we are never good enough

Originally posted by snafu7700

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
America seems to want to have it both ways. On the one hand they want to be a respected superpower with major global responsibilities, but on the other when their incompetence bites them in the arse they dont want to take the blame.

The fundamental problem the US has is a total lack of credibility. Instead of respecting the power the US weilds the world laughs at its inability to use what it has. The ultimate case of style over substance.

To be seen as 'good enough' America has to fundamentally rethink its global strategies. Unfortunatly what these strategies should be no one seems to know.

and i guess your obvious hero, old joe, did a much better job? maybe he kept the peace, but he did it through more carnage than hitler ever dreamed.

So im not wrong then? Just have a silly name.

lmao! i respect your opinion, but strongly disagree...how's that?

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
America seems to want to have it both ways. On the one hand they want to be a respected superpower with major global responsibilities, but on the other when their incompetence bites them in the arse they dont want to take the blame.

I would not go as far to say “wants”, this was an inherited job from the fruits of appeasement, two World Wars, a post war Europe, post colonial Europe and post war Asia and new threat to Europe and Asia which could not be protected without the US’s aid, military and money.

America was content as an isolationist country until the majority of the world failed.

And to those of you who do not think big-business and families rule your own respective corners of the world stop and take a look in your own backyard and quit chronically looking over the fence into the US’s yard.


.

Originally posted by snafu7700

maybe, as ive said before, the rest of the world should get off their collective rears from time to time and do something about the problems of the world instead of waiting for us to do it and then slamming us for how we do it.

ok, problem being if someone did that, they'd end up as 'rogue state', most likely, western services will offer 'irrefutable proof' (believe or you're a terrorist - no trial, k?) that you have stockpiles of at least 500K tons of yellow cake (imported from Kiribati, Cuba, or even Iceland - super deadly i swear) and that you are like 3 minutes away from building the X bomb (huh? does the letter even matter), of course, you'd magically be blamed for pursuing a missile program too, any fireworks factory will do as evidence.

before the army invades, you'll be showered with cruise missiles and DU ammo fired all over the place (use of armor piercing ammo will be justified by targets wearing winter clothing and ski masks) aka SHOK AND AW.

yo, and since we officially love each other so much now, the world (me included) won't tell you what we're planning, BECAUSE THAT'S NOW CLASSIFIED, K?

[edit on 13-10-2005 by Long Lance]

Way to hold an intelligent conversation Long Lance did your mommy let you out of school today early?

[edit on 10/13/2005 by rstrik]

Poor America, nobody likes you.

snafu7700:

maybe, as ive said before, the rest of the world should get off their collective rears from time to time and do something about the problems of the world instead of waiting for us to do it and then slamming us for how we do it.

Pardon me for suggesting it, but America has harmed more of the world than it has fixed.

America does NOT go around the world helping people. They help people who they can get something from. They will prop up a military dictator for decades, then once they have outlived their usefulness they are branded enemies.

To give you an example:

9/11. Sure, most of the world thinks of 9/11 as 9/11/01. Many many people think of 9/11/73, when the CIA-funded coup in Chile ousted a democratically elected leader (Salvador Allende) and replaced him with a pro-American military dictator (Pinochet).

So, the United States would rather have a man in power who massacres his own citizens, tortures and murders his political opponents, and runs the country with an iron fist BECAUSE IT BENEFITS THEM.

It did not benefit the Chileans one bit (benefitted Dole, the fruit company a lot, as well as the copper industry, which Allende wanted to nationalize).

This is not an isolated incident. See Pol Pot. See Suharto. See Marcos.

Just because you are ignorant of the incredible messes the USA has made of other countries BECAUSE IT BENEFITTED THEM TO, doesn't mean that they never happened.


Fix your own problems before helping the world, we can do fine without you. You are a country of consumers and polluters, not producers. China will own you in a decade.



jako

Originally posted by rstrik
Way to hold an intelligent conversation Long Lance did your mommy let you out of school today early?

[edit on 10/13/2005 by rstrik]

yo, how do you like some of your own medicine?

me

Originally posted by Jakomo

Poor America, nobody likes you.

snafu7700:

maybe, as ive said before, the rest of the world should get off their collective rears from time to time and do something about the problems of the world instead of waiting for us to do it and then slamming us for how we do it.

Pardon me for suggesting it, but America has harmed more of the world than it has fixed.

America does NOT go around the world helping people. They help people who they can get something from. They will prop up a military dictator for decades, then once they have outlived their usefulness they are branded enemies.

