Free Masons. Good or Evil?

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by KsigMason
It's absurd to claim only the greedy is concerned with it's image. Because we are fighting back against your lies doesn't make us bad. Yes, we're trying to fix our image after decades, centuries of defamation.

For who may I ask?
For who are you trying to fix all that?

For current and future Masons. Passively trying to weather obsessive slander has only served to embolden anti-Masons and allow questions to go unaddressed in the minds of those who previously had no opinion about Masonry. And the irony is that if we address known (and often previously-debunked) falsehoods, we're accused of spreading 'disinformation' or worse, being out-of-the-loop ourselves because we somehow don't conform to the antagonistic anti-Mason's idea of who should be 'in the know' (even when the anti-Masons can't explain how they would come to be in possession of such damning knowledge where Masons can't or haven't).

Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Can't you see it's an ilogical answer ?

A) for your selfs?
B) for people like me?
C) for people that don't care?

The rest of categories called others are a minority, very few in numbers.

This is Ksig's quote which you didn't include in your response

Originally posted by KsigMason
I was addressing those who defame the group without any real knowledge.

Ksig's point is goes directly to heart of the vast majority of anti-Mason screeds. This is by far the majority, not a "minority, very few in numbers" as you would have a casual reader believe

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by KsigMason
What is there to be exposed? We are not a secret society, we are a private society with secrets. Of all the allegations throughout time, there has yet to be any wrongdoing proven.

A private society with secrets is a secret sociaty.
A scecret society is not about just evil or good.
Seen from a neutral point oif view it's a society that is private
and has it's secrets. To have access you have to become a member and take a pledge, and that is the term for a secret society.

Then, if Masonry is so secret, how is it that it's so widely known of and it's rituals publicly available (though not in an authorised manner) for nearly three centuries? As for your second point, the problem is that anti-Masons have been allowed to frame privacy as bad at least insofar as Masonry is at issue. From a neutral point of view, the privacy of Masonry vs. the privacy of any other group or corporation is neither unreasonable nor unusual (even though it's viewed as such).

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by KsigMason
It has everything to do with good work. We strive to help the community, but somehow it gets twisted by liars to be viewed as a misdeed. That affects our image.

Everytime you state we do good work you incriminate your self more and more. People that really do good things don't brag about it, because they have no intrest. Madona or Angelina Joly will help kids in africa and then brag abot that because it's a publcity stunt.An intrest.

Balancing an unbalanced counterview is not incrimination and in fact, is meant to remind people of the good at the centre of Masonry (especially in a forum predisposed to believe quite the opposite). In fact, part of the Masonic ritual is aimed directly at reminding Masons to do exactly what it is that you propose. To whit, do the good that needs doing in your community because it needs doing and then fade into the background once done. The recognition that matters is not to be had in this life.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by KsigMason
What are you expecting to find when "you take us apart"? What wrongs have the Freemasons supposedly done?

Just little social things that are upside down

Pour example?

Originally posted by pepsi78
Freemasonry is good for free masons, evil for others, and ok for some.
I meet a freemason in person, he tried to convince me of how good the fremasonry is. In stead of giving him my version and what I think of it I thought I'll change a bit my aproch and ask him something else.
So I told him, why do you waste your time to try to convince me otherwise. Why is it so important to you? He did not have an imidiate answer but he responded after a while that it's for the image of the fraternity. So my logic dictated to me that I ask why does it? Who cares how masonry is seen?

If you came out and said that freemasonry meetings are boring, and the rituals seem a bit weird, that would be a good start to a conversation. I would agree that a business meeting with nothing else is boring and I could have spent that time better. Bit I also understand it has to be done. I would have tried to explain that the rituals all have a meaning and if you pay attention to them, you will learn a bunch.

But if you say Freemasons sacrifice little children and worship Lucifer or Satan, then I would want to make sure that you understood the truth and not a lie. Much like if someone claimed bad things that were untrue about your family. You would defend the honor of you wife, or mother would you not? I don't care what YOU think about masonry because your mind is made up and cannot be changed. But for the ones who don't know either way and search for information about masonry, I would prefer they learned the truth and not some made up fantasy about devil worship.

