Is the Raptor capable of this...

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
OK, I know that you all think that the Raptor is a very good plane, I think so too... But to believe that it's unvinsible is too much... Ok, nobody has said it, but you can read it between the lines... So in my opinion we shoul wait untill it gets into service, and then we can say if it's unwinsible or not...

Oh dont worry, with various people on this forum saying its unbeatable, unmatchable and invincable, all its doing is possibly setting them up for a big shock.

Nicely said... I'am not hoping bad for the Raptor... I just don't like it when poples try to prove something good that isn't even in use yet...

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Figher Master FIN]

Originally posted by RichardPrice
Oh dont worry, with various people on this forum saying its unbeatable, unmatchable and invincable, all its doing is possibly setting them up for a big shock.

Kinda like the "big shock" Airbus is experiencing with Boeing, RichardPrice?

Anyhow, back to the program, please let some of us know who in this topic thread has insinuated that the Raptor is "unbeatable and invincable", k?

You notice I left out "unmatchable"? Why? Because despite you thinking your busting on those who hold the Raptor so dear to their hearts, the mere factoid is that the Raptor remains unmatched for a fighter of its type, and despite you wishing to contest otherwise, there currently is no other fighter in the world that can remotely compare, when applied to the Raptor's all-around abilities and characteristics. The "big shock" will come when it proves it in future air exercises and missions to you nay-sayers. Let some of those simulated programs by DERA, etc be your guide, k? When the Raptor has a kill rate of 10:1 versus Su-35 and the Eurofighter having a 4.5:1 versus the SU-35, even with simulation errors, the Raptor is indeed currently unmatched.
Britain's DERA, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency
Five Eagles In Three Minutes
F-22 Pilot Perspective




seekerof

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN

Nicely said... I'am not hoping bad for the Raptor... I just don't like it when poples try to prove something good that isn't even in use yet...

FIN, please remove the foot from your mouth.
The Raptor is in use and continues to be produced and deployed. There are over 55+ Raptors in the USAF today.



seekerof

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof

Kinda like the "big shock" Airbus is experiencing with Boeing, RichardPrice?

I dont see any "big shock" that Airbus is currently undergoing. Having the largest number of new orders, the most aircraft delivered per year for at least the past 3 years, and evidence to support a credible WTO claim against Boeing to counter the one the US has made, I dont see any "big shock" on the horizon.

Anyhow, back to the program, please let some of us know who in this topic thread has insinuated that the Raptor is "unbeatable and invincable", k?

I didnt say 'in this topic thread', I said 'on this forum'. Go back and read every F-22 Raptor thread, you will see a reoccuring theme which is where I get those points from. You simply arent allowed to say anything negative about the aircraft, and Im sorry but that is just playing to your egos and setting you up for a big fall. Im not saying that the F-22 will fail, or anything as simple as that, Im saying that the idea that the F-22 is perfect and all powerful, unbeatable and godlike (which is the sense you get from reading F-22 threads on this forum in particular) is luring yourselves into a false sense of security and domination and its all coming out of the fanboi following of planes on this forum. Yes, its currently unmatched, but I said unmatchABLE. Thats another reoccuring theme, that the F-22 will dominate forever, and thats not a viewpoint I subscribe to.

There are people on this forum that latch onto an aircraft or country or company and from that point on wont allow any other poster to make a negative comment or give their own views on that subject. Ive had better, more informed and much more reasonable discussions on other forums Im sorry to say, and all because theres a huge fanboy following here.

And your own post does nothing but reinforce my viewpoint and infact the entire point of my post.

Ban me, censor me, do what you like, I dont care anymore. If you dont like my views and my reasoning then fair enough, but if you dont let me have them then I have better people to talk to than you.

