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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Gemwolf,
You provided us with a surprisingly interesting and well thought out rebuttal.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Wow, a compliment from you. You see, this is what I mean. You show just a little bit of respect, and my whole view of you changes. I've now gone from completely disliking you, to thinking that you're actually not such a bad guy. Thanks.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
However, in staying on track with the original issue, the question is not if there was or is a God, but instead whether or not Jesus is a god or God and you providing evidence to support that notion
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Aha. Are we getting closer to the issue?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
It seems like you have a Jewish view on this?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
You don't think that Jesus of Nazareth existed, or if He existed, you don't think He was the Son of God? And even one step further, you don't believe that the only way to heaven is through Him?
Well, to that I might not have such a clear answer. Again, it's a case of Faith and making up your own mind.
Take any random person from history. King Arthur. Julius Caesar. Noah. Anyone. How do we prove that they actually existed? It's impossible! All we have are "records" of events, "historical places", etc. etc. How do we prove that Jesus was in fact the Son of God? The Messiah. We don't. The High Priests crucified Jesus for saying that He was the Messiah. And so fulfilled many prophesies. The events surrounding His life, and what happened thereafter is (in my opinion) enough proof that He is in fact the only way "in". As with everything else (as I said above) you are given certain "facts" and what you do with it, is your own business. If you decide it is facts, then you'll probably be a Christian. If you don't believe it to be facts, then we get a "Paul_Richard" ...
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
I don't question that there was an Original Creator of ALL THAT IS. Only that a prophet from a traditional religion is aligned with same.
IMHO, The First Coming of The Original Creator has yet to occur.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Aah. I see. You do have an opinion. Your statement is not based on any fact. Yes. Certain circumstances and events lead you to believe this is true. As the opposite with me is true.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Near death experience research indicates that no one ever truly gets away with anything. The checks and balances of reality exist in the discarnate dimensions. Those who serve others and strive to live by The Golden Rule are rewarded when they leave their bodies - by their ability to ascend into The Light Of The God Force. The higher the plane, the more energy available, the greater the expansion of consciousness, and the more spiritual the environment.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
I'm not sure where this fits in, but I see no problem with it.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
I respect others views on God and religion as long as they don't proclaim their "god" to be "The Only Way" and that their "god" is omnipotent.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Well, doesn't having a view include proclaiming something? You don't really respect their religion and view on God, if you don't respect their view that Jesus is the only way, do you?
Questioning it, is I'm sure by all means valid, but attacking it?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Omnipotent: Having unlimited authority or power. God is said to be omnipotent, controlling all forces and phenomena of nature. Man often behaves as though he is omnipotent; however, he is self-deceived.
I don't understand? You believe in an Original Creator, and you believe that he (and he alone) would come again.... Isn't the "Original Creator" omnipotent? Or is he one of many "gods" with powers?
Jesus is just as much omnipotent as God (the Creator), because Jesus is included in the Holy Trinity... And on this point, I suppose you have strong opinion about the Holy Spirit as well?
Originally posted by masqua
There is no such thing as a false God. The Deity stands alone as the creator of the universe and has no form to be imagined by us.
There are multitudes of humans throughout the ages which have been awarded the status of Godliness in the attempt to put a human form onto this Deity, (ie. the Greek Pantheon, Isis and Osiris, Lug, Thor, Jesus...and the list goes on) but they are all humans and not God.
Originally posted by masqua
When a form is conjured, whether it is a human, ram, bull, fish or a golden calf, it is an attempt to bring the image of God into something which is part of the natural world.
When a form becomes Godlike in the minds of people, there is a tendency to create a mythos about that form via statues, writings, art, etc. The establishment of such writings then become the basis for religions.
Originally posted by masqua
Religions, then, are the result of a 'formed God' coupled with the establisment of a cult based on the ideology explicit within its' accompanying literature.
Thereby, all 'forms' are false...because we cannot 'know' God, we can only sense Deity in our own hearts and minds. We cannot know how God is perceived by another any more than we could fathom what a Zebra senses as it scans the horizons of the Serengeti.