To give you an example:

9/11. Sure, most of the world thinks of 9/11 as 9/11/01. Many many people think of 9/11/73, when the CIA-funded coup in Chile ousted a democratically elected leader (Salvador Allende) and replaced him with a pro-American military dictator (Pinochet).

So, the United States would rather have a man in power who massacres his own citizens, tortures and murders his political opponents, and runs the country with an iron fist BECAUSE IT BENEFITS THEM.

It did not benefit the Chileans one bit (benefitted Dole, the fruit company a lot, as well as the copper industry, which Allende wanted to nationalize).

This is not an isolated incident. See Pol Pot. See Suharto. See Marcos.

Just because you are ignorant of the incredible messes the USA has made of other countries BECAUSE IT BENEFITTED THEM TO, doesn't mean that they never happened.


Fix your own problems before helping the world, we can do fine without you. You are a country of consumers and polluters, not producers. China will own you in a decade.



jako

sure, we've made mistakes, but thats all you people seem to care about....forget about the good weve done (and by the way, what country hasnt made mistakes?)

how bout somalia. what exactly did we have to gain in that one?

bosnia? what was our gain there?

Originally posted by sturod84
its our obligation seeing as americas technological supremecy could easliy rule the entire planet with the flip of a button, auroras mach 12 capabilities and super hyperosnic sub orbital bombardment crafts. WE OUR THE WORLD YOU GUYS. now its just a matter of controlling everybody else economys. we have direction, its our democractic back bone to listen to the people.

this is typical american mindset. "rule" by bombing.
i would like to point out that you don't "rule" people by bombing them. in any succesful campaign, the enemy must WANT to be defeated. a "scorched earth" policy is detrimental to winning a war.
when you want to rule people, you entice/coerce/convince them into cooperation with your ideals. you integrate them. not just bomb the hell out of everything. while, in war, the idealists must be targeted. the average person will become a terrorist/guerilla/freedom fighter/idealist if submitted to injustice.
ever seen one of those shows where the hero punches the enemy, and the enemy explodes into a thousand pieces, and then each piece becomes a tiny clone of the original, and now the hero must deal with thousands of enemies, instead of one?
"terrorists" are that enemy. they are created in the crucible of injustice. the more injustice you generate, the more terrorists you create.
war is not a simple matter of whose got the bigger gun(although, clearly, that's a HUGE advantage). war is a matter of who has the greater willpower.
that's why vietnam kicked america's butt(well, that, and the fact that america didn't want to win, they just wanted to keep fighting. war's good for business. invest your son).
so, remember, just keep fighting. doesn't matter who or where. just go kill and die when the bankers tell you to.

At this point, I almost wish something REALLY REALLY BAD would happen to the rest of the world just so we could "screw it up" when we (as always) try to help them.

Is it up to the rest of the world to define what we ( whoever you are in what ever country you live/belong to) do?

We done this in the 1920's - 1930's (the UK that is) and look what it caused ; WW2.
Yeah your right, the majority of the worlds problems are ours, and I myself thank americans for what they, there countrymen past and present have done and are doing for us.

If its our fault shouldnt we fix it?
If so what would you(UK members) say is the best way to "fix" the problem we made?

You know its funny, on one hand they want us to be isolationists and not get involved in others affairs, on the other hand if something goes wrong we are the fist to be looked at to get involved and fix the problem. Sometimes you can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by devilwasp
We done this in the 1920's - 1930's (the UK that is) and look what it caused ; WW2.
Yeah your right, the majority of the worlds problems are ours, and I myself thank americans for what they, there countrymen past and present have done and are doing for us.

Thank you for recognizing common histories; but we are all in 'this' together and current events are based upon our collective histories, our many nations and are certainly not initiated by any one nation, one event or one individual.



.

This thread illustrates just how much the world is a disfunctional family. "We're never good enough for you!" "You need to change before we'll change!" "It's not our fault, we're not the problem, it's you, it's your fault!" "Why do we have to do all the work while you sit on your butt?!"

Will it take the landing of E.T.'s from another planet to act as counselors and make us group hug?

Originally posted by Jakomo

... You are a country of consumers and polluters, not producers. China will own you in a decade.



jako

come on, that's the first time i heard about chinese factories being renowned for their low levels of pollution

the problem is that our perception of trade becomes more and more war like, in fact our perception of anything goes down that route to hell. trade is about mutual benefit, if it isn't it's something else entirely, the Chinese card will not be played the way you think, for several reasons, most important being resource allocation, in short their problems are much like Japan's in the 1930s, on a somewhat larger scale with a greater landmass to compensate.

a few questions for you:

• who do you think built (and is still building) China's industry?
  
