Calling all Christians, Calling all Christians

How do you perceive reality?
Do you not see a hand the same as everyone else?
Is your perception of the world radically different from everyone else?
Does a car run on faith or physical properties based on perceived reality?

Please enlighten


G

Although you did not answer either of my questions, I will do my best to answer yours.

Originally posted by shihulud
How do you perceive reality?

I don't even know if I perceive reality.

Do you not see a hand the same as everyone else?

I could only answer this question if I knew how everyone else saw the same hand.

Is your perception of the world radically different from everyone else?

I could only answer this if I knew how others perceived the "world".

Does a car run on faith or physical properties based on perceived reality?

Depends which car you're talking about.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Although you did not answer either of my questions, I will do my best to answer yours.

Originally posted by shihulud
How do you perceive reality?

I don't even know if I perceive reality.

Do you not see a hand the same as everyone else?

I could only answer this question if I knew how everyone else saw the same hand.

Is your perception of the world radically different from everyone else?

I could only answer this if I knew how others perceived the "world".

Does a car run on faith or physical properties based on perceived reality?

Depends which car you're talking about.

What do you perceive if not your reality?
If someone drew a lifelike representation of a hand would you not perceive it to be the same?
Do you not perceive the same things as others when engaged in conversation?
What car runs on faith?

Originally posted by shihulud
What do you perceive if not your reality?

I do perceive my reality.

If someone drew a lifelike representation of a hand would you not perceive it to be the same?

To be the same as what?

Do you not perceive the same things as others when engaged in conversation?

To answer this I would need to know what those I am conversing with are perceiving.

What car runs on faith?

A car in a dream.

[edit on 7/11/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Originally posted by shihulud

What car runs on faith?

The popemobile. It runs on premium faith.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
I didn't say you weren't right, I merely said that it is impossible to 'know' whether you are right.

If it is impossible to know whether you are right, then it is also impossible to know that it's impossible to know you're right.

The phrase is inconsistent. The best you can hope for is, "I can't see how you could know you are right", or "I see no reason to even suspect you might be right". Either of these are more accurate, and less condescending at the same time.

By the way, I do not agree with AW's definition that knowledge is certainty. Knowledge is a position based on observation or definition combined with an assessment of likelihoods. The difference between belief and knowledge is that belief does not require that the position be based on observation/definition, and the word "know" implies a high level of assessment of likelihood.

Knowledge based on definition is certain (meaning it is impossible not to be true), but it is not the only time its appropriate to use the word "know".

You and I can have different knowledge of the same event without contradiction because our observations differ. That can extend to something as fundamental as existence.

I can know god does not exist while at the same time someone else can know that he does. To say otherwise presumes that there is an unbiased universal observer, and you're right back to the concept of god again.

A theist could thus claim I can not know god does not exist and he is consistent with the idea of a universal observer, but I can not consistently claim he can not know god exists because I am implictly invoking a concept of god in the process of making such a claim.

I can however consistently claim that I know god does not exist. It's much too cumbersome to keep saying "i believe based on my observations..." when a perfectly suitable word, "know", already exists for that meaning.

Rather than asking people if they know the Bible is true, you should have asked "why do you believe the Bible is true".

Nice definition Spamandham
I did have some more question on the last page but AkashicWanderer jumped in with more "how do you know whats real " stuff so here's my new questions again.

Heres another (no hidden agendas this time, genuinely interested)

Why do you feel the need to believe in a god?
What makes you believe in god and the bible when here is so much evidence to bring doubt on the authenticity of some of the story and authors?

G

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by shihulud
What do you perceive if not your reality?

I do perceive my reality.

Thats what I asked.

If someone drew a lifelike representation of a hand would you not perceive it to be the same?

To be the same as what?

To be the same as what you perceive to be hand obviously.

Do you not perceive the same things as others when engaged in conversation?

To answer this I would need to know what those I am conversing with are perceiving.

Unless they're dead which is quite hard as your talking to them, everyone would be perceiving something.

What car runs on faith?
A car in a dream.

Yeah so does the wacky racers too, I forgot about them




G

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
I didn't say you weren't right, I merely said that it is impossible to 'know' whether you are right.

If it is impossible to know whether you are right, then it is also impossible to know that it's impossible to know you're right.

The phrase is inconsistent. The best you can hope for is, "I can't see how you could know you are right", or "I see no reason to even suspect you might be right". Either of these are more accurate, and less condescending at the same time.