Originally posted by masqua
In this immense universe, we are like babies which have just opened our eyes. We are still dependent on our Mother (Earth) and cannot leave her (yet). In our infantile understandings of Deity, we have projected our earthly images to this God, and I'm sure that God (the Creator) is far more interesting than whatever we earthlings have come up with yet.
Originally posted by masqua
Maybe we can only ever come to a personal knowledge of God, like a friendship between our soul and our physical being. All other means are vain, arrogant and doomed to failure eventually.
Besides, why agonize about who's God is greater, false, nicest, meanest, etc. when we will ALL find out after we die? Best to come to a personal understanding with your Creator by acting out our lives in the manner which feels right to our conscience.
Originally posted by FallenOne
I don't think you can have a problem with any of those myths if you do not adhere to them, perhaps he was angry at the people who do horrible stuff in their dieties' names? Just a thought. Most of the time, a religion is considered good/bad by what its followers actually do, rather than what its scriptures say they should do. Two major factors that kinda peev me are the Inquisition and WWII (the church backed Hitler). I am interested in hearing the other guy's arguments though.
Originally posted by FallenOne
I don't think you can have a problem with any of those myths if you do not adhere to them, perhaps he was angry at the people who do horrible stuff in their dieties' names?
Originally posted by sugeshotcha
with the help of the Knights of Malta nazi gold was smuggled by Pinochet (Argentinian president) via the Vatican Bank. Also Christianity is a religion created for the purpose of a tool of power and control through propaganda. A lot of the characters (Jesus, Mary etc) came from the Pagan religion at least (and there may have been other religions which they were taken from).
Originally posted by sugeshotcha
The think I find a dead giveaway in the Christian bible is when God says I am your one and only God, you shall worship, believe and have no other Gods before you. That part just doesn't make sense to me as being a statement of freedom by the grand creator.
Originally posted by GemWorld
On the other hand, suppose you choose not to believe in God or lead a good, moral life and you are wrong! You will have all eternity to regret turning your back on God. And in addition, your life here will (in all probability) be much less happy. It is lose-lose.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
I don't have any problem believing that the prophet, Jesus of Nazareth, also known as Issa and Jus/Yus Asaf, existed. That is an argument that others use. My issue is not his status in existing or being a prophet, but in being a god, God or an Ascended Master.
In order for anyone to be a god, God or an Ascended Master, there would have to be some significant evidence of his/her present-day...
...COMPASSION IN ACTION.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Again, we are not here debating whether or not a God started Creation, only if Jesus was divine.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
It fits because it means that believing in a god icon is not enough. You also have to strive to be a good person. Character is what leads to salvation, not lip service to a purported deity
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Addressing the sexual abuse of the Christian clergy towards thousands of innocent children around the world is not an attack. It is stating the obvious.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Omnipotent: Having unlimited authority or power. God is said to be omnipotent, controlling all forces and phenomena of nature. Man often behaves as though he is omnipotent; however, he is self-deceived.
I don't understand? You believe in an Original Creator, and you believe that he (and he alone) would come again.... Isn't the "Original Creator" omnipotent? Or is he one of many "gods" with powers?
Jesus is just as much omnipotent as God (the Creator), because Jesus is included in the Holy Trinity... And on this point, I suppose you have strong opinion about the Holy Spirit as well?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
An interesting side debate...
Okay...I’ll bite...
First off, The Original Creator was not omnipotent and I don't espouse that He/She was.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
A common misperception among those in the flesh is that The Original Creator and The Light Of The God Force (that near death experiencers often report being "at the end of the tunnel") are one and the same.
They are not.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The Light is like gravity or electromagnetism. It is an energy that resides and stems from the discarnate dimensions and it operates off of a completely different set of principles than the physical spectrum.
The Original Creator evolved in The Light to a very high degree but no being or soul is infinite, as all spiritual evolution is a matter of degree.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
This conclusion is not based on faith, but logic. Many scientists have determined (through mathematical calculation and radio astronomy) that the Universe is not endless, just extremely large. It therefore stands to reason that the being that initiated The Big Bang was also not infinite, just very highly evolved
Originally posted by Gemwolf
So. Jesus was in fact a god or a deity... But what proof do I have of it? That Jesus was (and still is!) a God, and not "just another prophet"?