Originally posted by RichardPrice
I didnt say 'in this topic thread', I said 'on this forum'. Go back and read every F-22 Raptor thread, you will see a reoccuring theme which is where I get those points from. You simply arent allowed to say anything negative about the aircraft, and Im sorry but that is just playing to your egos and setting you up for a big fall. Im not saying that the F-22 will fail, or anything as simple as that, Im saying that the idea that the F-22 is perfect and all powerful, unbeatable and godlike (which is the sense you get from reading F-22 threads on this forum in particular) is luring yourselves into a false sense of security and domination and its all coming out of the fanboi following of planes on this forum. Yes, its currently unmatched, but I said unmatchABLE. Thats another reoccuring theme, that the F-22 will dominate forever, and thats not a viewpoint I subscribe to.

Seems to me that is your take and your perspective on how you percieve such. IMHO, if it bothers you so, then either contest to the contrary or not respond to such threads by simply ignoring them.

There are people on this forum that latch onto an aircraft or country or company and from that point on wont allow any other poster to make a negative comment or give their own views on that subject.

You mean like yourself when it comes to Airbus, etc.?

Ive had better, more informed and much more reasonable discussions on other forums Im sorry to say, and all because theres a huge fanboy following here.

As I have., but you don't hear or read me making such comparisons or remarks. Here's my take again, if it bothers you so, then find a more pleasing board that suits your discussion levels and aspirations, maybe?

And your own post does nothing but reinforce my viewpoint and infact the entire point of my post.

No, my post simply contradicts yours by showing that the Raptor is more than you crack it up to be.

Ban me, censor me, do what you like, I dont care anymore. If you dont like my views and my reasoning then fair enough, but if you dont let me have them then I have better people to talk to than you.

Tissue?




seekerof

Firstly, I restrict my Airbus postings to countering idiotic rhetoric posted by others. Have you ever seen me post anything negative about Boeing that wasnt a counter of an anti Airbus post? No.

I think I will take your advice, Im leaving for pastures new. As I said, I already frequent other forums where there isnt this 'Pro US, Anti everything else' fanboi following that there seems to be on this board (Aircraft Projects in particular, I havent really seen this in the other forums) and I really only come here because there are some people who actually have sensible and grounded opinions, views and postings (Waynos and FredT, thanks for a good time, there are others but I havent the time to single you all out).

If anyone wants to get hold of me, [email protected].

i wonder if the raptor can beat the 40 year old RAF Lightning`s world record

0 > 50,000 feet in under 1 minute..... and has a ceiling of over 88,000ft (it intercepted a U-2 at that altitude in 1984 during an exercise)


now thats fast

The Lightning's initial rate of climb was 50,000 ft per minute.
Compare that to the Mirage 111 which could climb at 30,000 ft per minute
the F-4 Phantom did 32,000 ft per minute
the MiG-21 managed to go 36,090 ft per minute
the rate of the F-16 was 40,000 ft per minute
and the Tornado can climb at 43,000 ft per minute

The Lightning held that record for a long time and initially beat out the F-15 - although supposedly the F-15 and Mig -25 were finally able to beat the Lightning's world record. I do not have data on that, just some Lightning enthusiast web page.

Seeing how the F-22 Raptor is known to climb from the deck in the supersonic regime, I doubt that the Lightning has it beat. I am certainly open to enlightenment on the subject, I sure don't want anyone to think I am a Raptor "fanboy".. or girl as it were...

From what I've heard from a couple of Eagle drivers (obviously not all F-15 jocks would do it this way), in order to climb supersonic, they take off in the F-15, climb to around 20,000 ft and then go into a slight dive to achieve Mach 1+ and then go back into the climb in the supersonic regime. This is apparently quicker than staying on the deck and hitting Mach 1, then climbing.

Also I understand from both Eagle and Falcon pilots who have run chase for Raptors, that the Raptor walks away from them whether in a climb, level flight or whatever.

It must be hell for a pilot to retire and go from flying a fighter to flying an Airbus for Federal Express.

From the `thrill` of throwing around ANYTHING in the sky , to being a monkey who throws a switch must be boring - the money is good


as for the lightning - you really must try and track down the video (i saw about 15 years ago) , it showed how the lightning gets to 50k ft - take off roll - nose up verticle and go , straight up , mach busting on the way.

yeah, possible... sorry I didn''t know...