Originally posted by pepsi78
In this world there is few people with good intentions, the rest of the world is just based on intrest. This is the point I wanted to get to.
It's why it's so irelevant that masonry try to fix things for this issue.

I'm sorry you have such a poor view of mankind. Agreed, many is the selfish individual who'll only do things out of fear but they're the minority (whether you accept that or not).

Originally posted by pepsi78
This hocus pocus stuff ...for the good of others, and good stuff for the benefit of the handicap or disfavored is just a smoke screen.

ORLLY? Care to expound up why that should be in your opinion?

Originally posted by pepsi78
The more you say it the more it incriminates you, because people are just like you, they are people. Who is going to take you serios I wonder.

Again with unsubstantiated "incrimination". And quite clearly you take Masons seriously enough to be antagonistic to them. Why's that I wonder?

Originally posted by pepsi78
Further more your argument in contradiction.
I herd endless time masons saying, we don't care what others think or ignorance is a bliss, let the mass doom it';s self.

Care to enlighten on where a Mason has said "ignorance is a bliss, let the mass doom it';s self"? Rather un-Masonic in my experience.

Originally posted by pepsi78
So I take it it's not for the image, you could care less, it's for defence, for anti-exposure. If things like this keep going on soon masonry willl become poitless and one small branch will colapse out of many.

It isn't for the image, it's for reality. Doing for others who can't do for themselves. It's charity; a notion no limited to Masons by any stretch of the imagination. Don't buy it? Your loss. Again, I'm just sorry you have such a poor opinion of mankind in general. My experience is at odds with what yours seems to have been.

reply to post by pepsi78

Having secrets doesn't constitute a secret society. A secret society hides it's meeting locations and you don't know their membership. The government has secrets, are they a secret society?

Letting the world know that we are here to help is a bad thing? If all they hear is liars defaming us and nothing from us, what are they going to think? Think McFly. Why should we sit idly by when lies are being spread about us?

Just little social things that are upside down

Such as?

In this world there is few people with good intentions, the rest of the world is just based on intrest.

So sayeth the pessimist.

This hocus pocus stuff ...for the good of others, and good stuff for the benefit of the handicap or disfavored is just a smoke screen.

Is it really that hard for you to believe that charity exists? You should really read 1 Corinthians 13:1 + 13

If things like this keep going on soon masonry willl become poitless and one small branch will colapse out of many.

Well, through the evil report as well as good Freemasonry has withstood. Freemasonry will go as it has from it's beginning.

reply to post by SlayerRock

So I'm a figment of the imagination? I'm not really going to a weekly meeting?

To the mods, please allow this to be posted. I have to see this.

reply to post by SlayerRock


boo!

//SlayerRock runs away screaming like a little girl as the ghost of masons past scare him.//

muhahahahah!

Originally posted by SlayerRock
my post was NOT off topic. i was just telling people that freemasons are not good or evil because they dont exist.

Please go into more detail.
'Cause I pass by this building everyday on my way to work and the book store. Hate to think I'm just imagining it.

Originally posted by RuneSpider- 'Cause I pass by this building everyday on my way to work and the book store. Hate to think I'm just imagining it.

Ouch. From the looks of their officer line, almost all of the seats are Past Masters. That lodge is in SERIOUS need of new members. Sad, really.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Their parking lot tends to be fairly full when I pass by, I'd guess they have at least 10 or fifteen members there. No one under 35 would be my guess.
Have to admit, it might have affected my decision on petitioning.

reply to post by RuneSpider


My lodge has 7 guys under 35. Some lodges don't have any guys under 50. Remember that if you join, you can choose the lodge that you want to join. If you tell the guys you're looking for a young lodge, they'll put you in touch with the right lodge.