- I'd just like to point out to the last part of the definition. You don't even need powers to be a god! All you need is someone who worships you, and you're a god! -
Originally posted by Gemwolf
We already touched the subject. The people (high Priests) who crucified Jesus...
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Why does God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit allow wars, allow hunger, allow kids to be raped/molested - especially by Christian leaders? As others in this thread argued - Christians killed "millions" (sic) in God's name.
They keep forgetting free will. People are left to do what they please. The human is a selfish being. And not to forget the infamous Satan...
Originally posted by Gemwolf
But why exactly does God allow bad things to happen?
Many good people suffer greatly in this life. The most famous was Job, in the Bible. No ordinary person ever suffered as much as he did, and yet God loved him specially, because he was such a good man. This was told to us in the Bible as a lesson for us, that suffering is to be expected for everyone.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
The question is, why? Why can't we live like angels, and be happy all our lives?
Indeed, that is exactly how we started out!
Although we once lived in Paradise where there was no suffering, we rebelled against God and were expelled. Now, thanks to Christ, we have a second chance for eternal happiness.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
From the beginning, God knew that He wanted to share, with true children, the happiness of existence that He enjoyed. He knew that we must have free will, because free will is the essence of His nature. He did not want pets or toys; he wanted children, made in His own likeness and image. This would be difficult, and complicated.
He knew that He wanted us in Paradise with Him, and that is where He started us out. But He also knew that we would soon (being very much like Him) think that we were His equal, and rebel against Him. He knew that once we had to leave Paradise that He did not want to simply destroy us. We would be given another opportunity in this new world, a world of pain and sorrow, the consequences of our pride and wrong choices.
God has a plan to give us all an eternity of happiness in Paradise. He became true man Himself, and suffered and died so that He could, even in His infinite Justice, forgive the unforgivable sin of rebelling against God.
Therefore God does not consider the suffering that we have to go through as evil. Indeed, it was only through His own suffering and death that He is able to bring His plan forward and redeem us all. If the pain were avoidable, God Himself, as Christ, would certainly not have elected to be tortured to death here. He certainly would not have allowed His dear mother to endure the agony of watching her son be crucified. So the one thing that is certain is that pain and sorrow is an unavoidable part of His plan.
If we did not have free will as His true children, we would not have had to be removed from Paradise. There would be no suffering or sorrow, not even for God Himself as Christ. But He did want true children, it was necessary to give us free will like Himself, and so the pain and sorrow that our free will inevitably bring to us by our wrong choices is also necessary. Such are the consequences of creating true children of God. Where there are free will choices, there will inevitably be wrong choices, and there will have to be consequences. It is by retaining faith in God and His commands, through all of our pain and suffering, that our soul matures and finds God's love.
Using suffering as an excuse to turn away from God, to once again set ourselves up as a higher authority that does not have to obey Him, is evil. We have another opportunity to follow God's commands, the ones He told us in person as Jesus Christ. This time around, we are expected to maintain complete confidence that God knows better how to run the universe than we do.
Do not think that we are kept out of Paradise just because two of our ancestors rebelled. We all rebel, every day. None of us is willing to accept God's authority. We all think that we know how to lead our own lives better than He does.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
As an example, how many people think that sex outside marriage is wrong, or that they have to love and forgive our enemies, the terrorists? No one that we know. We all remain rebels.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Paul_Richard, do you have children? Don't you find that you must give them commands to obey. They are not to throw plates of food at the walls in restaurants, they must turn off the TV and go to bed at a certain time, they must go to school even when they don't want to, and so on. When they disobey, you must discipline them, right? It would not be in their own best interest to allow them to disobey. You must punish them even though you love them, for their own good. We know, as parents, lots more than they do.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
God is our Father. He also knows a lot more than we do. The commands he gave us are not arbitrary and harsh; they are in our own best interest, whether or not we think so. If we follow them, we will best enjoy this earth, this world, and at the same time best prepare ourselves for the next.
