Why Believe in the christian God? I dont understand why one does

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
1. God gave man the reasoning skills with which man can reject currently accepted Christian doctrine. If such is the case man is only rejecting the doctrine, because of the tools which God gave him to discern between the truth and fallacies. As such if God had given man extremely good reasoning skills all humans could indeed discern between the truth, and be "saved". This would lead to everyone going to heaven.

I think you are right on with that statement, I see life as a test from God, Satan and sin are challenges for us, they shape us, they seperate the weak from the strong, the ones that can discern the truth through all of the deception will be saved, and he already knows that a good majority WILL recieve salvation and thats why he is doing it in the first place!

reasoning and logic have no part in matters of faith

the ones that can discern the truth through all of the deception will be saved, and he already knows that a good majority WILL recieve salvation and thats why he is doing it in the first place!

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Just reffering to just me 2's post on 'hell'. Sorry for not quoting but it was a hell of a long post!

If hell is eternal and ongoing yada yada yada, then surely you would become numb to the pain, because without a contrast of say peace or serenity, the pain and suffering would have nothing to measure up to.

And to say that if jesus talked about it then shouldnt we?
Thats quite an asumption that any or all of us believe in jesus...

To be honest i cant believe how the world has evolved so far and yet we are letting things like religion drag us back to the stone age...

So frustrating :bnghd:

AkashicWanderer has made some great point here, why is it that you "believers" do not answer them? It is like you guys are in some kind of wierd fantasy, like a cult and cannot reason because of all the brainwashing.

God does not punish his/her children for eternity for not believing in the Christain doctrine of Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Why would God do that? God knows all, God created all, why would he create those that have enough going on to see through the childishly simple doctrine of believe in me or go to hell forever?

Sorry good sheep this is not how it works. This is why your numbers are shrinking in this nation. People do not like egomaniac petty tyrants. I am insulted everytime you people insinuate that God is that way. I am really most upset by the fact that you have destroyed so much knowledge that mankind could really use right about now.

I know it sounds harsh, and I believe in tolerance but your religion has been twistd into something that is very ugly and that needs to stop. You make it spo some poeple dont want to believe in anything(like that poor fellow that gets his athiestic belief reinforced because of Katrina) if he had full knowledge of some other eastern beliefs he would accept things more easly.

The one life learn it or burn way of thinking leads to a lot of suffering that is not needed. I really think you bible thumpers are following something very bad and controlling and should stop.

Just my opinion.

LoneGunman,
You obviously believe in some concept of God, so, in your belief system,
how do you think one gains access to Heaven?

This is a very basic religeous question. If God is truly omnicient, why does he need to worry about us believing in him. I know what I think, but if someone disagrees with me I won't want to harm them for eternity. I may try to convince them otherwise through conversation and debate, but physical harm would not enter my mind. Am I more evolved intellectually than one who is omnicient?

I do believe in God, but that god would be more likely compared with an all encompassing energy that binds everything in the universe together as one, as opposed to seperating everything in the universe into seperate factions. My "god" is more like the membrane described in string theory. God is what everything conects to, and because of that everything in the universe is really one thing. That is the reason to "do unto others" not for fear of attack, or reward, that would still be selfish. YOu do unto others because THEY ARE YOU AND YOU ARE THEM!!!!

Originally posted by just me 2
LoneGunman,
You obviously believe in some concept of God, so, in your belief system,
how do you think one gains access to Heaven?

It all has to do with what you do with the lives you live. If you learn all there is to experience in this plain of existance you move onto the next one. If you go around harming others your soul is not learning what your life is teaching you and you do not move very far along in that lifetime. We live every life, and experience everything. We are the abuser and the abusee, we are the tyrant and the oppressed, we are the rich and the poor, the teacher and the student. Once you have lived all experiences, once you have learned all there is in the physical plain we move on to the next one.

This is the only way that adds up to me and makes life in the physical plain have meaning. Otherwise sudden infant death syndrome would not make sense, or abortion. One shot at life to experience a chance at nothing leaves me with a very cold feeling. I am Fire/Rescue and I have seen more than a man deserves to see. My spiritual path helps me make it all come together though my friend.

Walk into a the metaphysical section or new age section of your local Barnes and Noble bookstore and read about some of this. Check out some eastern religions, you will find there is nothing "new age" about it, in fact my religion can be traced back nearly 30,000 years to the dravidians in the Indu valley. The Christains are the new religion on the block.

To leave the typo or to edit th typo, that is the question. The only problem is that I always find more, for some reason I only can see them in the final post!!

