we are never good enough

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis

Originally posted by C0le
America change? why? we have no effect on the world...

America has no effect on the world? Are you seriously that inept to the rest of the world? That's like saying the moon doesn't affect the ocean.

At the risk of speaking for COle, what he said is called sarcasm.

This kind of ingrained American logic is why America needs to change and i'm sure people who aren't American will understand exactly what i mean.

The bolded, italicized emphasis was added by yours truly.

Don't you just love lib-speak? I see stuff like this all the time: "I'm sure people who aren't American will understand exactly what i mean." No logic, no reasoning, just pure clique-ish elitism.

My all-time favorite are the libs who profess to be "enlightened".

well from every thing ive seen about americans, on the net and in real life, and they way you post on here, a lot of the time you dont say it directly, but it does sound as if your sure you are the absolute bees nees.

really you shouldnt look at your self as the best in the world, and them examples at the start, im sure there has been many more countries than you gone to help somewhere, maybe they did it sucsefuly, or they wernt american so you didnt here about it

and another thing, look at the topic of the post?
you once again assumeing america is the best, every one is rellying on you, maybe they be happy if you just pulled your head in

Originally posted by C0le
Flip side of that coin is the rest of the world who has existed as nations, for hundreds/thousands of years, are jealous that a country who as only existed for a few hundred, is runnning the show.

This is where Americans show that they have NO idea how the rest of the world thinks.
You all seem to think because America wants to control the World, all other countries want to as well.
But in reality Most of the Worlds countries just want to be left alone to do their own thing.

I've lived in the U.S. for 16 years, and in other countries for less time, but America has to be the most competitive place I've ever lived.

You're not happy unless you are number one, the best, the biggest, the loudest, no matter what it takes to get there. Screw the rest of the World as long as YOU are the winner.

Don't you realise that attitude doesn't help you gain friends?

The rest of the World doesn't want to have to compete with you but are forced too, or else...

The only people it benefits are the corporations.

There is more to life than being the biggest badest richest SOB on the block, sorry but there's nothing to be jealous of.

America's perception of the rest of the World is what's wrong, not the other way around!

I find it funny America claims to be spreading democracy, when it's not even a democracy itself.

But having said all that it's not your fault. You are conditioned to think the way you do. But it is your fault if you blindly support it without knowing anything other than the conditioning you are fed.
It seems to me most people don't come to ATS to learn anything, but just to spread their twisted wisdom and show the World how well your government controls your thinking.

"America the great attention whore."

Originally posted by snafu7700
again, there you go with that change thing....trying to put words in my mouth. youre like a broken record, so i'll say it again: i never said we wanted the other countries in the world to change, just to get off their tails and do something instead of blaming us for trying to help. furthermore, i never said anything about getting help in iraq. i said that no matter what we do at this point, it will be wrong to people like you.

and yes, i know that australia is our ally...you sure dont sound like an ally, but your country is.

Well considering the past is the past no one can really help with that, so what about the future?

If you don't see America being one of the main problems with the worlds future then your not looking at it from a global perspective and most of the crap the world is dealing with right now, has America right in the middle with an evil corporate presence controlling a stupid puppet into stupid situations.

Help with what exactly? Fixing your mistakes? The reason i bring up change is because your not asking for things to be better in the world, you asking the rest of the world to do things America's way or else atleast give them a pat on the back for trying regardless of how disasterous their efforts are.

America needs to change to fit in with the rest of the world instead of trying to control it. Doing this will encourage a lot more global support and appreciation for America and it's efforts. Until then, it's all we can do to avoid getting in your path to self-destruction and trying not to be pulled down with you.

Some patriots call that 'anti-America' but it's really not, it's more like a request to stop p-ing in the shower because others are using it to - ie, show some respect if you want some back.

Next time when you get told that's quicksand, don't walk through it - don't walk through it because it's pathetic watching you flap your arms around saying 'remember all the things i did for you!', when you've been acting like a jerk the whole time. Don't give the rest of the world the temptation to not want to help but definetly don't blame the rest of the world for your problems.