We disobey His direct command not to think of ourselves as His equal; that is, not to lead our lives according to our own rules, rather than His rules. This disobedience simply must have consequences. Justice demands it.
But our pride makes us think that we do not deserve any suffering in this life. We cannot see how it is for our own ultimate good, and are unwilling to take God's word for it. We inherit all of the ego and pride and stubbornness that we could expect from the Supreme Being of the universe, but we don't get any of his power! He does not have to submit to any authority at all, but we do. This makes things tough. We do not want to submit to any authority, but we have to submit to His, just as our children have to submit to our authority.
You are thinking like a little child who screams that they hate their mommy for punishing her. God is trying to prepare us for an eternally long life, just as your mom was trying to prepare you for your adult life.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Did I cover it all? Please keep in mind that many of this is my view on things - as I said, I am no preacher (although looking at this... LOL!) and it's up to my debating and explanation skills to convince you (and so many others) that I am right and you are wrong. Not an easy task - as many atheists are highly intelligent, thus the believe that Christians are stupid sheep just believing anything that's told to them - and somehow I feel like I don't do this difficult topic justice - whilst trying my best not to sound like a "bible thumper". Well, I'm up to page 8 in MS Word, so I'll cover the rest of your reply in a next post. Hope it was worth the reading effort...
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Addressing the sexual abuse of the Christian clergy towards thousands of innocent children around the world is not an attack. It is stating the obvious.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
No. It's hanging Christianity for the mistakes of a couple of people.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Just because a priest molest a kid doesn't make "Christianity" wrong.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Omnipotent: Having unlimited authority or power. God is said to be omnipotent, controlling all forces and phenomena of nature. Man often behaves as though he is omnipotent; however, he is self-deceived.
I don't understand? You believe in an Original Creator, and you believe that he (and he alone) would come again.... Isn't the "Original Creator" omnipotent? Or is he one of many "gods" with powers?
Jesus is just as much omnipotent as God (the Creator), because Jesus is included in the Holy Trinity... And on this point, I suppose you have strong opinion about the Holy Spirit as well?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
An interesting side debate...
Okay...I’ll bite...
First off, The Original Creator was not omnipotent and I don't espouse that He/She was.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Err... Then what was "the Original Creator" in your view? Aliens? What sort of being would be "powerful" enough to create life, the universe, etc. without being omnipotent? Or do you mean to say that there are many "Higher Beings" that are all gods, thus there cannot be a single omnipotent one?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
A common misperception among those in the flesh is that The Original Creator and The Light Of The God Force (that near death experiencers often report being "at the end of the tunnel") are one and the same.
They are not.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Someone you bring up "near death experiences" time and again into the debate. I'm sure you have good reason, and hope you point it out to me.
Do you base your whole idea about religion and "Higher Beings" on the near death experiences?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Isn't this the weakest support or evidence of a god? A near death experience can be easily explained away by science. I'm not for or against what people see in near death experiences, I'm just questioning as to why you mention it?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The Light is like gravity or electromagnetism. It is an energy that resides and stems from the discarnate dimensions and it operates off of a completely different set of principles than the physical spectrum.
The Original Creator evolved in The Light to a very high degree but no being or soul is infinite, as all spiritual evolution is a matter of degree.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
And now, it's my turn to ask where is your proof/reason for this statement and believing it? What exactly is it you believe in Paul_Richard? Is this a specific religion or your own idea about God/a god?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
This conclusion is not based on faith, but logic. Many scientists have determined (through mathematical calculation and radio astronomy) that the Universe is not endless, just extremely large. It therefore stands to reason that the being that initiated The Big Bang was also not infinite, just very highly evolved
Originally posted by Gemwolf
What would the "top" of the evolution pyramid look like? The being that sits at the very top? Or is it an endless pyramid, with a top that doesn't exist? Does this mean, that given enough time, humans could also evolve enough to create their own universes, and be gods for those universes?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Gemwolf,
I know you are trying very hard to support your case and I give you an "A" for effort.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Baal, Zeus, Hera, Mithra, and a host of others throughout history, also fit within your archaic definitions of the term, "god."