[edit on 25-10-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Heaven isn't the chocolate center in the middle of a tootsie pop. Life is about more than rewards and smacks on the snoot. Life is about understanding, and learning. When a religion tells you that information that is unusual is "evil" and needs to be ignored, the religion is denying the most basic needs of humanity, and doing more damage than good.
Indiana Jones (Dr. Vendyl Jones) made a relevant statement regarding organized religions:

"Religions can be likened to Rat Poison, 99 percent sweet cookie, 1% arsenic...and 1 percent arsenic kills...Most religions give you 99% truths and feel good messages....but the 1 percent lies can kill you"

Originally posted by Jehosephat
reasoning and logic have no part in matters of faith

Aw, where's my lol icon when I need it? Wait a minute, maybe this works...

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Thanks, bra, you summed it up quite nicely. If it makes sense logically and is reasonable, it has no bearing on faith. But, if it takes a hell of a stretch of the imagination and doesn't make sense, it has a bearing on faith. Boy, does that explain a lot...

Are you good enough to get into Heaven?
Take this test and find out

www.livingwaters.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.livingwaters.com...

[edit on 10/11/2005 by just me 2]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
This is a very basic religeous question. If God is truly omnicient, why does he need to worry about us believing in him. I know what I think, but if someone disagrees with me I won't want to harm them for eternity. I may try to convince them otherwise through conversation and debate, but physical harm would not enter my mind. Am I more evolved intellectually than one who is omnicient?

God doesn't need to worry about us believing in him. The issue of Hell and punishment has to do with disobedience to God's acceptable moral standards. To understand this concept you must examine God's charachter as revealed in the scriptures. He is shown as Purely holy, righteous, and just. Hating evil and injustice. In being so he is required by his very nature to repay the evil you do. For him to tolerate your actions would be for him to tolerate evil. and to tolerate evil would be evil in and of itself. Nothing that is purely Good can tolerate evil. It's not that God wants to see you punished or to see you suffer but what choice does he have if your sins are not washed under the blood of Christ? He has no choice but to judge you by your actions against his perfect moral standard. Now some may ask the issue of why is evil allowed to flourish. I again remind you that there is a judgement day in which all will be revealed and noone who has denied the gift of forgiveness thru christ will go unpunished. Christians are only forgiven because someone else took the punishment for us, we in no way got off scott-free. We live every day with the knowledge that our Lord and Saviour was punished and died so that we may have a relationship with God. He took the torture that was meant for us. God demands justice for Sin.

Originally posted by Apolojetix
In being so he is required by his very nature to repay the evil you do. For him to tolerate your actions would be for him to tolerate evil. and to tolerate evil would be evil in and of itself.

Your thesis is that hell is a way to repay the karma that we accumulated in our human life.

I could understand that if hell was considered in the currently accepted Christian doctrine as temporary. I mean after 6 000 000 000 000 years you'd think someone would be able to pay off whatever evil deeds they did in their life, and I'm sure the person would have learnt a good lesson while being tortured. The person would then rejoin everyone in heaven, and with his newfound lessons accept Jesus Christ and everyone would live happily ever after.

BUT

In the currently accepted Christian doctrine, hell is considered to be eternal. No matter how much you suffer, you can never repay God. The punishment of hell might teach you some things, but you will never be able to put those lessons into use because you are being eternally tortured. You will not live happily ever after, instead you will be tortured forever.

Your thesis doesn't seem too logical does it?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
I could understand that if hell was considered in the currently accepted Christian doctrine as temporary. I mean after 6 000 000 000 000 years you'd think someone would be able to pay off whatever evil deeds they did in their life, and I'm sure the person would have learnt a good lesson while being tortured. The person would then rejoin everyone in heaven, and with his newfound lessons accept Jesus Christ and everyone would live happily ever after.

I'm hestitant to talk about this because I know a lot of devout Christians and others are firm on their beliefs that Hell is eternal punishment for your sins, and you non-acceptance of Christ. However, something I and a well read(in the Bible) spiritual friend of mine have been pondering, and that I've mentioned in another thread recently, what if Hell isn't eternal, perhaps its just a holding place until the final judgement, thats what my friend is leaning towards and I think I may be too.

