Originally posted by HALO77
Considering the power of Katrina(cat-5) and the resistance of the levee's(cat 2 or 3), why wasn't a major disaster plan already formulated for the day of this disaster? (it was inevitable)which leads to the next question....

I have heard from BUSH more than ten times that they had prepostioned supplies and troops. Where in the hell are they and why didnt the use them. I can only come to one conclusion.

How do you know they were not used?

Besides Jesse Jackson's typical ambulance chasing pandering or media hype, I fail to see why this is being spun as a 'They were Black so we will do nothing issue".

The failures were at every level from the Connonized Mayor (you go to sleep when a CAT5 is comming your way???? to the Governor, to FEMA to everybody. But not because these people were Black or poor

Originally posted by FredT


But not because these people were Black or poor

You dont know this is true, just like I dont know its not.

The supplies where not there, it was a lie. The first supplies where delivered yesterday. I have had the news on for 6 days now, much like everyone else, havent missed much.

[edit on 3-9-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Originally posted by FredT
How do you know they were not used?

Besides Jesse Jackson's typical ambulance chasing pandering or media hype, I fail to see why this is being spun as a 'They were Black so we will do nothing issue".

The failures were at every level from the Connonized Mayor (you go to sleep when a CAT5 is comming your way???? to the Governor, to FEMA to everybody. But not because these people were Black or poor

Well, if u look at Florida's hurricane of last year, there was a timely response, and swift exucution of relief efforts. Now why wouldnt there be the same thing if not more provided to New Orleans considering that this is far worse than the other disasters? The mayor's duty is to be there for the ones who didnt have a way to leave the city. I think he's a hell of a man for standing in the face of danger when he could've easily left his city without a voice. Survivors of the Tsunami were poor, but they got help quickly didnt they?(and thats in another country) Survivors of Katrina were poor as well,(and in this country) but help wasnt as quick, so ask urself, really ask urself, why is that?

I have a question: I saw an academian interviewed regarding NO's levee system, he was referred to as a Hurricane expert once (not sure of his exact field), he had done a complex study as to what would happen to NO in such as the current event, and had reccommendations/remediation ideas.

His first name was Ingvar or Igmar and I did not catch his last name. Spoke with a mild euro accent. So my question is: did anyone else see this guy and can you give me his last name? And/or some links to his work?

I saw this guy interviewed a few times; Again briefly last night. One of the comments he made in this interview was that he had presented his findings to a bunch of people in a meeting, and the army corps of engineers present 'were giggling in the back of the room' (apx.)

I would really appreciate any info anyone can find on this Professor/Researcher Ingvar .........
I would like to write to him.

(I myself was recently studying Environ Sci and had similar experiences with 'The Corps'. I gave up my studies in this area because no one really cares about the environment (as we have been shown with the NO debacle)) and there are slim few jobs in the field also. But perhaps now things will change. Perhaps I will resume my studies etc. If nothing else I would like to write this man a note of commiseration. Heck, I'm in Chicago and all my fellow students and Professors here KNEW this exact mess would happen in NO!!!)

Thanks in advance if someone can find this guy's exact name! Any info and links appreciated. If I find anything will put links here too as I feel this man's work is important and interesting.

Niki

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
The supplies where not there, it was a lie. The first supplies where delivered yesterday. I have had the news on for 6 days now, much like everyone else, havent missed much.

[edit on 3-9-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Do really think that they can preposition enough supplies to deal with a disaster on this magnatude ahead of time?

The whole thing of course not. I would expect there to be some suplies to last atleast one night at the superdome. That is where they told people to go. Not one night did they have supplies for, and they expected 20 thousand people.

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
That is where they told people to go. Not one night did they have supplies for, and they expected 20 thousand people.

And who is the 'they" that told them to go to the Superdome?

I want to make my position clear as I have in other threads. THis whole tragedy was a debacle from top to bottom. But, I see a pattern of blame emerging "because they were poor" or because they were "black" and the like and it bothers me greatly. The mayor of NO is being put forth as a hero when in reality he was caught with his pants down. If the levy was that important why did he go to sleep? Why didnt he make sure his poor constiuents had a way out? As was the LA governor, and FEMA and everybody else.