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Stop right there.
There is evidence that Issa/Jesus never died on the cross in the first place.
Issa/Jesus Escaped Death On The Cross And Went To India (German Scholar)
Issa/Jesus Escaped Death On The Cross And Went To India (Islamic Scholar)
Issa/Jesus Escaped Death On The Cross & Died In India At 80 After Proclaiming To Be The Galilean Messiah
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
As far as Jesus being the Son of God is concerned: we are all Sons and Daughters of God. That which made Jesus/Issa stand out from the other prophets of his day were his unique Gifts of the Spirit that came from a large Group Entity, not from The Original Creator -- who had nothing to do with the formation of any traditional religion.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Suppose you were a father of a large family or tribe. In that family there were a number of your children who were sexually molested and in some cases, raped, by other members of your tribe. Would you strive to stop that from happening?
Not trying to overestimate you here...but I think you would.
Would you be interefering with their free will?
Sure.
Would you be right in doing so.
Absolutely.
If you would act out of compassion and responsibility to safeguard your children, then why do you let your "god" get away with being a pedophile enabler in Christian churches?
Morality is absolute...even for dieties. There is no moral wiggle room for Jesus/Issa in not stopping pedophile abuse to thousands of innocent children in Christian churches.
Then you respond with...
"Oh, but other people in other religions do these atrocities too!"
If their purported dieties don't stop that abuse from happening in those temples and churches, they they are not true gods either.
The only gods are gods of compassion. There are no others. If the compassion and moral responsibility is lacking, then it points to a false god.
It is as simple as that.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The "god" of the Old Testiment was not The Original Creator. It was a large Group Entity of basically spiritual people or "angels" (at best) that combined their energies in order to manifest minor miracles.
The miracles found in Christianity are really no better than those found in the other traditional religions, like Hinduism for example. There is a swami in India that decades ago was referred to as "The Christ of India" because he could duplicate every miracles attributed to Jesus/Issa. I am referring to Sai Baba.
But he has abused his Gifts by being a sexual predator of young men and boys at his ashram for decades, among other atrocities committed. Consequently, the Group Entities he channeled have retrogressed from The Light and his Gifts of the Spirit have noticeably lessened with age.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
The question is, why? Why can't we live like angels, and be happy all our lives?
Indeed, that is exactly how we started out!
Although we once lived in Paradise where there was no suffering, we rebelled against God and were expelled. Now, thanks to Christ, we have a second chance for eternal happiness.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You really need to expect more of your diety.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You are espousing the false hierarchy that has been orchestrated by many Group Entities throughout the centuries. The "god" of the Old Testament and the "god" of the New Testament were Group Entities, not The Original Creator.
Which is why the spiritual and metaphysical foundation in the Bible is fragmented and incomplete. The source of the information did not come from what you would term, God, but from discarnate collectives in the Mid and Lower Realms of Spirit.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Sometimes it is good to be a rebel. It all depends on why.
As far as sex outside of marriage is concerned: the only time you should have sex at all is with love and with the focus of responsibility. If you have sex with love, in the eyes of The Light Of The God Force, you are already married, no matter what the governmental rules and the laws dictate.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
One can accurate state that I have had many children. I agree that there should be rules for them in order to guide them properly.
Originally posted by Paul_RichardMany of the ideas in the Bible, as I alluded to earlier, are distorted. Yes, a spiritual life leads to eternal life, but not exactly the way that it is explained in traditional scripture.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
I think you did a wonderful job with what you know.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
See:
An Alternative Mystical View On God
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Try hundreds, if not thousands of pedophiles in the Christian churches.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
It points to the "deity" not being a true god.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You don't have to be omnipotent to create something, just God Realized and Ascended in The Light. Large Group Entities create and teleport small objects around frequently.
Picture highly evolved souls as spheres of light colored energy. Some spheres are larger than others. The ability to create a planet requires much less development and much less energy than it does to create a galaxy. Material creation and the evolution behind it is all a matter of degree.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
I strive to bring references to light that you can understand within your frame of reference.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You may want to consult with the many Christians who have had NDE's before pursuing this line of reasoning.
