I suppose to take that on faith? You have a book that contains Orcs and Dragons! WOW! I have never seen or heard of a book that big before!. Oops, wait a second.... that was just a statement that you made. You have failed to provide supporting evidence that your hand exists. Heck, for all we know, you are sitting in front of your keyboard pecking the keys with your bill!

Ask me to prove whether ghosts exist - I cant

I do not remember anyone asking you to. There are a lot of scientists out there that are trying to prove the existence of ghosts. There are also a number of scientists aout there that are trying to prove that they don't exists. Both sides provide more substance to their arguments than what you have.

Ask me to prove whether God exists - I cant

No, again no one has asked this of you although you have been asked to prove that God does not exist. Once again you have put forth your beleif as proof. You have not provided any evidence to support your belief.

Ask me to prove that water is made up of Hydrogen and Oxygen well thats a different matter, pass an electric current through it and collect the gas bubbles and do the tests for hydrogen and oxygen.

Ok..... so...... where is the proof? I also can create gases and give them names such as oxygen or hydrogen. they come from the same source but does that prove anything? No. Again you have not provided any proof other than your assertion of your belief.

Can you prove God(s) exist(s), ghosts exist, demons exist, ufo's exist etc?

Well, yes I can! I can prove anything using the same substantial argument that you have provided to support your claims. I say that that all exist.... so gues what they do!

Note, I am not attacking you nor am I trying to be mean. I am actually trying to teach you something here. I hope that you are listening and that you are open to learning.

Originally posted by shihulud
1) If you say yes then your lying because you really dont know if the bible is true or not, you believe it to be true. Isnt lying a sin???

In your opinion, because you don't know our minds. You and I \know 2+2=4, right? What about for large values of 2? That statement right there was also an oxymoron, because you stated what you know is in our minds. How could you know what is in someone else's mind? Are you...lying?

And about lying. The actual commandment talks about bearing false witness. Even if your partial subjective concept of reality turns out to be the one truth (ironic in itself), I don't. To put this concept into a more secular manner, bearing false witness is considered perjury by the law in the US. Perjury is lying under oath. Let's say during a trial, someone is asked what someone looked like who was running away at night, and they said the person had black hair. After the trial, the defendant is proven guilty of the crime, and was also the one who was running. However, the defendant had brown hair. Is the witness arrested for perjury because they said the person had black hair? No, because that person really believed the person had black hair. They knew it, and were confident saying so in court, under oath.

So no, even if you are right and we don't know that the Bible is true, we think we do know, so we are not lying.

2) If you say no then you are denying God which is also a sin.

Not exactly. Belief in Christ is different than belief in the infallibility of the Bible. You can believe the Bible has been changed, yet still believe in the message behind it, and believe Christ is Lord and Savior. So, once again, not a sin.

No special reason for this question, just shows how [Edit] up religions can be.

So obviously there was a special reason for this question: to show how "" religions can be. The irony comes in when you said you didn't want to prove or disprove anything. Anything except that religion is [naughty] up? How is that ironic? You had this planned, when called on it before your punch line, you lied to us, then you called us all liars. That's irony, my friend

So then people respond in kind. you don't know, I don't know, we don't know. They used the same argument you did. You had just backed yourself into a corner, and tried to mock your way out of it:

HA HA HA HA LOL. Here we go with this subjective, objective suns not real speil again. SO I am not real, I am not writing this and you lot are a figment of my non real imagination?
This is exciting I've never been not real before!

Get a grip!!!

I find it interesting that you are saying Christians are being illogical and wrong, yet when confronted with your own argument, which you felt should be taken seriously, you start to insult the intelligence of the posters. That's not only ironic, that's hypocrisy. You're calling us stupid for using your argument against you...Do you have such a low self-opinion, or do you believe that some rules apply to everyone but you in your mind?

its called "FAITH".....and i really dont care whether or not you believe in the word of the bible or if you believe in God at all, because i have faith in my lord, Jesus Christ.

funny how these threads are always directed at christians or jews. are not muslims living on faith as well? do not atheists have faith that they are right, without being able to prove one way or the other?

maybe if you actually read the bible instead of just perusing it to find the contradictory passages to help prove your point (and you probably didnt even do that, but just used an internet search engine), you might actually find its true meaning and what god is trying to tell us.

Originally posted by snafu7700
maybe if you actually read the bible instead of just perusing it to find the contradictory passages to help prove your point (and you probably didnt even do that, but just used an internet search engine), you might actually find its true meaning and what god is trying to tell us.

I think that if you read the Bible with the eyes of the 21 century, you could find a lot of meaning. If you read the Bible with the eyes of the first century, like many do, then you walk away with nothing but a religion that condemns those who think differently than yourself. Once again, God is not a person. To call god "him" or "her" is diminishing what god is. To give god the faults that man has, like jealousy, envy, vengence, or spite, is to diminish what god is. To say, if you don't think like me you'll burn in hell, is to spit in the face of what god is. Then again, to say god has a face, is diminishing what god is.

To say, if you don't think like me you'll burn in hell, is to spit in the face of what god is.

Nobody said you have to think like anybody else. God's word says it all!

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

That is the word of man using far of God as a means of control. If god is all loving, then why need to threaten us? Shouldn't his love be all we need to follow him? If he is love, then quotes like that in the bible were written by someone trying to induce fear. Which aspect of your deity tries to put far into his followers?

Ok granted it was a dodgy question not fully thought out but it was fun.

Heres another (no hidden agendas this time, genuinely interested)

Why do you feel the need to believe in a god?
What makes you believe in god and the bible when here is so much evidence to bring doubt on the authenticity of some of the story and authors?


P.S on the subject of reality. Reality is a state of mind perceived through one or more of the bodies senses. It just so happens that the vast majority of the worlds population perceive objects and such like in the same manner i.e cars are cars, hands are hands and the sun is in the middle of our solar system. Therefore because of this it is a majority rule even if the world is not as we view it.


G

Originally posted by shihulud
Reality is a state of mind perceived through one or more of the bodies senses.

How do you know what reality is?

It just so happens that the vast majority of the worlds population perceive objects and such like in the same manner i.e cars are cars, hands are hands and the sun is in the middle of our solar system.

How do you know how others perceive the world around them?

Therefore because of this it is a majority rule even if the world is not as we view it.

If you knew how others perceived, and if indeed the majority did so likewise, it would not necessarily constitute reality.

[edit on 7/11/2005 by AkashicWanderer]