The points you bring up in the first post are very basic and biased examples of American involvement anyway. Every one of those situations came with a profit motive, don't kid yourself that they were just for the good of the world - America doing it's bit. Your Afgahnistan paragraph for example is blarringly void of the many things which annoy the rest of the world and cause problems that ripple around the globe, you've only noted the Americanised version of events - far from reality and a global perspective.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis

Originally posted by C0le
America change? why? we have no effect on the world...

America has no effect on the world? Are you seriously that inept to the rest of the world? That's like saying the moon doesn't affect the ocean.

At the risk of speaking for COle, what he said is called sarcasm.

This kind of ingrained American logic is why America needs to change and i'm sure people who aren't American will understand exactly what i mean.

The bolded, italicized emphasis was added by yours truly.

Don't you just love lib-speak? I see stuff like this all the time: "I'm sure people who aren't American will understand exactly what i mean." No logic, no reasoning, just pure clique-ish elitism.

My all-time favorite are the libs who profess to be "enlightened".

Get your hand off it.

You miss the point, the problematic American arrogance is what's killing you as a nation.

Coles statement as sarcasim proves the very arrogance that my post was pointing out to the rest of the world, if he's being sarcastic then he has no idea what the rest of the world thinks of America's attitude. If he was serious, then my questioning if he could possibly be serious explains why i assumed and pointed out to the rest of the world, that he was just being typically arrogant.

Thanks for confirming what i was saying about some of you. You attack first always thinking your right but don't understand the rest of us are shaking our heads feeling ashamed you also represent our species. There's no America is team! There's a bloody cliche for you

P.s. Your arrogance of Global politics shows that i cannot possibly be a 'lib' since being a 'liberal' in Australia is akin to being a Republican in America, our 'liberals' are called 'labor' and no, i didn't vote for them either last election. We also have a "Prime Minister", his name is John Howard. Hopefully i have 'enlightened' you just a little bit on global politics.




[edit on 13-10-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]

[edit on 13-10-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]

Originally posted by snafu7700
and yes, i know that australia is our ally...you sure dont sound like an ally, but your country is.

Define that statement, Snafu. As individual people, if we are not supporters of the current Bush administration we are not America's allies? I have plenty of real life and online American friends, some of the best people I know. I do however dislike extremist rightwing neocon zealots. As a result, that makes me an "America-hater" as simpleton C0le puts it?

I was for the War in Afghanistan, I'm against the war in Iraq. I have plenty of American friends. I think your government are crooks and liars. I sure don't sound like an ally? But my country is? I am my country. And if you think the majority of Australians like the Bush admin, you would be sadly mistaken. We love the Americans who think like us. The rest of the rightwing religious zealots are nothing like the typical Australian, just as the typical American is nothing like them either.

Our country sends 2000 troops to Iraq. A pissant contribution when you look at the big picture, although they are some of the finest and most professionally trained soldiers in the world. In return Australia gets more concessions in the US/Australian Free trade Agreement, because Bush can put them third on the list of the "Coalition of the Willing". This is how it works when you deal with the biggest kid on the block. When they say jump, you say how high. Then they give you a little reward for it. Remember this.

Originally posted by Manincloak
All of the wars specified in the first post should not have been started/involved with USA.

Especially Afghanistan and Iraq, I mean bloody 'ell, 2 of the most useless wars ever.

When USA learns that it should keep it's bit fat ugly butt out of everyone else's face, people will once again like them. Or for the first time like them.

BTW. USA isn't the richest country in the world. The people who live in USA may be the richest, but the country itself isn't by a longshot.

No offence towards USA & it's citizens or anything....

in all of them, except the last two of course, we were asked to go and do something to stop the bloodshed. maybe we should have told the world community to stick it, but we went anyway to try and help.

if youre gonna post, at least do a little research, please.

I'm convinced that topics like this are designed to either:

1) Collect points to show your friends & family how enlightened you are.