The supplies that were pre-positioned were either used up quickly or destroyed in the storm. There are pictures of Red Cross ambulances under water.

The Red Cross refused to go into NO when the violence started.

Mayor Nagin evacuated to Baton Rouge Sunday night.

In my opinion Nagin either:

1. Didn't think NO would get hit by the storm and thought everyone could walk home from the Superdome the next day.

2. Didn't have any plans for the people and the city after the storm, assuming the federal government would rush in and save him and his people.

FEMA didn't expect there to be violence after the storm passed and that threw a wrench into all their planning.

The loss of communications crippled any rescue/relief efforts.

FEMA pre-staged equipment when Bush declared a State of Emergency Friday but the Governor of LA didn't request any assistance so it had to sit and wait. FEMA can't force aid/eqipment/etc on the states, they have to request it.


I don't think any one person is responsible for this. It is a mix of poor planning and communications from the Mayor and Gov, poor planning from FEMA, the hubris of the people in NOLA who thought NOLA couldn't be hit by a hurricane after all the near misses the past few decades, and the sheer magnitude of the disaster.

[edit on 3-9-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Do really think that they can preposition enough supplies to deal with a disaster on this magnatude ahead of time?


The answer to ur question is yes. Reason being that it has been known for years now that a storm of katrina's magnitude would devastate New Orleans considering the state of the levee system. Now in knowing that and knowing that a Cat-5 storm had the possibility of hitting N.O., there was more than enough time to prepare for the aftermath of the storm, so there is no excuse for these poor "relief efforts". Like the old saying goes "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" which is the exact case in this scenario.

You people expect to much. On 9/11 it was only 2 buildings, on a bright sunny day. There wasnt miles of water to deal with. Also to note....the people fleeing the city....not so in NO.

Also to note: way to go black community. blame everyone else, but your own. Dont blame the black mayor, or the black elected officials, blame the white president. And act like its being done on purpose.

If these animals would have stayed put, NOT shot at helicpoters and cops, order could have restored faster. While the flooding isnt their fault, the long wait for help is almost certainly is.

The media is so persuasive on so many of u people!lol You watch the t.v. screen and take it all in as truth. The media has tried so hard to shift the blame on the mayor and has tried to get that response to almost everybody that they've interviewed on t.v., but people aint buyin that crap! Bottom line is the Government cut funds for better levee's, they knew this would happen eventually, they obviously weren't concerned for the safety of N.O.(for whatever reasons, and i can name a few), they further showed their non-concern with their response time to the situation, and cluelessness as to how to handle the situation swiftly and accurately. It is a disgrace to this country and its citizens, and the world is watching all of it unfold. This was disaster waiting to happen and the worst part of it all is that they knew about(again) and did nothing to prevent it.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
That is where they told people to go. Not one night did they have supplies for, and they expected 20 thousand people.

And who is the 'they" that told them to go to the Superdome?

I want to make my position clear as I have in other threads. THis whole tragedy was a debacle from top to bottom. But, I see a pattern of blame emerging "because they were poor" or because they were "black" and the like and it bothers me greatly. The mayor of NO is being put forth as a hero when in reality he was caught with his pants down. If the levy was that important why did he go to sleep? Why didnt he make sure his poor constiuents had a way out? As was the LA governor, and FEMA and everybody else.

The mayor told them to go there. Not sure what more the mayor could have done, he did tell everyone that this was going to be a big storm, he told everyone to leave. He called for marshal law, to this day 4 to 5 hundrend of the NO pd has turned in thier badges.

Alot of the people wouldnt leave regardless what was said, some stayed just to loot. And Some COULD NOT leave. I agree it was a debacle by all. I honestly feel the supllies where not rush in as fast as if it was other places.

[edit on 3-9-2005 by SpittinCobra]

[edit on 3-9-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Originally posted by HALO77
Why are people trying to blame Ray Nagin(mayor of N.O.)? He advised the city on the dangers of Katrina.

I blame the mayor because of all the taxes collected from the casinos ($2.5 billion annually). What was he doing with all of this extra tax revenue?

Every city cannot expect the federal government to come and fix all of their problems. When the casinos moved in, the extra tax revenues should have been diverted to reinforcing the levees. If the mayor was not willing to do that, then how can expect the federal government to do it?