Trust me...it would be to your advantage.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The Light is like gravity or electromagnetism. It is an energy that resides and stems from the discarnate dimensions and it operates off of a completely different set of principles than the physical spectrum.
The Original Creator evolved in The Light to a very high degree but no being or soul is infinite, as all spiritual evolution is a matter of degree.
Once again, see:
An Alternative Mystical View On God
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Mormons, Solists, and others all share the metaphysical understanding that all spiritual souls have the potential to evolve into becoming Co-Creators in the Light and individually be able to create their own idyllic planet.
There is no being that sits at the top of the so-called pyramid. But there is The Light Of The God Force, which is nonliving and infinite. We can never be infinite in our development, but we can grow eternally in spiritual excellence.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Baal, Zeus, Hera, Mithra, and a host of others throughout history, also fit within your archaic definitions of the term, "god."
Originally posted by Gemwolf
That was the point. You questioned if Jesus was/is a god. The point was that Jesus is a god per definition.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Stop right there.
There is evidence that Issa/Jesus never died on the cross in the first place.
Issa/Jesus Escaped Death On The Cross And Went To India (German Scholar)
Issa/Jesus Escaped Death On The Cross And Went To India (Islamic Scholar)
Issa/Jesus Escaped Death On The Cross & Died In India At 80 After Proclaiming To Be The Galilean Messiah
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Aha. Again. These are theories based on certain events and circumstances. What are we now to believe. There's enough proof that Jesus was in fact crucified, buried, resurrected and departed to heaven. But now there's "proof" that Jesus went to India and lived there with His mother?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
I'm not convinced by the latter. There is just enough evidence pointing to the events as it is recorded in the Bible. Would Jesus flee to India in fear of His life? Would he leave His followers and "the chosen nation" behind? Would the High Priests have allowed Jesus to escape and work "alongside" the disciples to pretend that Jesus died, but not admit that He wasn't resurrected?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Would the events that followed have happened if Jesus did not return to heaven?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Including the killing of certain evangilists? Including the Holy Ghost as "gift"? Why would the disciples continue to preach the story of Jesus - if they knew that He was actually alive - in such a way that it caused them misery and death?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
So many questions, and I find it hard to believe that the history happened otherwise as described in the Bible.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
As far as Jesus being the Son of God is concerned: we are all Sons and Daughters of God. That which made Jesus/Issa stand out from the other prophets of his day were his unique Gifts of the Spirit that came from a large Group Entity, not from The Original Creator -- who had nothing to do with the formation of any traditional religion.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Yes, this is a technical statement. We are all children of God. But Jesus was the true Son of God. Again you make the statement that Jesus' "gifts" were given to Him by another Entity. What do you base this theory on?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Suppose you were a father of a large family or tribe. In that family there were a number of your children who were sexually molested and in some cases, raped, by other members of your tribe. Would you strive to stop that from happening?
Not trying to overestimate you here...but I think you would.
Would you be interfering with their free will?
Sure.
Would you be right in doing so.
Absolutely.
If you would act out of compassion and responsibility to safeguard your children, then why do you let your "god" get away with being a pedophile enabler in Christian churches?
Morality is absolute...even for deities. There is no moral wiggle room for Jesus/Issa in not stopping pedophile abuse to thousands of innocent children in Christian churches.
Then you respond with...
"Oh, but other people in other religions do these atrocities too!"
If their purported deities don't stop that abuse from happening in those temples and churches, they they are not true gods either.
The only gods are gods of compassion. There are no others. If the compassion and moral responsibility is lacking, then it points to a false god.