By the way, I do not agree with AW's definition that knowledge is certainty. Knowledge is a position based on observation or definition combined with an assessment of likelihoods. The difference between belief and knowledge is that belief does not require that the position be based on observation/definition, and the word "know" implies a high level of assessment of likelihood.

Knowledge based on definition is certain (meaning it is impossible not to be true), but it is not the only time its appropriate to use the word "know".

You and I can have different knowledge of the same event without contradiction because our observations differ. That can extend to something as fundamental as existence.

I can know god does not exist while at the same time someone else can know that he does. To say otherwise presumes that there is an unbiased universal observer, and you're right back to the concept of god again.

A theist could thus claim I can not know god does not exist and he is consistent with the idea of a universal observer, but I can not consistently claim he can not know god exists because I am implictly invoking a concept of god in the process of making such a claim.

I can however consistently claim that I know god does not exist. It's much too cumbersome to keep saying "i believe based on my observations..." when a perfectly suitable word, "know", already exists for that meaning.

Rather than asking people if they know the Bible is true, you should have asked "why do you believe the Bible is true".

I don't feel it is your place to tell me what I should or should not be saying.

If it is impossible to know whether you are right, then it is also impossible to know that it's impossible to know you're right.

So what you are saying is that it is impossible to know either way. How is this different to what I was saying (besides the wording)?

I think the problem here is that our usage of the word 'know' is different.

I believe the word 'know' should only be used when one is certain or unable to doubt something.

It is not rationally possible to exclude the possibility that God exists. This is what makes atheism what it is; not knowledge - but belief.

Atheists and believers are separated only by a shared ignorance, the difference is that I as a believer acknowledge that I believe in God, whereas you claim knowledge you could not possibly possess.

We can only know anything through our senses, our reason and our concepts. How can anyone claim unmediated knowledge, when knowledge is, by its very nature, mediation?

If knowledge is; a position based on observation or definition combined with an assessment of likelihoods.

Then what is belief?

I do not feel your definition makes the distinction clear (you may feel it does, but I do not)..

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
I don't feel it is your place to tell me what I should or should not be saying.

Take the advice or leave it, I don't care. You deserve the hostile reactions you've received.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
So what you are saying is that it is impossible to know either way. How is this different to what I was saying (besides the wording)?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that to claim it is impossible to know first requires that you know, which contradicts the claim that it's impossible to know. I'm not claiming it's impossible to know, or that it is possible to know. I'm simply pointing out the contradiction.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
I think the problem here is that our usage of the word 'know' is different.

I believe the word 'know' should only be used when one is certain or unable to doubt something.

If that were the case, its usage would be limited to truisms since those are the only things that can not be doubted. Yet people use it in ordinary language all the time.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
It is not rationally possible to exclude the possibility that God exists.

It is, if the definition of god is inconsistent.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
This is what makes atheism what it is; not knowledge - but belief.

Assuming "god" were defined in a consistent way (which it isn't most of the time), and using your definition for knowledge (which is contrived for the purpose of being excluded from usage in this conversation), then sure.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
If knowledge is; a position based on observation or definition combined with an assessment of likelihoods.

Then what is belief?

Knowledge is belief based on observation/definition. But belief can also be based on desire (faith) or instinct (possibly more). Not all belief is knowledge, but all knowledge is belief.

Do you deny that the words "know" and "knowledge" are used in everyday language to simply mean "strongly believe"? I don't see that it's productive to redefine words for metaphysical discussions. That seems deceptive to me.

From page 2:

Rasobasi420 said:

If god is all loving, then why need to threaten us? Shouldn't his love be all we need to follow him?

God is also just, Holy and sovereign. Deuteronomy 32:4 “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.”
Every person on this planet (except for Christ) has sinned. (Romans 3:23)
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

Think of it this way:
Imagine that you are witnessing a courtroom scene and it has already been proven that the murderer of your mother was standing before the judge. If he was a just judge would he let the murderer go? If he simply let him go, he would be a corrupt judge wouldn’t he?
If he was a just judge, he would have to pass the sentence on him. The fine is $100,000.00 or life in prison.

The Bible says 1 John 3:15 “Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.”

