US Army in Iraq Occupies 7 Mosques in Ramadi and Turns Them into Barracks

I'm done here. every time the point is raised that the insurgents do this to a far worse degree....

Thats because its not a valid argument.

It is off-topic, and ignores what we have done.

You are comparing the Insugents to America when you do so.

Do you see us, and them as the same???

'To a far worse degree'???

America has killed tens of thousands, and maybe over 100,000 people, trashed cities, and tortured thousands.

How can you compare what Insurgents have done with what America has done?

If you think they are evil then we must be even more evil.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

I'm done here. every time the point is raised that the insurgents do this to a far worse degree....

Thats because its not a valid argument.

It is off-topic, and ignores what we have done.

You are comparing the Insugents to America when you do so.

Do you see us, and them as the same???

'To a far worse degree'???

America has killed tens of thousands, and maybe over 100,000 people, trashed cities, and tortured thousands.

How can you compare what Insurgents have done with what America has done?

If you think they are evil then we must be even more evil.

again, you put words in my mouth. never said anyone was evil. said the insurgents take over the mosques, not to pray but to store weapons and to fire at the military, thereby making the mosque a military target. this is far worse than simply setting up a barracks there, which will result in more protection for the mosque so that, some day, it can be used as a house of worship and not a place to bomb innocent people going to pray.

now, when you can open your eyes to the fact that the insurgents put the mosques at more risk than a military barracks, and you can admit that what they do is wrong, then I can see trying to have a debate with you. However, as has become very evident, you see one side and refuse to budge because, let's face it, those insurgents are right in there bombings of mosques and killing innocent muslims who are there to pray. those insurgents are the stuff of heroes. their noble acts of desecrating mosques should be written about and honored.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
America has killed tens of thousands, and maybe over 100,000 people, trashed cities, and tortured thousands.

Really? or maybe? Which quote do we go with? 'tens of thousands'? or 'maybe over 100,000 people'?

Trashed cities? As in getting rid of insurgents? Ah yes, that must be what you mean.
Tortured thousands? Cant say i have read about thousands being tortured, Maybe you have a link to verify that thousands were tortured?

How can you compare what Insurgents have done with what America has done?

Well........... I suppose we cannot do a comparison here can we? The coalition does not use suicide bombers to decimate the innocent population. No comparison, no story, no point in the quote really.

If you think they are evil then we must be even more evil.

Yep, we are terrible. All the beheadings we have done to Iraqi insurgents is a real crime. Even worse, we have taken video footage of us actually doing it. Guess we are just as bad eh?

edit to stress the fact to some, that sarcasm was used rather haphazardly

[edit on 9-10-2005 by Bikereddie]

Originally posted by Bikereddie
Really? or maybe? Which quote do we go with? 'tens of thousands'? or 'maybe over 100,000 people'?
-------
Trashed cities? As in getting rid of insurgents? Ah yes, that must be what you mean.
Tortured thousands? Cant say i have read about thousands being tortured, Maybe you have a link to verify that thousands were tortured?
-------
Yep, we are terrible. All the beheadings we have done to Iraqi insurgents is a real crime. Even worse, we have taken video footage of us actually doing it. Guess we are just as bad eh?

I think tens of thousands is probably the most accurate.
The Pentagon, back in July 2005, said that 50,000 insurgents had been killed or captured during the last seven months. I don't know what percentage were killed vs captured but it's still high this far into the war. If you add those killed in 2003 and 2004 it would really raise those figures. 50,000 Iraqi insurgents dead, caught

Trashing cities can refer to Fallujah, in which the infrastructure was destroyed and every street had buildings that were either damaged or destroyed completely. It resulted in over 100,000 refugees, many of whom were still living in tent cities as of March 2005. Fallujah Aftermath

US forces are not beheading people but Iraqis are getting killed all the same and it is getting filmed and those videos are being distributed. Deuce_Four_in_Mosul

EDIT: Altered last link because direct link to video brought up main page instead of file.


[edit on 9-10-2005 by AceOfBase]

Your points were stressed with more support than the original quote i replied to.

I admit that the US is not beheading people, i was stresing the comparison that was made in the quote. Yes they have killed people, but not in the brutal way that we have witnessed the insurgents doing.

There is still the quote of torturing thousands that i can find no coverage on.

Not sure last link is suitable for ATS. Its got links to porn within it.

[edit on 9-10-2005 by Bikereddie]

Try the last link again.
I tried to link directly to the video earlier but that didn't work.

If the video stream doesn't work well, click the download link below the stream.

The link directed me straight to the video clip. Yes, it shows Americans using firepower etc.

It also gives links to plenty of porn too.

Originally posted by Bikereddie

It also gives links to plenty of porn too.

you say that like it's a bad thing

Originally posted by Crakeur

Originally posted by Bikereddie

It also gives links to plenty of porn too.

you say that like it's a bad thing

It is on ATS. I once linked to a great video clip, but like an idiot, i forgot that it also hosted porn sites

I got me a warning for it too. I aint made the same mistake again either.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

the us military is resting there. it isn't right but please spare us the war crime complaints......