• who paid and how - ie. how was the money raised before they sold lots of consumer goods
  
• what's the Chinese central bank currently doing and why?
  

PS: if China 'owned' the USA, would you be glad? i seriously doubt it.

I'm sorry, but I have to be on Shroud's side this time. It's certain people's arrogance that give the rest of us Americans a bad name. I know Bush is our leader, but I have a right not to support his lyin' ass. I have as much right to critizie him as any other person, including some of his peers. I believe that if Bush and his cronies were not ruining this country, we would have better relations with persons in the Middle East. I'm in the same boat with brill, I'm sick and tired of all this bickering about how my country is better than other countries. The sad part is that when any nation, besides the United States, is hit with a natural catastrophe, we are usually the first nation to send out aid. hell, we couldn't even get food and water to 200,000 of our own people after katrina hit because Bush was taking his sweet time by letting people die of thirst and starvation down there, WTF is wrong with that picture? Maybe the fact America is always in everybodys business is because the rest of the world just sits around and lets things happen. Take for instance the U.N. The U.N. according to this document passed in 2002 has made it a priority to stop terrorism and combat states that support it. Give me a F**** break. Just read this.

U.N. Terrorism Declaration

Now tell me again what they are doing to stop terrorism? NOTHING. They have terrorist states on many of the commissions. Now read this article condeming Israel for killing known Terrorist leaders.

From what I've heard and read, We have stopped ONLY 10 major terror attacks worldwide since the attacks on 9-11! That is over half of the attacks that occured were not even considered to be stopped. If this keeps up, I am afraid of what is just over the horizon for America and her allies.

Israel condemned by the UN

Now does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

That's just one example of why the US is hated around the world. We actually do what we think is right instead of following. EVERY time there is a major catastrophy who is sending aid? Every time there a major conflict who is jumping in the middle to mediate between Israel and Palestine? Every time India and Pakistan get pissed at each other who is trying to calm them down? The US thats who. We actually do what we think is right and the majority of the world hates US for it. You seem to forget we didn't attack the terrorists first, they attacked us. The corrupt UN that doesn't back up it's resolutions and doesn't follow it's mandates decides to vote against Iraq and we go in anyway, so what? Does the UN ever do anything right? Is the UN corrupt and bought by the same corporations that you claim runs America? YES.

As for the hatred shown against the U.S., it's all due to the fact that western influences, like McDonalds and ExxonMobil, are infringing on their customs and they don't want it. I say let's just play a nice little game of "Follow The Leader", the U.S. being one of the followers instead of the leader. We need to just sit back and let other nations fight their own damn battles for their sake! The next time India and Pakistan are at each others throats, we should let them go at it to a point and then we should step in, but we should not step in at any time before.you better believe that those very same companies that are ruining America are running the U.N. , i. e. Halliburton, and they are going to make this country disappear into oblivion if we aren't careful.

I'm a Brit and I do get a bit annoyed by the hostility toward the US when whatever's wrong with it...we're clearly just as bad. We're little America ourselves so how anyone can be holier than thou is a mystery to me.

The other funny thing is the way people blame Bush for everything as though he's actually the one who makes all the decisions. He's probably not even allowed to decide what cereal he wants in the morning!

Originally posted by cjf
we are all in 'this' together

Amen to that. I also believe that the people pulling the strings are supranational and use the old 'divide and rule' principle to keep us all looking the other way...and aren't they doing a good job.

How many of us on here actually give the order to fire? How many ATS posters would be spared if TPTB really wanted to 'off' us?

Originally posted by kerrymac
The other funny thing is the way people blame Bush for everything as though he's actually the one who makes all the decisions. He's probably not even allowed to decide what cereal he wants in the morning!

he is the 'face' of 'it'. most people are not aware there is an 'it'. that's why, yeah?

Or could it be that most ppl when they say bush they don't literily mean just the one man...
I know when I say bush unless it's something he is known to have done, I really mean bush, cheney, rumsfeld, bush snr., their wives, their daughters, their dogs, their butler, the skull and bones, the illuminati, infact ANY element that is involved.

I use the name bush because he IS the figurehead, the public face of the ruling elites. No more than an actor who's good at playing the dumb, christian, normal everyday guy with a concience of steel, and a family history stretching back to the times when the ruling elites first starting showing their ugly faces.
So as a figurehead he's bound to catch most of the flack, no?

Bush is more involved than you would like to believe though IMHO, it's his family pulling a lot of the strings.
A lot of the time you'll find what the government puts out to the public is opposite of what is really going on.
They consider the general public as cattle and have no concience as far as we're conserned.

AP&F..Before it's too late.