It is as simple as that.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Interesting. The movie "Minority Report" gave us a very interesting look at this. Free will and intervention. When are you guilty of a wrong-doing? Once you think it? If you actually decide - "I'm going to do this..."? Or only when you actually did it? But then intervention would be too late. You want to stop something bad from happening before it happens, right? But how do you know it's going to happen? It's complex. It looks to me like we have a catch 22? You can't stop someone from doing something, because they didn't make that choice yet. Free will.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
And how do we know God didn't intervene in many other cases? No child was molested, because God stopped it from happening... Do we know that God stopped it from happening? No, we don't. Tree falling in the forest question, right? You point out that there is no interaction from God (the Christian God)... But how do we know that? What would this planet be like if God let it be?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
And as we agreed - you keep pointing to the molestation in Christian churches, when we both know that it happens everywhere. Many gods want human sacrifice (Satanism?)... What kind of god allows that?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Not only do they allow it, they want it from the worshippers. Then there's the well-known Muslims who blow themselves up for their god. What should we think of their god?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
We know better. We know that not all Muslims are American haters willing to kill themselves to go to heaven for "71 virgins"... Thinking that all Muslims are bad people would make you ignorant! Same goes for Christians that do bad things. These people you point your finger at are sexually deprived perverts. There were a carrot held in front of their noses. They made the choice. Bad choice. What does God do about them?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Nothing? A member asked earlier in the thread why we need to have a "hell". There's the answer. Do you want a pedophile who shamelessly abused kids in the church, walking next to you in heaven? No? So what do you do with them? You send them to hell. You think there's going to be a judgment day just for kicks? Humans are impatient. God is not. You want a bolt of lightning to strike the priest just before he molests a kid? I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. I don't make the rules.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
But it seems like you are making the rules...
Originally posted by Gemwolf
"The only gods are gods of compassion. There are no others. If the compassion and moral responsibility is lacking, then it points to a false god. "
OK. Is your god or gods, one (or many) of compassion? Where is he/they in all this tragedy, pain and sorrow we see all around us? Aren't you contradicting yourself? Wouldn't this mean that there is no god at all?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The "god" of the Old Testament was not The Original Creator. It was a large Group Entity of basically spiritual people or "angels" (at best) that combined their energies in order to manifest minor miracles.
The miracles found in Christianity are really no better than those found in the other traditional religions, like Hinduism for example. There is a swami in India that decades ago was referred to as "The Christ of India" because he could duplicate every miracles attributed to Jesus/Issa. I am referring to Sai Baba.
But he has abused his Gifts by being a sexual predator of young men and boys at his ashram for decades, among other atrocities committed. Consequently, the Group Entities he channeled have retrogressed from The Light and his Gifts of the Spirit have noticeably lessened with age.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Is that it? The Group Entities did nothing about Sai Baba for decades?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
And when they "punished" him, they merely "lessened" his gifts?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Is that what you want God to do to the people who molested kids in Christian Churches?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Is that what you expect a god to do - being moral and showing compassion?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
The question is, why? Why can't we live like angels, and be happy all our lives?
Indeed, that is exactly how we started out!
Although we once lived in Paradise where there was no suffering, we rebelled against God and were expelled. Now, thanks to Christ, we have a second chance for eternal happiness.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You really need to expect more of your deity.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
What more would you like me to expect?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
What is better than eternal life in a place so wonderful we could not possibly start to imagine it?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You are espousing the false hierarchy that has been orchestrated by many Group Entities throughout the centuries. The "god" of the Old Testament and the "god" of the New Testament were Group Entities, not The Original Creator.
Which is why the spiritual and metaphysical foundation in the Bible is fragmented and incomplete. The source of the information did not come from what you would term, God, but from discarnate collectives in the Mid and Lower Realms of Spirit.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Forgive me. I am "new" to your "way of believing" and I'm trying my best to see your point of view.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
But you make all these statements about spirits on different levels. What is it based on?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
It seems that you have a very spiritual view on God/god(s). Is there more to this believe than teachings from people? More to it than "logic" as everyone's logic works differently? It sounds very philisophical... Please explain your "proof" in plain words. (Keep in mind that I'm trying to understand your religion in a couple of minutes, while it takes years to "master" a religion - if it can in fact be achieved>)
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Sometimes it is good to be a rebel. It all depends on why.
