Calling all Christians, Calling all Christians

Originally posted by just me 2
Jesus doesn't want you to go there, that's why He sacrificed Himself for you so you wouldn't have to go to such an awful place!

He could have simply not sent me there in the first place. 3rd party sacrifice of god to himself makes even less sense than the concept of hell.

He could have simply not sent me there in the first place.

If sinners were not punished for all their wrong doings then He wouldn't be a just God, now would He?

Don't parents punish their children when they do something wrong? Most of the ones I know do, anyways!

Originally posted by just me 2
Don't parents punish their children when they do something wrong? Most of the ones I know do, anyways!

I've never heard of a parent punishing a child for eternity...

Most of the ones I know don't.

Take the advice or leave it, I don't care. You deserve the hostile reactions you've received.

I deserve a hostile reaction for having the audacity to question you? O..K..

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that to claim it is impossible to know first requires that you know, which contradicts the claim that it's impossible to know. I'm not claiming it's impossible to know, or that it is possible to know. I'm simply pointing out the contradiction.

You cannot know God does not exist because it would require absolute knowledge to do so. If I was to make a statement like; "I know there aren't any fleas in Europe" I would have to know that there wasn't one single flea anywhere in Europe, if one flea exists in Europe then my statement is false.

If you know God doesn't exist you should have proof and your proof should be demonstrable - if you do not have a demonstrable proof then you do not 'know.' You could type up pages of pointless definitions, this would not change that fact.

If that were the case, its usage would be limited to truisms since those are the only things that can not be doubted. Yet people use it in ordinary language all the time.

What is so difficult about posting the word 'believe' in place of the word 'know?'

It is, if the definition of god is inconsistent.

And if the definition of God is consistent - what then?

Assuming "god" were defined in a consistent way (which it isn't most of the time), and using your definition for knowledge (which is contrived for the purpose of being excluded from usage in this conversation), then sure.

You're assuming a lot here.

Knowledge is belief based on observation/definition. But belief can also be based on desire (faith) or instinct (possibly more). Not all belief is knowledge, but all knowledge is belief.

Do you deny that the words "know" and "knowledge" are used in everyday language to simply mean "strongly believe"? I don't see that it's productive to redefine words for metaphysical discussions. That seems deceptive to me.

The only thing I can possibly know is that one day I will physically die. Other people use the word in everyday language, I don't. I prefer to use the word believe as it is more accurate, why claim knowledge you don't have? In any case, this is not an everyday discussion, not something I'd chat to my barber about. It is also a topic in which, if you want to be taken seriously - it is important to say what you mean and mean what you say.

If I claimed to know that God did exist, you would in all probability claim I was a blind, illogical sheep, and you would be right. But you are claiming that you know God doesn't exist, an equally ludicrous claim which somehow you feel justified making - and I seem deceptive to you :shk:?!?

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
I deserve a hostile reaction for having the audacity to question you? O..K..

No, you deserve the hostile reactions you recieved from other posters for being antagonistic.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
You cannot know God does not exist because it would require absolute knowledge to do so.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
What is so difficult about posting the word 'believe' in place of the word 'know?'

There's no difficulty, but I see no reason for all English speaking people to change the consensus on what "know" means for you.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
And if the definition of God is consistent - what then?

Then his existence is possible. It seems pointless to discuss the existence of something that has not yet been defined though.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
You're assuming a lot here.

I think you're being obstinate. If we can't entertain hypotheticals, then further discussion is pointless.

Originally posted by just me 2
If sinners were not punished for all their wrong doings then He wouldn't be a just God, now would He?

3rd party sacrifice is not justice. Infinite torture for finite crimes is also not justice. Punishment is intended for one of two purposes; reform, or deterence. Unverifiable infinite torture accomplishes neither of those and is thus simply sadistic revenge, not punishment.

Originally posted by just me 2
Don't parents punish their children when they do something wrong? Most of the ones I know do, anyways!

Good parents will correct thier children, however, they will not torture them for eternity, nor will they kill themselves as a sacrifice to themselves and let their children off the hook of their insane proclamations as a result.

The god you worship is sadistic and insane, and you must drag yourself down to his level.

Originally posted by spamandham3rd party sacrifice is not justice. Infinite torture for finite crimes is also not justice. Punishment is intended for one of two purposes; reform, or deterence. Unverifiable infinite torture accomplishes neither of those and is thus simply sadistic revenge, not punishment.

Hello spamandham; I would agree with you if that where true. The problem is what you are saying is the doctrine of man; the Bible clearly shows that there is no eternal suffering or torture. The wicked at the final day of Judgment are DESTROYED. You are eternally separated from the creator. you see not, speak not, hear not; you simply CEASE to EXIST.

Originally posted by spamandhamGood parents will correct thier children, however, they will not torture them for eternity, nor will they kill themselves as a sacrifice to themselves and let their children off the hook of their insane proclamations as a result.