If they were simply 'resting' it would not be a Warcrime, but since they are moving in it is a Warcrime.

Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907

Art. 56.
The property of municipalities, that of institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, even when State property, shall be treated as private property.

All seizure of, destruction or wilful damage done to institutions of this character, historic monuments, works of art and science, is forbidden, and should be made the subject of legal proceedings.

Note that there are no exceptions such as that within Article 53 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions.

Art. 53. Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.

[edit on 8-10-2005 by ArchAngel]

Thats all nice and good but Iraq is not a member of the hague convention.

www.hcch.net...

The hague conventions only apply in wars between signing members. Iraq is not a member so no violation Convention shall apply as between Contracting States only

so no war crime

You got to read the fine print

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Thats all nice and good but Iraq is not a member of the hague convention.

www.hcch.net...

The hague conventions only apply in wars between signing members. Iraq is not a member so no violation Convention shall apply as between Contracting States only

so no war crime

You got to read the fine print

I must commend you on your use of logic, and attempt at debunking me, but I must also point out the source of your error.

There are many Hague conventions, and I was refering to The 1907 Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV) which Iraq signed in 1970.

Your link is for signatories to the Hague Conference on Private International Law.

Opps I stand corrected it was Iran and North Korea that didnt sign that one.

I thought Iraq didnt sign it aswell


BTW is there any more evidence besides that small article you linked to to support the claims the US did this?

[edit on 9-10-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by Souljah
external image

I am sure that US Marine Core have Used Mosques a number of times for their improvised Barracks. Here's a pictre from Fallujah. So I guess its OK to hide in Mosques, right?

Mod Edit: Image Size – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 8/10/2005 by Mirthful Me]

this is so stupid, its obvious that the Marines were cut out and pasted onto the background. if you look at most Marines sitting down theyre leaning back into nothing. this is cheap and low.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
BTW is there any more evidence besides that small article you linked to to support the claims the US did this?

www.int.iol.co.za...

www.dailykos.com...

www.alertnet.org...

www.guardian.co.uk...

www.jang.com.pk...

www.isn.ethz.ch...

There are more if you would like....

Originally posted by Danie
this is so stupid, its obvious that the Marines were cut out and pasted onto the background. if you look at most Marines sitting down theyre leaning back into nothing. this is cheap and low.

It's not fake, you're just in denial.

Here's the photo on a news site:

AP Photo/Los Angeles Times, Luis Sinco
Members of Charlie Company of the First Marine Division, 6th Regiment, regroup inside a mosque in Fallujah only hours after taking it. Routed insurgents soon regrouped and rained heavy fire on the mosque, prompting the Marines to leave
signonsandiego

Originally posted by Danie
this is so stupid, its obvious that the Marines were cut out and pasted onto the background. if you look at most Marines sitting down theyre leaning back into nothing. this is cheap and low.

They are leaning back against there packs

Its obvious...

[edit on 9-10-2005 by C0le]

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
BTW is there any more evidence besides that small article you linked to to support the claims the US did this?

www.int.iol.co.za...

www.dailykos.com...

www.alertnet.org...

www.guardian.co.uk...

www.jang.com.pk...

www.isn.ethz.ch...

There are more if you would like....

I would like a few more since all those deal with the bombing of bridges and not US troops using mosques as barracks. Im asking for more information on them using the mosques


As for that picture posted why do they look so different. The one posted first looks really fishy like a bad photoshop job and the same pic posted by AceOfBase looks real

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
I would like a few more since all those deal with the bombing of bridges and not US troops using mosques as barracks. Im asking for more information on them using the mosques


As for that picture posted why do they look so different. The one posted first looks really fishy like a bad photoshop job and the same pic posted by AceOfBase looks real

Sorry, wrong thread.

There are copies of the article at many other sites, but nothing different than what the Iraqi News Agency said.

It appears they are the official news agency for the Iraqi State.

Their web site is down now so I can't say much else about it.

i-cias.com...

[edit on 9-10-2005 by ArchAngel]

ArchAngel, did the Troops fire/target mosque because insurgents were shooting from the mosque? If that's the case...what other choice do they have? Sacred place or not....

Like someone else said...if that the case, why not arrest them?

Well, IMO, it's pretty hard to arrest someone that has RPG's and AK's.....especially if they're fireing from a building/mosque.

[edit on 9/10/2005 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by AceOfBase
AP Photo/Los Angeles Times, Luis SincoMembers of Charlie Company of the First Marine Division, 6th Regiment, regroup inside a mosque in Fallujah only hours after taking it. Routed insurgents soon regrouped and rained heavy fire on the mosque, prompting the Marines to leave

Given the topic of the thread, this only supports militants were using the mosque prior to the photgraph “routed” and came back (attacked the mosque) to attack the marines.

So...... exactly what is the use of this photograph and what does it convey?...

.