2) Bore the reader to death by rehashing the same arguments over and over.

Am I the only one who is tired of this 'my **** is bigger than your ****' soapbox rant in which the U.S is either David or Goliath. There's no conspiracy angle to this discussion. All it does is entice hate and on occassion overstate the obvious. Just my $0.02.

brill

But in reality Most of the Worlds

countries just want to be left alone to do their own thing.

Ok, then the rest of the world who wants to be

left alone need not say anything and draw

attention to themselves.

America has to be the most competitive

place I've ever lived.

Realy?

The rest of the World doesn't want to

have to compete with you but are forced too, or

else...

Elaborate please.

But having said all that it's not your

fault. You are conditioned to think the way you

do. But it is your fault if you blindly support

it without knowing anything other than the

conditioning you are fed.

comments like this make you diff from us cocky,

arrogant, Americans how?

most of the crap the world is dealing with right now, has America right in the middle

Most of the crap America is right in the midle of is a result of the crap half the world left us to clean up.

America needs to change to fit in with the rest of the world

That would kinda make the whole forming of the united states a few hundred years ago pointless.. we dont want to fit in with you..


Oh and to those screaming in this thread about how its not all about america Id get rid of those images and sigs, for a country that doesnt mean much, you seem to be obsessed with us be it good or bad.. You dont see the french president in my avatar because i dislike him do you? You dont see quotes from other countires leaders in my sig do you?

Your kinda giving us #1 Americans, the wrong idea, with all the attention you give us..

[edit on 13-10-2005 by C0le]

Originally posted by cargo
if we are not supporters of the current Bush administration we are not America's allies? I have plenty of real life and online American friends, some of the best people I know. I do however dislike extremist rightwing neocon zealots. As a result, that makes me an "America-hater" as simpleton C0le puts it?

Where did i say this? what does the current/bush administration have to do with america never being good enough? Why the insults?

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis
Get your hand off it.
You miss the point, the problematic American arrogance is what's killing you as a nation.

Get your head out of it. What you perceive as "problematic American arrogance" is nothing more than your own personal envy.

Coles statement as sarcasim proves the very arrogance that my post was pointing out to the rest of the world, if he's being sarcastic then he has no idea what the rest of the world thinks of America's attitude. If he was serious, then my questioning if he could possibly be serious explains why i assumed and pointed out to the rest of the world, that he was just being typically arrogant.

Shroud, you are confusing yourself with double-speak. Relax.

Thanks for confirming what i was saying about some of you. You attack first always thinking your right but don't understand the rest of us are shaking our heads feeling ashamed you also represent our species.

There you go with the them vs us baloney again.

There's no America is team! There's a bloody cliche for you

Didja mean "There's no America in team"?

P.s. Your arrogance of Global politics shows that i cannot possibly be a 'lib' since being a 'liberal' in Australia is akin to being a Republican in America, our 'liberals' are called 'labor' and no, i didn't vote for them either last election. We also have a "Prime Minister", his name is John Howard. Hopefully i have 'enlightened' you just a little bit on global politics.

I did not know that! Thank you for the enlightenment!

Hey, we might be just a wee bit arrogant (not admittting anything, though..) but so what? If we don't have the right to be, then who does? j/k

Don't get so darn serious about everything.

Originally posted by cargo

Originally posted by snafu7700
and yes, i know that australia is our ally...you sure dont sound like an ally, but your country is.

Define that statement, Snafu. As individual people, if we are not supporters of the current Bush administration we are not America's allies? I have plenty of real life and online American friends, some of the best people I know. I do however dislike extremist rightwing neocon zealots. As a result, that makes me an "America-hater" as simpleton C0le puts it?

I was for the War in Afghanistan, I'm against the war in Iraq. I have plenty of American friends. I think your government are crooks and liars. I sure don't sound like an ally? But my country is? I am my country. And if you think the majority of Australians like the Bush admin, you would be sadly mistaken. We love the Americans who think like us. The rest of the rightwing religious zealots are nothing like the typical Australian, just as the typical American is nothing like them either.