I remember a guy who was in the military who petitioned our lodge to become a mason. When we asked him what he wanted out of masonry, he said he enjoyed the discipline that goes with strict ritual, and said he wanted a lodge where the ritual is done word-perfect. Since our lodge is a young lodge, and quite experimental and 'modern', we knew we would not be the right lodge for him, and so we put him in touch with a lodge famous for its strictness, and he's really happy there.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that any concerns you have, and all the thing you're looking for in Masonry should be brought up in your interview. Many guys don't realize that the interview is not only to find out whether you're a suitable candidate for freemasonry, but also to ensure that you get out of Freemasonry what you want.

You shouldn't let things affect your decision until you've discussed your concerns with a Mason first. Your wishes will definitely be accommodated.

reply to post by Saurus


I'd worked at a job for about eleven years at that point, where every person there was much older than I was. I've chatted with Mr. Lowndes, the current Worshipful Master of the Lodge, and checked the Lodge that's in Pace here, which has about the same membership as the one in Milton.
I finally decided that karate felt more right for me at this point than Masonry.
Personally speaking, I've gotten a lot out of karate, a pretty good deal I wouldn't have gotten at a Lodge. There's something to be said about hanging out with folks your own age.
I did promise to do a personal investigation of a Lodge at some point, so i do plan on putting in my application at a later date.

What with my job, my (however limited) social life, and plans on further education, my time is a very limited commodity.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Not to mention that their Junior Warden and Junior Stewart must be brothers.


Just kidding!

But seriously, the officer line could sure use some younger blood.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by Fitzgibbon]

Originally posted by Saurus
. Remember that if you join, you can choose the lodge that you want to join. If you tell the guys you're looking for a young lodge, they'll put you in touch with the right lodge.

This is not always the case. Many jurisdictions, including my own, require potential candidates to petition the Lodge nearest their place of residence.

I remember a guy who was in the military who petitioned our lodge to become a mason. When we asked him what he wanted out of masonry, he said he enjoyed the discipline that goes with strict ritual, and said he wanted a lodge where the ritual is done word-perfect.

That's really odd. I don't understand why a non-Mason would say such a thing. How would he be able to compare competent ritualists to incompetent ones if he'd never seen any?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
That's really odd. I don't understand why a non-Mason would say such a thing. How would he be able to compare competent ritualists to incompetent ones if he'd never seen any?

Well, it was pretty much a case of him saying he really liked discipline, and then our WM explained to him that some guys are better ritualists than others, and that sometimes guys do mess up, and after a bit of chatting, he said that if he had a choice, he would rather belong to a more disciplined lodge.

It was more the idea of discipline than the actual ritual that he wanted, so we put him in touch with a lodge that prides itself on flawless ritual (which, by the way, I don't necessarily think is a good thing, because you always end up with the same guys doing the same piece of work, which for me defeats the idea of masonry.)

When I say our lodge is experimental, what I mean is that at every working, we cycle the pieces of ritual between the brethren, so that everyone gets a chance to do everything over the period of a year or two. So if somebody gets the 1st degree charge, for example, with only a month to prepare, there are often many mistakes.

We just didn't feel he would fit in to our lodge, but knew he would be right at home at the other.


[edit on 12/6/2009 by Saurus]

Since we are talking about ritual work, let me tell you something....that 1st degree lecture (what i am learning right now) is one tough cookie lol The staircase lecture wasn't too bad but this one is huge!

reply to post by bushidomason


It was the first piece I ever learned! 14 pages in the emulation ritual book!

The 1st degree lecture really does teach the EA everything they need to know after joining. It's such a pity UGLE doesn't include that piece in the 1st degree ceremony. (In Emulation lodges, it's usually only done on an evening where there is no working.)

[edit on 12/6/2009 by Saurus]

reply to post by bushidomason

See I'm the opposite. I found the 1st degree much easier to learn than the Stairs. I like the 1st and the 3rd the most.

My lodge is so evil that last week we presented the widows of deceased members with corsages, then served fresh strawberries, cake, and ice cream. I'm still apalled by this. The ice cream was good.