The god you worship is sadistic and insane, and you must drag yourself down to his level.

People who come to know reason have their whole life to come to know God, but when they reject God they reject his love. You can not make or force someone to Love you that would be sadistic and insane. God destroys the wicked to END THEIR SUFFERING.

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
the Bible clearly shows that there is no eternal suffering or torture.

If it were clear, there would be no debate on the matter, but your interpretation is valid.

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
The wicked at the final day of Judgment are DESTROYED. You are eternally separated from the creator. you see not, speak not, hear not; you simply CEASE to EXIST.

No problem then.

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
People who come to know reason have their whole life to come to know God, but when they reject God they reject his love.

Belief in god is obtained through faith, not reason. Reason opposes faith. Those who do not use faith do not have knowledge of god and can thus not make a decision to reject god. Since faith is not derived by reason, you must have faith in faith before you can have faith in god.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
People who come to know reason have their whole life to come to know God, but when they reject God they reject his love.

Belief in god is obtained through faith, not reason. Reason opposes faith. Those who do not use faith do not have knowledge of god and can thus not make a decision to reject god. Since faith is not derived by reason, you must have faith in faith before you can have faith in god.

I should of stated when someone comes to "age" of understanding. "age of reason" When you where a child you thought like a child, you played as one you knew not of the troubles and struggles. When you grow up you have an understanding of things... Yes the word reason is probably the wrong word to use in my statement. I hope you know now what I meant by "reason".

Punishment is intended for one of two purposes; reform, or deterence.

Finally something we can agree upon! Deterence! God is trying to deter you from sin, and Hell by offering you eternal life through His Son.

Unverifiable infinite torture accomplishes neither of those and is thus simply sadistic revenge, not punishment.

If you believe in the Bible, it would be verifiable. The only reason you think it's unverifiable, is because you don't believe in it.

1 Corinthians 1:18
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Originally posted by just me 2

Unverifiable infinite torture accomplishes neither of those and is thus simply sadistic revenge, not punishment.

If you believe in the Bible, it would be verifiable.

This is a circular argument. If hell is only deemed real by those who believe the Bible is real, then the concept only acts as a deterence to believers.

For those who are not already believers, hell is not a deterent from disbelief. Surely you can see that much.

Originally posted by just me 2
The only reason you think it's unverifiable, is because you don't believe in it.

Exactly. It provides no deterence for those whom it applies to (nonbelievers). I have no fear of hell, because its nothing but a rediculous and purposeless myth. If there really is a god, and there really is a hell, and if god obscures these facts, then he's just a sadistic jerk. Such a being is unworthy of praise or trust even if he exists.

Originally posted by just me 2
1 Corinthians 1:18
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

I have to agree with Paul on this one, it is foolishness.

1 Corinthians 1:25
"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

Originally posted by just me 2
1 Corinthians 1:25
"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

Paul is giving man's wisdom in this verse. Try again.

quote: Originally posted by just me 2
1 Corinthians 1:18
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Then you said:
I have to agree with Paul on this one, it is foolishness.

So, in other words, you admit that you are perishing?

quote: Originally posted by just me 2
1 Corinthians 1:25
"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

Then you said:
Paul is giving man's wisdom in this verse. Try again.

If you were to read the verses in context, you would see that just a few verses before the one I quoted you, is this one:

1 Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."
So, the text tells us that it is Christ's wisdom, not Paul's!

Originally posted by just me 2
So, in other words, you admit that you are perishing?

I admit that is the Christian perspective of my fate. Of course, I call it foolishness just as Paul said I would.

Originally posted by just me 2
So, the text tells us that it is Christ's wisdom, not Paul's!

So if Paul tells us Paul's writing is Christ's wisdom, that makes it true? You're kidding right?

So if Paul tells us Paul's writing is Christ's wisdom, that makes it true? You're kidding right?

No, I'm not kidding! Because it is in the Bible, it IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! One day you will believe, but then it will be too late!

Originally posted by just me 2
No, I'm not kidding! Because it is in the Bible, it IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! One day you will believe, but then it will be too late!

One day you will realize that not all in the bible was true, but by then it will be too late.

This kind of logic will get us nowhere...

Romans 14: 11-12 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

Originally posted by just me 2
Because it is in the Bible, it IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! One day you will believe, but then it will be too late!

The Bible is a collection of mystical and mythological writings. One day you will die, having wasted your entire life committing idolatry toward the Bible, and the lights will not turn back on.

It's your short life to waste I suppose, but it does seem a shame to watch you fritter it away chasing lies, talking to imaginary friends, and generally making jackass of yourself.

What you have in any sense of mysticism is some intuitive knowledge or reaction to the revelation of truth.

I happen to be a little neo-orthodox when it comes to scripture. I believe in the truths inherent i---the Word---as Karl Barth put it is communitcated through the vehicle of scripture. I do not believe in the literal story of the fall of man but I do believe that it is allegory for the truths being communicated.

My 2 sense...

Take it easy