Our country sends 2000 troops to Iraq. A pissant contribution when you look at the big picture, although they are some of the finest and most professionally trained soldiers in the world. In return Australia gets more concessions in the US/Australian Free trade Agreement, because Bush can put them third on the list of the "Coalition of the Willing". This is how it works when you deal with the biggest kid on the block. When they say jump, you say how high. Then they give you a little reward for it. Remember this.

um, i dont remember directing that comment at you. but maybe there's a reason you take offense?

neither am i a supporter of the bush administration. i did vote for them, but it was more a vote against the other guy, who couldnt seem to make up his mind about anything. one minute he's for the war, the next he's not. i saw images of somalia in my head when he spoke (one administration starts a humanity effort, the other screws it up by pulling much needed support and gets a bunch of our guys killed). and by the way, the vote cost me bigtime.....bush is anti-union, and is killing my benifits package. but i would rather lose the money than watch the bloodshed get worse thanks to an undecisive president.

i agree with you on the wars.....i am for afganistan, and against iraq (at least the initial reasons for going in...if we leave now, i strongly believe it becomes ten times worse).

and i'm well aware of the way the world works. i dont agree, but thats the way it is at the moment. one hundred years ago it was england in our shoes. before that, france. before that spain...etc. i would love to change things, but there's only so much one person can do.

and incidently, just because other americans are posting on this thread, doesnt mean that i agree....i agree that several of the other posts do border on conceit.

My frustration lead to some pointless thread bashing... it's gone now. (I was bashing C0le, that much should remain)

[edit on 13-10-2005 by The_Modulus]

Originally posted by brill
I'm convinced that topics like this are designed to either:

1) Collect points to show your friends & family how enlightened you are.

2) Bore the reader to death by rehashing the same arguments over and over.

Am I the only one who is tired of this 'my **** is bigger than your ****' soapbox rant in which the U.S is either David or Goliath. There's no conspiracy angle to this discussion. All it does is entice hate and on occassion overstate the obvious. Just my $0.02.

brill

well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as i've told both mods and members alike, i could give a whoopty do about the points. if you check into my history, you will find that i have been in the negative quite a bit because i tend to voice my opinion regardless of the consequences (sometimes, i will admit, a little too zealously).

i am far from enlightened. again, if you check some of the other threads i have posted on, you will find that i ask questions of all parties because i recognize that i dont have all the answers.

and finally, if this thread bores you, then move on...i'd much rather have an opinion than an american bashing with no real opinion (i dont mind the american bashing that actually says something).

This whole thread reminds me of how little things have changed when it comes to national attitudes. nothing new under the sun.

Rudyard Kipling wrote this a hundred years ago about his own country's empire:

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!


England's empire is gone now. Maybe imperialists all feel this way regardless of who they are or what time it is

America seems to want to have it both ways. On the one hand they want to be a respected superpower with major global responsibilities, but on the other when their incompetence bites them in the arse they dont want to take the blame.

The fundamental problem the US has is a total lack of credibility. Instead of respecting the power the US weilds the world laughs at its inability to use what it has. The ultimate case of style over substance.

To be seen as 'good enough' America has to fundamentally rethink its global strategies. Unfortunatly what these strategies should be no one seems to know.

Maybe the fact America is always in everybodys business is because the rest of the world just sits around and lets things happen. Take for instance the U.N. The U.N. according to this document passed in 2002 has made it a priority to stop terrorism and combat states that support it. Give me a F**** break. Just read this.

U.N. Terrorism Declaration

Now tell me again what they are doing to stop terrorism? NOTHING. They have terrorist states on many of the commissions. Now read this article condeming Israel for killing known Terrorist leaders.