I see God as all good and I really don't understand why he would condemn everyone on Earth that hasn't accepted him knowing that a percentage of those people(big or small) probably never even got a chance to be exposed to his word through a Bible. During the Tribulation there will be widespread preaching of the gospel through both man and higher being, I tend to look at this period as our last chance. Like I said in the other thread though, make no mistake I think there are people who already have their fate sealed, those that; knowingly reject God and slander his name, those that have commited unthinkable crimes, and I do believe that there are certain families that have been cursed by God because they are evil from the roots. This is all speculation on my part, but overall, it obvious that there is much sin and much evil on this Earth that was not intended and hence it has to be taken care of one way or another...right?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
In the currently accepted Christian doctrine, hell is considered to be eternal. No matter how much you suffer, you can never repay God. The punishment of hell might teach you some things, but you will never be able to put those lessons into use because you are being eternally tortured. You will not live happily ever after, instead you will be tortured forever.

Doesn't make sense does it, thats why I asked "just me 2" in the other thread to reference ANY scriptures relating to the reason for the creation of Hell, of course I never got any response.

I am confident I will get to the bottom of this eventually with more reading of the scriptures, and a little help from God.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by Apolojetix
In being so he is required by his very nature to repay the evil you do. For him to tolerate your actions would be for him to tolerate evil. and to tolerate evil would be evil in and of itself.

Your thesis is that hell is a way to repay the karma that we accumulated in our human life.

I could understand that if hell was considered in the currently accepted Christian doctrine as temporary. I mean after 6 000 000 000 000 years you'd think someone would be able to pay off whatever evil deeds they did in their life, and I'm sure the person would have learnt a good lesson while being tortured. The person would then rejoin everyone in heaven, and with his newfound lessons accept Jesus Christ and everyone would live happily ever after.

BUT

In the currently accepted Christian doctrine, hell is considered to be eternal. No matter how much you suffer, you can never repay God. The punishment of hell might teach you some things, but you will never be able to put those lessons into use because you are being eternally tortured. You will not live happily ever after, instead you will be tortured forever.

Your thesis doesn't seem too logical does it?

It has nothing to do with repayment, you make God sound like a kid who's trying to get even cause you took his candy away. He is seeking after Justice for the things that you have done. The same way a judge seeks justice in a court of law. God made it perfectly clear what the punishment was for trangressing his law, yet people do it everyday, and by refusing the gift of atonement what choice does a judge have but to convict . Let me ask you this, what makes you think that after all this time you've had on earth to make the choices that you've made,including rejecting the gospel, that all of a sudden you'll come to a "realazation" and just choose to be with Jesus, it makes sense that if you rejected him in your life you will reject him in your eternity. The bible says that God holds judgement on the earth untill the Fullness of the gentiles are brought in, and when that happens he releases judgement on the earth, God is omnicent and holds judgement untill every last person that is ever going to accept christ does so, he gives everyone a chance up to the very end to repent and believe, he's seen the decesions you've made and knows who will and will not accept the message. If you find yourself judged it's not because your karma is being "repayed" it's because you chose to live in a manner that rejected God.

Originally posted by Apolojetix
It has nothing to do with repayment, you make God sound like a kid who's trying to get even cause you took his candy away.

(Bolding done by me)

If it has nothing to do with repayment I assume that this scentence which was found in your 1st post was a complete typo:

Originally posted by Apolojetix
In being so he is required by his very nature to repay the evil you do. For him to tolerate your actions would be for him to tolerate evil.

If that whole scentence was not a typo then it seems by your standards it is YOU, not me, that is making God sound like a kid who's trying to get even cause you took his candy away

He is seeking after Justice for the things that you have done.

Logically infinite punishment will be a fair scentence for finite deeds.

Let me ask you this, what makes you think that after all this time you've had on earth to make the choices that you've made,including rejecting the gospel,

In my opinion I do not reject the Gospel. If somehow through the text written through this internet discussion forum you have come to opiniate in such a way, so be it.

that all of a sudden you'll come to a "realazation" and just choose to be with Jesus, it makes sense that if you rejected him in your life you will reject him in your eternity.

First of all, if that was directed at me, I do not reject Christ.

Secondly, let's say a person lives to be 12 years of age. He hears about Christianity, but his parents tell him that it it full of lies, and he sticks with his native religion, Buddhism. This person dies at 12 years of age, without accepting Jesus Christ as his saviour. He will now be eternally tormented becuase of not accepting Jesus in his life. Do you think this person will never repent?

You must also take into account what when you're burning in hell you:

1. KNOW that Jesus Christ was the saviour (while on earth some people do not)

2. are being motivated by extreme pain to accept him

3. have an infinitely larger amount of time to accept him than you do in your earthly life.