Obviously, the mayor didn't think it was a high priority. And how can the federal or State government think it is a priority when the mayor doesn't think it is a priority?

[edit on 9/3/05 by Qwas]

Originally posted by spliff4020
You people expect to much. On 9/11 it was only 2 buildings, on a bright sunny day. There wasnt miles of water to deal with. Also to note....the people fleeing the city....not so in NO.

Also to note: way to go black community. blame everyone else, but your own. Dont blame the black mayor, or the black elected officials, blame the white president. And act like its being done on purpose.

If these animals would have stayed put, NOT shot at helicpoters and cops, order could have restored faster. While the flooding isnt their fault, the long wait for help is almost certainly is.

1. I agree with u that this disaster is of larger proportions than 9/11, but that doesnt excuse the fact that our government knew what could happen but still cut funding to build better levee's.

2. U began to show a hint of ignorance with the "Also to note" statement, but facts are facts and i stated before "The government knew what could happen but still cut funding to build better levee's" so who's to blame when the mayor/governor cant come out of their pockets to pay for a better levee system?

3. These "animals" that u refered to were mostly people trying to get the bare necessities for survival(food,water,clothing). The media used the term "looters" which may be the proper word, but not for people trying to survive. As far as the ignorants running around gettin t.v.'s and jewelry, thats a different story, cuz they are taking advantage of a serious situation and in my opinion, should've been shot. The amount of people "looting" was a small group compared to people who were actually trying to SURVIVE and the media took yet another opportunity to futher press the stereotypical image of Blacks being "animals" How in the hell could an army that goes to the MIDDLE EAST with SUICIDE BOMBERS, and WELL ARMED be afraid of people? Or is it cuz they are Black People? U tell me?

I blame the mayor because of all the taxes collected from the casinos ($2.5 billion annually). What was he doing with all of this extra tax revenue?

Every city cannot expect the federal government to come and fix all of their problems. When the casinos moved in, the extra tax revenues should have been diverted to reinforcing the levees. If the mayor was not willing to do that, then how can expect the federal government to do it?

Obviously, the mayor didn't think it was a high priority. And how can the federal or State government think it is a priority when the mayor doesn't think it is a priority?

[edit on 9/3/05 by Qwas]

It just isn't as simple as taking those casnio taxes and just moving them over to the levee project. If it were that simple then many cities in America with casino's wouldnt have half the problems they have. Right or Wrong? We're not talking about something like taking the money u were gonna use as a downpayment on a house and deciding to buy a new car or something. Government funding on the levee project was cut in spite of potential danger in the future. So the question to ask is why would they do that knowing that thousands if not more could die?

I dont think they were afraid, but rather a tad reluctant to begin shooting their own citizens. And as it was stated above, why not use the casino money??? Hmmmm....why not own up to your responsibilty?

Also, there was NO WAY TO GET HELP IN THERE!!!! Noone seems to get it. You cant drive boats up in there. Whats under the water? Cars, telephone poles, roofs, bodies...all that crap. Add to that, getting shot at, and haveing to shoot back...well.....you just gotta pull back and wait. 4 days no food and weakness sets in. People might be more likely to do what theyre told.

Originally posted by HALO77
Bottom line is the Government cut funds for better levee's, they knew this would happen eventually, they obviously weren't concerned for the safety of N.O.(for whatever reasons, and i can name a few), they further showed their non-concern with their response time to the situation, and cluelessness as to how to handle the situation swiftly and accurately. It is a disgrace to this country and its citizens, and the world is watching all of it unfold. This was disaster waiting to happen and the worst part of it all is that they knew about(again) and did nothing to prevent it.

When you say Government, I hope you are referring to local and state government, and not the Feds.

The Commander of the Army Corps of Engineers, Lt. General Carl Strock, dismissed several rumors on CSPAN yesterday. Rumors such as the one saying that the war in Iraq weakened our ability to deal with natural disasters.. Or that funds were siphoned off the levee project by the Feds. Watch CSPAN; they are sure to do a rerun of that session.

NOLA received funds and chose to build new casinos and docks for tourists, instead of strenghtening the levees. FYI, NOLA has one of the most corrupt governments in the nation. They make Cook County , Ill., look like a Boys Club in comparison, according to one politician whose name I didn't catch.