Israel condemned by the UN

Now does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

That's just one example of why the US is hated around the world. We actually do what we think is right instead of following. EVERY time there is a major catastrophy who is sending aid? Every time there a major conflict who is jumping in the middle to mediate between Israel and Palestine? Every time India and Pakistan get pissed at each other who is trying to calm them down? The US thats who. We actually do what we think is right and the majority of the world hates US for it. You seem to forget we didn't attack the terrorists first, they attacked us. The corrupt UN that doesn't back up it's resolutions and doesn't follow it's mandates decides to vote against Iraq and we go in anyway, so what? Does the UN ever do anything right? Is the UN corrupt and bought by the same corporations that you claim runs America? YES.

Save me the "We are the World" "peace unity and happiness crap". It's not gonna happen until certain countries decide they want to quit controlling their populations with totalitarian dictatorships and supporting terrorism. Instead of crying about the US and criticising us why don't you help. Instead of the UN and the rest of Europe helping us in Iraq they would rather watch the Iraqi people die horribly daily. Just so all of you can point the finger and say "told you so told you so". If we truely are the horrible devils everybody thinks then where is the angels of Europe coming in to help the Iraqi people? It's pathetic, everybody wants to tell America how bad it is but nobody wants to help the people they claim we are slaughtering with our bombs. Until a country steps up to help Iraq and do what is right for it's people DON"T SAY A WORD.

Is America always right? Hell no. Do we at least allow ourselves to make mistakes instead of doing nothing? Yes.

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
America seems to want to have it both ways. On the one hand they want to be a respected superpower with major global responsibilities, but on the other when their incompetence bites them in the arse they dont want to take the blame.

The fundamental problem the US has is a total lack of credibility. Instead of respecting the power the US weilds the world laughs at its inability to use what it has. The ultimate case of style over substance.

To be seen as 'good enough' America has to fundamentally rethink its global strategies. Unfortunatly what these strategies should be no one seems to know.

and i guess your obvious hero, old joe, did a much better job? maybe he kept the peace, but he did it through more carnage than hitler ever dreamed.

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis
America needs to change to fit in with the rest of the world instead of trying to control it. Doing this will encourage a lot more global support and appreciation for America and it's efforts. Until then, it's all we can do to avoid getting in your path to self-destruction and trying not to be pulled down with you.

Hmmm. We need to change and try to fit in. Really. Fit in with who? Iran? Cambodia? North Korea? Syria? Libya? Sudan? Bulgaria? China? Venezuela? Cuba? Russia? Angola? If fitting in means becoming more like these places and less like what we are right now, I vote that we don't change a thing, thank you very much....

The world is full of doers and sayers. The US is a country of doers. Our 200 year history makes this fact fairly self-evident. No need to drag out the overly long laundry list.

Sometimes we do the wrong thing. That is the price and risk of being a doer. But our fate is firmly in our own hands, and if we fall to ruin some day, we will at least take comfort in the fact that is was our oun fault, and that we were not victims of another. If Americans are not one thing, we are not a country of victims. Being victimized is the one sole thing that every American finds completely unacceptable. Victimize us and you will feel our wrath. That is not a prideful statement - it is just the way we are constructed, and we talk and act based on this national sense of invulnerability. You are probably right when you say that most Americans feel superior to the rest of the world. That is beause we have seen the rest of the world and we are unconvinced that your alternative ways of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are superior to ours. We know a good thing when we see it. Ours isn't perfect, but its the best available that we've seen.

I, for one, am not interested in "changing" to make the rest of the world happy. Great leaders do not change to suit the desires and wishes of those they lead. They make bold decisions and those who desire to follow will do so. Leadership by example is a sword that cuts both ways, and we are currently in a period were our leadership is alientating more than it is inspiring. That will have to be dealt with, and our government is design to not allow that type of situation to continue. Soon enough BushCo will be gone and things will change for the better, this we know. But if you really think that we will "change" they way we do things in order to "fit in" with the rest of the world, you are wrong. Our forefathers came here to be rid of the like of "the rest of the world". What we set up and now have here is certainly different then everywhere else - and I wouldn't trade it for the world.