Your opinion is that if a person rejects Jesus Christ in 50 years, he will not accept Christ in 7 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000, while being tortured, and knowing that Jesus Christ is saviour.

The bible says that God holds judgement on the earth untill the Fullness of the gentiles are brought in, and when that happens he releases judgement on the earth, God is omnicent and holds judgement untill every last person that is ever going to accept christ does so, he gives everyone a chance up to the very end to repent and believe, he's seen the decesions you've made and knows who will and will not accept the message.

Do you mind quoting the scriptures in order to prove that the Bible says this?

If you find yourself judged it's not because your karma is being "repayed" it's because you chose to live in a manner that rejected God.

According to the bible, everyone will be judged. By your logic everyone has rejected God.

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic

Originally posted by ncbrian211
It would be horrific to find out one day if this religion is actually the thought of the devil, himself if there is one...
How all christians were fooled by an messenger of evil.....
How god has been telling you to careful of false prophets...

It would be more horrific to hear of Christ and how He came to save you and reject it. 2, 3 ,4 15 times and everytime your heart gets a little harder to the truth of Jesus. Then your life comes to it's end and you are standing before Jesus and you have to depart His presence forever, because you rejected the only way to be saved.

In the Hindu religion, heaven and hell exist, and we will spend time in both places. For all of the deeds that were in accordance with Dharma (honor) the soul would spend time in the bliss of heaven. Conversely, for all deeds adharmic the soul will spend time in hell. The drawback is that while in either place, no further acts can be commited, only the bliss exists. After your time is up, back to Earth for reincarnation.

This brings up some interesting points about the Christian heaven. What of good deeds enacted when in hell, or evil deeds enacted in heaven. What classifies evil when in heaven? What classifies good when in hell? Are we able to think, act, or speak in either? Could I turn away from the gates of heaven, if my most beloved person on earth were denied? Is debate allowed in heaven, or is any oposing viewpoint automatically a hellbound offense for the dead? Do we have free will in heaven, or is that free will nullified because only one type of viewpoint is allowed?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
This brings up some interesting points about the Christian heaven. What of good deeds enacted when in hell, or evil deeds enacted in heaven. What classifies evil when in heaven? What classifies good when in hell? Are we able to think, act, or speak in either? Could I turn away from the gates of heaven, if my most beloved person on earth were denied? Is debate allowed in heaven, or is any oposing viewpoint automatically a hellbound offense for the dead? Do we have free will in heaven, or is that free will nullified because only one type of viewpoint is allowed?

Hell is a place of permanent seperation from the presence of God. There are no deeds done in hell to lessen or increase it's dimension for the person experiencing it. It will be a place of torment(I am not saying the devil will have access to people and torment them) the torment is retaining your sins for all eternity, complete seperation from God, aloneness, regret, darkness(literal and/or spiritual.)

There are no evil deeds done in heaven. Heaven is part of the reward for coming to God as He prescribes, through Christ. Someone in heaven will literally see God as He is(no one has done this yet) and live with Him forever and travel all of creation and work with God for all eternity. God is going to share what He can do with us. Those in heaven will not be able to sin, we will have been changed by God,having incorrutible bodies, souls and spirits.

People who have eternal life will be able to think and speak and act. We will be more alive than we we can imagine and we will be capable of living to a potential that only God knows right now. We will not have to live 1000 lives trying to get it right. Through Christ we are made right and accepted by God.

Those in hell will remember and experience suffering that lasts forever in length.

When you enter heaven you won't want to turn away. If someone we knew is not in heaven we will understand at that point that it was their choice. God makes no mistakes. That is why christians proclaim the Gospel because people only have this one life to accept Christ and escape hell. The Bible informs us that people who are in hell do not want those they know to go there, and they realize that they are there and cannot leave. In heaven we will be changed and we will know some things God knows and our perception will be such that we will understand.

The free will to sin is gone when the saved enter heaven. We will experience everything good that is possible to experience but without the tainting that sin brings. We will also not be limited to heaven we will be able to travel the universe and see ALL God has made or will make.

The thousand lives are there to allow us to experience everything. If anything this is the best way to exersize the free will that god has given us. live a thousand lives, as a thousand people, have a thousand stories, and a thousand reasons to love God.

Only one kind of person gets into heaven. The conversations must be very boring if that's the case. If I have a differing opinion I'm screwed. You can't say that it won't happen, because the precident has been set. When Lucifer rebelled, he showed that being in God's pressence doesn't mean you have to agree with him. There must be an annual God Loyalty test that is taken once a year, much like renewing your license to heaven.