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Islamic Rioting in France

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posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 09:53 AM
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Souljah, you have it the wrong way around. What are the polcie supposed to do? If I hide from the police in a giant blender, is it going to be a terrible surprise if I end up puree?

Policing is a reaction. More crime, more policing. Harder crime, harder policing. there were already problems. Don't lay this at the feet of the gendarmes. I'll admit, not all is fair and equitable, but there comes a point where the youth have to take responsibility. Yeah, you're poor, you live in a slum...do something about it! Don't torch cars. Hell if you're unemployed, just play ball instead. Effing...do something not criminal. Not a far leap.

DE




posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by LA_Maximus
I have no data to back this it up, but it seems to me like most of these rioters are 2nd and 3rd generation sons of immigrants. Their fathers finally made it to France and worked hard, but their sons turned out rotton.

Its called the 'revolt of the second generation', it seems to happen in most immigrant groups, with the native born children of immigrants rejecting their parents ways. For assimilating parents this means reaching out for the homeland culture, for traditional parents this means embracing the assimilating culture.

I don't know if that is whats going on here. Algerian and Morroccan immigrants to france tend to not assimilate, meaning that their children should try to 'act french' or downplay their traditional culture.

This rather seems to be an issue of France just not being able to assimilate immigrants.

Foreign Affairs had an intersting article on this sort of thing, in which the author warned that, because of these sorts of things, that you were going to start having global jihadis recruiting native european muslims and commiting terror acts in europe. This was shortly before the London Bombings, where precisely that occured.
Europe's Angry Muslims

Of course, thats not what's going on in these riots, rather that discontentment is so large and volatile that its breaking out on its own. You can see that there is a tremendous potential for the jihadis here.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Why is the Police Denying that they chased these Young Men?



I think it's because they didn't, the young men were electrocuted after the police came back to their station, and the one who survived said he didn't see the police chasing them but saw others running and the flashing lights, so they ran. Why's there a problem with that?



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 11:06 AM
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Many poeple here cant seem to see the forst for the trees.

It takes more than an accident to start a riot. These protests have been rewing for some time now in France.

Why?

Because the French are disgustinly rascist. Look at the last Presidential election, who came second? A Nazi, a genuine, old fashioned fascist. If i was a Muslim in a country that seemed far to keen on a party that wanted to evict me I would be less than impressed. Upset even.

The next thing to consider is the political representation of Muslims in France. There is not a single Muslim MP despite there being 6 million Muslims. So they have very little say on what actually happens, preventing progress in allowing for more integration.

And another point we have the casual rascism that permeates French society, musilms are not seen as applicable for jobs where they are on view to the public, because French customers want to be served by French people. Perhaps not unreasonable in their country i hear you cry? But what is forgotten is that these Muslims are French, and many see themselves as such. So the French do not wanted to be served by other French people, but by white people.

In short Muslims have no political voice, so no legitimate way to really air their greivances and face day to day racism from arrogant Frenchmen. Its not hard to see why this has happened.

This is not to say that the rioters are totally blame free in all this, many Muslims should have put more effort into joining in with society, and i have no doubt that plenty of underserving scum are fighting for hte sake of it.

This thread seemed to be another example of the recent ATS habit of trying to portray Muslims as crazy fundamentalists who deserve what they get.

It takes two to tango, the French are just as much in the wrong as the rioters here.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Uncle Joe
It takes two to tango, the French are just as much in the wrong as the rioters here.


What about the British, the Swedish and the Danish who all, to some extent, have similar problems with the muslim ghettos and riots?



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
It takes two to tango, the French are just as much in the wrong as the rioters here.


What about the British, the Swedish and the Danish who all, to some extent, have similar problems with the muslim ghettos and riots?


Cant tell you, I saw some overspill of the Birmingham riots where I live, all I know is that there are again two sides to every struggle. Today several Muslim graves were vandalised. It is a Muslim holiday today, someone is trying to start trouble. Who? Why? no idea.

As for the swedes and the Danes i dont know enough about the situations to comment, and had'nt even heard about such riots except on ATS.

And since you seemed to zoom right to the end of my post, am I wrong about the situation in France? Which was the topic of this thread after all.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Uncle Joe
And since you seemed to zoom right to the end of my post, am I wrong about the situation in France? Which was the topic of this thread after all.


I don't care if there are no muslim MPs in France.
France is not a muslim country and it should not have a muslim government.

I also don't care if the muslims there can get hired or not.
They can move to another country to look for work, preferably the country that they, or their parents, came from.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 11:42 AM
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Yorga said:
"Is this the price of years of tolerance and neglect?"

So THAT's it. That damn tolerance is causing trouble again. Brilliant analysis.
How certain are you that the riots are religion-based and not your basic class warfare? Or maybe we should just stop "tolerating" poor people. Yeah, that's it. Those damn poor people have to stop causing trouble.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Uncle Joe,
Stop trying to bring reasonable thinking to this conversation. Don't you know this thread is about race-hatred, xenophobia, and a desire for good old-fashioned fascism? Let's leave understanding out of this. It's lost on those who have bought into the notion that Islam is the new Evil Empire.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Europe's Angry Muslims



Damn, thats some article.

At least many Mexican immigrants coming here to America are Roman Catholic and hard workers. I would bet the French would trade their angry Muslim immigrants for our Mexican immigrants in a hot minute.

Maximu§



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 12:17 PM
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They'd probably have just as much trouble assimilating (ok, maybe not as much). In the US, muslims, arabs, middle easterners, indians, they seem to be able to assimilate much better. Thats probably because the government, at federal and state levels, takes a relatively 'hands off approach'. Middle Eastern and Indian immigrants to the US also seem to be unusual in that they come to the US with money, whereas normally immigrants, like modern mexicans and previously italians and germans, were just the opposite.