Originally posted by Harlequin

as for the lightning - you really must try and track down the video (i saw about 15 years ago) , it showed how the lightning gets to 50k ft - take off roll - nose up verticle and go , straight up , mach busting on the way.

Admittedly, I knew next to nothing about the "Lightning" before today.
It sounds like it represented a milestone in fighter engineering for it's time.
Thanks for bringing it to light...
Natalie~

Its from the same generation as the F-104 - you know , glue some wings on a massive engine and strap a seat to the front

and thats about it.......

stealth characteristics of a mississippi mud pie - but damn some serious speed to it!!


Did you know , its still the only plane to be able to achieve a stern intercept on Concord (other than the mig-25/31 which was never tested) with a war load - it litterally ran away from the F-4 (both RAF and USAF) F-15 , F-16 and Tornado F-1 and caught up with Concord crusing at M2.25

The EE Lightning was an amazing aircraft, some great reference material can be found here: Thunder and Lightning's: English Electric Lightning

[edit on 8/3/05 by xmotex]

RichardPrice, the supercruiser speed of the "proto" f22 was M1.58, that is in clean test configuration, an supercruiser of M2 is only a stupid speculation, all that come from a report for a tv show!!!!, but the pleople when see or read that just dont care....because they want believe what they whish

the f22 is very public, all the max speed of the all planes are classified information, but again these speeds aren the max operative, are more like the f86 supersonic dive flight

the f22 isnt a top secret plane, not like the f117 was, again the raptor lovers say "its classified", but only to avoid the reality

Originally posted by grunt2
the f22 isnt a top secret plane, not like the f117 was, again the raptor lovers say "its classified", but only to avoid the reality

Yes, I agree... The RAptor isn't as secret as the nighthawk once was... For instance, the F-117 was tested in Area-51 and the F-22 in ordinary bases.. And there are many, I say again, many videos about the Roptor, (official) but when the nighthawk was new... 1970 no videos or articles were written of it...

RichardPrice, there are fanboys for everything, but I think you just mistake a lot of people saying that the F/A-22 could probably take on any fighter out there and destroy it as fanboyism (as that has pretty much been shown to be true). There is no evidence saying that the F/A-22 is the end-all be-all of aircraft, and that it can never be surpassed. People just say there is nothing else out there right now that surpasses it.

Fanboyism is saying that the Playstation 2 would go unmatched for years, or the absolute REFUSAL to acknowledge other things that are better. But the fact is that the F/A-22 is a very very good plane and probably the best fighter plane out there right now.

Another thing to remember about a lot of U.S. weapons (when I say weapons, I mean anything from subs to tanks to aircraft) is that a lot of them were laughed at initially.

The F-15 (or the F-16; I forget), was laughed at and some even said it would be a complete waste of money, a crap plane that wouldn't match the current U.S. Air force planes out there.

When AWACS aircraft were being developed, the Wall Street Journal (around 1980 or so) ran an article saying about what a waste of money these big jets were (now the only problem is they don't have enough AWACS).

When the M-1 Abrams battle tank came out, critics scoffed and laughed at it. A battle tank with "reactive armor!?" Yada yada, it was laughed at too, because people who were proponents of the tank said the Soviets and most the rest of the world had no tank that could match it. The British and German Leopard tanks are a match I'm sure, but the point is the tank was revolutionary at the time and still is among the best tanks out there.

The AH-64 Apache, a helicopter that was critisized a good deal.

Most of these weapons systems are now considered a huge necessity by the U.S. military. It was their use in the Gulf War that finally shut a lot of people up, because they proved very useful (and were needed greatly).

I think the future will show that the F/A-22 is needed a lot too. One thing about the F/A-22 to remember also is its stealth capabilities. Now remember, as Intelgurl and some others have said before, stealth doesn't equate to the plane being completely invisible, it just means it is far harder to detect when the right variables are put into place.