1 Corinthians 6:9 “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Or how about this one: Revelation 21:8
“But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

So because you (and I) have broken God’s laws He (who is a Just God) must pass sentence on us. The fine? $100,000.00 or life in prison. You don’t have that kind of money to pay the fine, so you must spend life in prison.
Now, imagine that someone you don’t even know walks in and pays your fine. Wouldn’t you feel gratitude towards that person?
That is essentially what Jesus Christ did for you on the Cross 2000 years ago.
He walked into God’s courtroom and paid your fine. You are now free to go on the ground that your fine has been paid for in full. The only thing you have to do is to believe in, and trust in Him.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by shihulud
What do you perceive if not your reality?

I do perceive my reality.

Thats what I asked.

You asked if I perceived reality, which to me is different than my reality.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by shihulud
If someone drew a lifelike representation of a hand would you not perceive it to be the same?

To be the same as what?

To be the same as what you perceive to be hand obviously.

I'll reword your question:

If someone drew a lifelike representation of a hand would you not perceive it to be the same as what you perceive to be a hand.

The answer: No.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by shihulud
Do you not perceive the same things as others when engaged in conversation?

To answer this I would need to know what those I am conversing with are perceiving.

Unless they're dead which is quite hard as your talking to them, everyone would be perceiving something.

So?

I never said anything about the lack of perception of people that are alive. What I did say was that I'm not empathic as to the nature of the perception of those who I am conversing with.

shihulud~

Why do you feel the need to believe in a god?

Initially, I went to church as a kid, and was always taught that He was there. But as I grew up, most of my life was not spent living for Him at all. There was absolutely no difference between myself and anyone else in the world. I rarely gave God a second thought. Then one day, I rededicated my life back to Christ, and I started praying and reading the Word all the time and I realized for the first time in my life that He really WAS up there somewhere. The more I prayed and read my Bible, little things that some would consider ‘coincidences’ I realized that it was the Hand of God.
So, as a direct answer to your question, I believe in Him because I have experienced Him and KNOW that He is there. (Yes, I read the entire thread about belief and knowledge; and there is really no way for you to KNOW conclusively, , unless you have experienced Him for yourself. Open your heart and mind to what He wants to tell you. Pray, PRAY, and pray some more!

What makes you believe in god and the bible when here is so much evidence to bring doubt on the authenticity of some of the story and authors?

Satan has blinded the world to the Truth.
Check out this website. www.leaderu.com...

(If the link doesn’t work, then copy and paste it into your browser.)

Originally posted by just me 2
those who practice magic arts

Now why in the world do you think the bible would not want man to practice in the same arts that God practices?

Now, imagine that someone you don’t even know walks in and pays your fine. Wouldn’t you feel gratitude towards that person?
That is essentially what Jesus Christ did for you on the Cross 2000 years ago.
He walked into God’s courtroom and paid your fine. You are now free to go on the ground that your fine has been paid for in full. The only thing you have to do is to believe in, and trust in Him.

I dont want someone to give me a get out of jail free card. I will earn it by learning all I can and experiencing what God/Goddess want me to in order to advance the vibrational state of my soul. Do all that horrible crap (except the spellcraft portion) and get off at the end because I repent? You keep it, I dont want it.

Now excuse me I am about to go practice some magick. For todays magick I think I will do nothing more than hug a tree. I dont think God will shoot me down to hell for that do you?

edit to add the lil monkey, I love using it!





[edit on 8-11-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Now why in the world do you think the bible would not want man to practice in the same arts that God practices?

Because we are not God! We might use it (if it exists) for wrong and immoral purposes.

Why would you (or anyone) want to go to a place of everlasting pain and torture?

Jesus doesn't want you to go there, that's why He sacrificed Himself for you so you wouldn't have to go to such an awful place!

How about this--It's not just BELIEF or "I THINK" the Bible is true.

I KNOW it is.

Some things are black and white in life. I'm against moral relativism.

How about this--It's not just BELIEF or "I THINK" the Bible is true.

I KNOW it is.

Do do I!

Some things are black and white in life.

Don't you mean black, white and red? ;-)

Originally posted by Amethyst
How about this--It's not just BELIEF or "I THINK" the Bible is true.

I KNOW it is.

Was this knowledge of the bible being true gained through direct experience, or indoctrination?

Was this knowledge of the bible being true gained through direct experience, or indoctrination?

For me, it was a combination of both. I have read the entire Bible, and have had direct experiences with God as well.

How about you Amethyzt?

[edit on 11/8/2005 by just me 2]