I know that not a lot of people like how city governments and local police don't contstantly round up hispanic immigrants, for example, but if that defuses this sort of thing, then its well worth it.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx
Yeah, you're poor, you live in a slum...do something about it! Don't torch cars. Hell if you're unemployed, just play ball instead. Effing...do something not criminal. Not a far leap.

I have few Friends from Senegal and Gambia that live in Italy.

Tell me - how EASY do you think it is for them to GET A JOB in Italy or France?

Why do you think the Unemployment Rate among them is so High?

Because they are Lazy?

They left their Home for a GOOD Reason - the Majority of them comes from African countries, and we all know the Standards down there.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by vuoto
So THAT's it. That damn tolerance is causing trouble again. Brilliant analysis.
How certain are you that the riots are religion-based and not your basic class warfare? Or maybe we should just stop "tolerating" poor people. Yeah, that's it. Those damn poor people have to stop causing trouble.



Got something you want to add to the thread then by all means do so, or do you find it easier to be critical of someone else's post than to think for yourself? I personnally do not care what you think, but if you are going to post at least show you are capable of independent thought and stop trying to be a commedian, you suck at it.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
They left their Home for a GOOD Reason - the Majority of them comes from African countries, and we all know the Standards down there.


And they're a bit better in France and Italy, don't you think? Yet, these kinds of uprising don't happen in the countries they come from because every one of them and possibly their families would be tortured and killed for it. It's interesting that the condemnation falls to France and Italy for not bending over backwards to accomodate immigrants instead of condemning the countries they came from for their practices.

vuoto, is your concept of "logic" those that agree with your opinion?



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 01:57 PM
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I think riots like the French ones are universal among immigrant populations in Europe. The problem is that those immigrant people tend to be Muslim, and so they get the label of being an "Islamic" issue, when its really a universal immigration issue.

All this finger pointing by Americans however means nothing when you see similar riots in America among the racial minorities there. The problem being a disenfrachised cultural minority rather than race / religion. It happenes everwhere, even in Australia.

What is sad is that violence and destruction seem to be their only method of expressing their issues. destroying the society you are stuck in does nothing for helping to gain employment and acceptance in that society.

In France, and all of Europe, many people warned of this in the 60's and 70's and 80's when they imported immigrants from Africa to work in the low paid low skilled jobs that the French nationals didn't want to do.

Now, as predicted, they are lumbered with a sizable minority that have no jobs beause of changing economic fortunes.

What is worrying is what on earth is the answer? If there are no jobs, if they are unskilled and unwilling to integrate into society then what do you do with them?

Historically in Europe when minorities started to threaten the majority (Moors in Spain for example) the answer was to oppress them enough to drive them out via religious oppression, societal oppression, or just plain killing them.

Maybe these actions are mere antecedents and rumblings of a future relgion/ race war?

Maybe instead of pointing fingers and blaming the religion / race/ etc this question should be addressed.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Dissabled women set ablaze in Paris - Skynews



A handicapped woman was doused with petrol and set on fire by youths during another night of rioting in Paris.
The 56-year-old suffered third degree burns to 20% of her body in the attack.

Witnesses said a youth poured petrol over the woman and then threw a Molotov cocktail on to the bus she was travelling on in the suburb of Sevran.

Other passengers were able to flee but she was unable to escape because of her disabilities.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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And only when Problems BLOW-UP in Their Face, People start Seeing them.

From Reuters:



Manuel Valls, mayor of Evry south of the capital, said: "We're afraid that what's happening in Seine Saint Denis will spread. We have to give these people a message of hope."

Sarkozy, who sparked controversy earlier this week by dubbing protesting youth "scum", denounced the rioters but adopted a less strident tone.

"I am well aware that it will take some time to resolve these problems of the suburbs which have been left untouched for 30 years," he said during a visit to the Alpes-Maritime region.

Villepin and Sarkozy, whose bitter political rivalry has overshadowed the government's reaction, teamed up on Thursday to announce that restoring order was their "absolute priority".

Well, by Calling them SCUM sure did not help to Solve things, did it?

Kind of like when Bush said "Bring it On!" to the Iraqi Resistance - Dumb and totally Ignorant.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 02:41 PM
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Doesn't matter what your circumstances or economical plight is, there is no excuse for injuring or killing innocent or in this case helpless people. What may have been civil disobedience for a legitiment gripe is now nothing but mass vandalism and brutal gang violence. Hey but at least it gets the USA out of the top news story for awhile. Think it is time to send in the troops.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Well, by Calling them SCUM sure did not help to Solve things, did it?

Kind of like when Bush said "Bring it On!" to the Iraqi Resistance - Dumb and totally Ignorant.


You know what else is dumb?
Shooting at police and firefighters, setting fire to buildings, schools, hundreds of cars and even a woman on crutches.

That sure wasn't a smart thing to do was it Souljah??

Put the blame on the #ing rioters not the police who are trying to get things under control.

Those criminals are scum!!!



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Sarkozy, who sparked controversy earlier this week by dubbing protesting youth "scum", denounced the rioters but adopted a less strident tone.
(Emphasis added)

You know what? I agree. They're scum. Why would I say such a thing? Because people who would set fire to a car because they don't like their lot in life, people who would set fire to a handicapped woman on a bus because they don't like their lot in life, people who destroy towns because they don’t like their lot in life, are the dregs of society. They're the bottom rung. They're the scum at the bottom of a bathtub that hasn't been washed in years.

He didn't say the people who had that lot in life cast upon them were scum, he called the people who were revolting scum, and in my opinion, he's right.



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