Well many countries are now buying anti-aircraft systems, so fighter planes aren't designed these days just to fight other planes, they also must be able to get through enemy aircraft systems undetected so they won't be shot down.

The F/A-22 has proven itself very capable of shooting down other planes, but also very capable of going into areas that theoretically would get planes like an F-15 or an F-16 shot down. This could prove very valuable in future conflicts or wars I am sure.

One never knows what kind of future things the U.S. military will have to face.

The fact that the U.S. has created such an aircraft inspires pride. Remember, countries each are known for their many things; well, one thing America is known for is aircraft. America makes great aircraft of all types, everything from great attack helicopters to great jumbo jets to great fighter planes, to great stealth aircraft, etc....France and Russia make great aircraft too, but no single country except the U.S. makes all of the above and does it well.

Aircraft are a thing Americans are proud of, as they are a symbol of engineering and technical excellence, and so forth. So an aircraft like the F/A-22 inspires pride. People don't claim it be invincible or that it will never be matched or anything like that. I am sure designs that are far improved on the Raptor are already somewhat done right now, just they have yet to build and start the long testing phase for these new aircraft, etc....

What people don't like is when others come on saying, "Yeah yeah, you're blowing too much smoke, the F/A-22 isn't all THAT great, it is just a small improvement, yada yada...." well people refute that, but then people take that refuting as fanboyism.

And I don't know what you mean by "pro-Americanism" on these boards. These boards have a lot of anti-Americanism from what I have seen.

EngineMan2145m, there are extremes and extremes, the f15, f16, M1 -i dont know about the AWACS- arent perfect machines, all eagle, falcon, abraams, first versions werent sooo greate, and current versions are good, but they arent the "best", because other planes and tanks are comparable, better in some aspects and worst in others, btw fanboys love to compare the M1s late 90s armor with 80s armour tanks

there are loooots of fanboys that only have pics , posters or fanbooks of their favorite plane, but dont know even basic laws of how works, again the f22 is a greate replacement of the f15, but isnt the 8th world wonder

[edit on 3-8-2005 by grunt2]

Originally posted by RichardPrice
Firstly, I restrict my Airbus postings to countering idiotic rhetoric posted by others. Have you ever seen me post anything negative about Boeing that wasnt a counter of an anti Airbus post? No.

I think I will take your advice, Im leaving for pastures new. As I said, I already frequent other forums where there isnt this 'Pro US, Anti everything else' fanboi following that there seems to be on this board (Aircraft Projects in particular, I havent really seen this in the other forums) and I really only come here because there are some people who actually have sensible and grounded opinions, views and postings (Waynos and FredT, thanks for a good time, there are others but I havent the time to single you all out).

If anyone wants to get hold of me, [email protected].

Oh come on....dont leave the forum for such small reasons and just because someone asked you to ... think it over again ... not everyone here is paranoid about the F-22. check these out >>

www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1455675
www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1455423
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1450351
www.abovetopsecret.com...


come on think it over...dont turn your back now after 780 posts and spending almost a year here .... and besides add those people to your ignore list .... you can stay here and simentaneously participate in this place .... please

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by RichardPrice
Firstly, I restrict my Airbus postings to countering idiotic rhetoric posted by others. Have you ever seen me post anything negative about Boeing that wasnt a counter of an anti Airbus post? No.

I think I will take your advice, Im leaving for pastures new. As I said, I already frequent other forums where there isnt this 'Pro US, Anti everything else' fanboi following that there seems to be on this board (Aircraft Projects in particular, I havent really seen this in the other forums) and I really only come here because there are some people who actually have sensible and grounded opinions, views and postings (Waynos and FredT, thanks for a good time, there are others but I havent the time to single you all out).

If anyone wants to get hold of me, [email protected].

Well i understand you, this site is very american. However you shouldn't leave. I don't know you personally nor trough the internet, but it is always sad when a member dec ides not to continue...