As far as sex outside of marriage is concerned: the only time you should have sex at all is with love and with the focus of responsibility. If you have sex with love, in the eyes of The Light Of The God Force, you are already married, no matter what the governmental rules and the laws dictate.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
From what I gather you believe people should be celibate, is that right?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Why is sex such a bad thing?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Yes, I agree love should be the main reason for it... But why make it bad and dirty? Animals have sex all the time with other animals they've never met in their lives. Because we are "civilized" sex is now bad and a sin?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Does it stop us from being truly spiritual?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Yes, sex and lust is the downfall of many, many people - like those discussed above, but should all people - married or not be kept from sex because it's "bad?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
And when is love strong enough to justify sex - inside or outside of marriage? Will a simple crush do? Or does it have to be "true" love in the sense of "I'm willing to die for you"? How does a person in a certain situation decide what is lust and what is love?
(I know I'm wandering from the topic - but for a change I get to question your views on the religion, etc. topic! )
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
One can accurate state that I have had many children. I agree that there should be rules for them in order to guide them properly.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Hmm.. Technical. Explain?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Still on the point of children... How do you punish them? Every person has his/her own way of punishing, right? Do you hit kids before they do something wrong? Or do you only punish a kid after he did something wrong?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
You can warn him - "Don't do that" - but it's still up to him to do it or not. And he knows that he will get punished (if caught?) for doing it. No apply this reasoning to Christianity and free will.
Originally posted by Paul_RichardMany of the ideas in the Bible, as I alluded to earlier, are distorted. Yes, a spiritual life leads to eternal life, but not exactly the way that it is explained in traditional scripture.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Then in what way?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
The Bible - or any book - are open to personal interpretation. Let's do this:
"The cat is black and plays with a piece of string." What did you read? Am I talking of a real cat or a statue or a toy? What shade of black is it? What kind of cat is it? Now translate this in 200 different languages and versions of it in English.
The result: All the different Christian believes and sub-churches...
Yes, the Bible as we read it may not be pure-bred. That does not take the crux/essence away.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
I think you did a wonderful job with what you know.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Thanks again. Now we're getting somewhere, right? I do enjoy this much more than our original manner of "debating". I still haven't forgiven you for calling me a troll!
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Yes, it's been a good debate.
I am once again open to agree to disagree.
We could even call it a draw if you like.
Maybe I should have just suggested that you visit TheSocietyOfLight.com in the first place.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Bummer that his protection and guidance doesn't extend to the thousands of innocent children around the world who have been sexually assaulted -- and in some cases, raped -- by pedophile Christian priests, ministers, and nuns who preach in his name no less.
Okay...so maybe he is just practicing some kind of divine detachment in this case, if there even is such a thing. But that still makes him a pedophile enabler in his own churches.
Not a god at all in my estimation as well as that of many others.
Compassion dictates evolution, not Group Entity propaganda from the Mid and Lower Realms of Spirit
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
If someone is going to proclaim that Jesus is omnipotent and the only path to God then he or she better well provide us with ample evidence supportive of that belief as well as a clear explanation -- not a scriptural or theological dodge -- as to why Jesus is "compassion challenged" among his so-called "Body of Christ."
I find that Christians (and the Group Entities that they channel -- which empower the Jesus icon) avoid addressing this issue like a plague because they cannot come up with a decent rebuttal.
I completely understand if you don't have a good argument to offer to counter the idea that Jesus is a false god and that you wish to not make the attempt. I know that this issue is very frustrating to Christians and I don't find it surprising that you dodge the question.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Of course it's your last post on this issue!
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You have no cogent counterargument to offer us.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You should apologize -- for being a troll.
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
I have no respect for false gods and those who promote them without reason or a moral base.
Originally posted by Gemwolf
Isn't what you did against "The Golden Rule"? You don't want people being disrespectful towards your believes? You don't want them calling it a New Age cult - you'll be offended and you know that they'll be wrong?
Originally posted by Gemwolf
And a big focus of your believes is love (and compassion)... Shouldn't you talk to other people "with love" in order to convince them that their god is false? If you hatefully attack their "false god" then they'll hate you and won't think much of your religion? As much as the actions of pedophile priests reflects on Christianity, just as much does your actions reflect on your believes. Not true?
Originally posted by Paul_Richard
So what you see as disrespect, I and others view as a greatly needed service to The Light.