Why are there so many non-believers?

You take the fun out of everything. If you look at proof that way then the word shouldn't even exist. There is no proof of aliens like there is no proof of anyone but oneself existing. If you say it can't be proven that anyone but you exists, not only is it extremely prideful of you but is also ridiculous.

There is proof, if you are willing to believe.

Well, the thing is that at the end of the day, people are more perceptive to things that are commonly accepted as truth, commonly accepted as the "ruling" idea of society.

Let's have a quick look at books such as the bible, or the history of religion. Religions have always been used to pressurise ideas upon others. Certain dates, certain festivities, certain names have been changed, have been written into different context etc. just as the church saw fit. If you did not comply you died, you were branded a witch, a follower of the devil and whatever else. There was no choice but to accept and eventually it has been accepted.

That as an example. I'm not saying that the Bible doesn't describe true stories to a certain extend, but I do believe that these stories have been made into something more than they were. No one can say for sure that everything our history is based on has actually happened just the way it did. Usually the victorious party writes the books if you get what I mean.

There were a few things said here I find quite interesing.

For a start, I find it intriguing that when we really mean alien lifeforms we speak about UFOs. A UFO can indeed be anything, like a new, not really publicly known or experimental aircraft.

However, I do believe there has to have been contact of some kind, or at least it is very likely. I look at the explosion of technology within the last decade or so and I ask myself: Why so suddenly? Why so frequent? Yes, sure, the 20th century was a century of huge and breathtaking breakthroughs that never before have been achieved in history in the scale it has happened, but the amount technology has changed within the last 10-15 years. I mean my watch has more memory now than my computer had 10 years ago (almost) lol

And I find it quite possible that an Alien craft might have crashed. There might be the need for a technology that we are not aware of yet to travel lightyears of distances, nevertheless, we are theoretically able to explain the means of "overlight"-travel. An alien civilisation might have access to minerals, elements or building materials that are beyond our knowledge, beyond the limits of our known products - and as so often, the more technology is involved in something, the more can go wrong. Simple example is a new car: One chip that's playing up, you can't use the vehicle. So a crash is by far not unlikely, especially if we're talking hundreds maybe thousands of light years..

It is strange that there are stories of "abductions", people that haven't known each other, asked individually, describing similar things etc. From my understanding the more fantastic and unbelievable something sounds, the more likely it is to be true.

To come, however, to the main question of the topic "Why are there so many disbelievers" - I believe our society is faulty. Our governments are corrupt and only after their own prestige and power, the media by far not so free and independent.

I want to give an example. I haven't watched television for many years now (I watch movies on DVD if anything), I don't bother much with papers, I read my news online, preferably away from mainstream media. I don't miss it. And it seems suddenly I start thinking. I know it sounds strange, but I feel in the past I didn't bother. I accepted everything, didn't care and suddenly something changed. Why? Are people somehow indoctrinated by media or whatever? Are there maybe sublime messages that tell people what to do? It's a known fact that advertising works that way, so why not in a greater scale? And our so called democracy is nothing but a shambles. You get a couple of parties to choose from, most of them with one prime objective: Gain of power. If you really want change the grasp for power and wealth would have to stop and I can't see that happening very soon.

You know, the most disturbing of all things I could imagine is the fact that should aliens exist (which i without a doubt believe, given the vastness of the known universe, whether they are intelligent is another matter), and let's assume they're intelligent and made contact...would the government not try to profit from that by gaining their probably advanced knowledge rather than let the entire planet profit from it? The answer is yes.

And something else: Whatever a movie is made about, whatever has been publicly classed as science-fiction, is hard to believe to be something rather realisitc isn't it? There have been many examples: Stargate, The Forgotten, Timeline, Terminator, Wargames etc...movies that show themes of government experiments. Who is to say essentially something may or may not be true about all that to a certain extend and different context?

The best advice is to keep our mind open and don't just blindly accept.

Well, you pretty much repeated the whole four pages in that last post.

It seems to me that every time a non-believer gives their reasoning, a believer proves them wrong.
No. There is no absolute truth but, as I wrote in another thread, "There are a million things we can't understand but believe in, such as emotion." All you non-believers have no real proof that Aliens don't exist.

We'll just have to wait and see...

lol, well I just hope I didn't bore anyone then

But that's essentially the way it is, isn't it. Don't believe everything, yet somehow find a balance to filter out what you want to believe.

Originally posted by oxgoad
Well, you pretty much repeated the whole four pages in that last post.

It seems to me that every time a non-believer gives their reasoning, a believer proves them wrong.
No. There is no absolute truth but, as I wrote in another thread, "There are a million things we can't understand but believe in, such as emotion." All you non-believers have no real proof that Aliens don't exist.

We'll just have to wait and see...

Like I've said countless times, I think everyone believe that other life forms exist...the main thing people don't believe, including myself, is that any have come to Earth.

>You take the fun out of everything.

Do I? Sorry, not my intention.

>If you look at proof that way then the word shouldn't even exist.

Yes. As far as I'm concerned the word "proof" belongs in mathematical literature, and nowhere else. I believe I understand the concept of "proof" as it is commonly used, but it simply isn't a valid concept. It is an idea based on untruth.

>If you say it can't be proven that anyone but you exists,

I don't recall excluding myself. I can't prove to you that I exist either. I don't think I could demonstrate proof even to myself that I exist. I just sort of assume that I do, because...well, it's a convenient explanation for the fact that I appear to observe things.

>is also ridiculous.

Not at all. Simply a recognizance of a small piece of truth. You've seen the matrix? Can you give me any "proof" that you are not sitting in a tube of goo right now with all of your sensory perceptions being fed to you by a machine?

I don't think you can.

>There is proof, if you are willing to believe.

Ahhhh....isn't that an interesting statement? Yes. I agree. There is proof if you are willing to believe.

In this case, there is lots of "proof" of aliens. Pictures, videos, eyewitness testimony, cattle mutilations...all sorts of "proof." But none of these things have any meaning unless, exactly as you said, "you are willing to believe."

And that's the point I was attempting to make. Different people require different sorts of evidence. Some people require an awful lot. I completely believe that there are people out there...who...if an alien craft were to land in their backyard, and a alien were to walk out, say hello and shake hands...there are people who would genuinely believe that it was a dream, hallucination, swamp gas, or a good friend of theirs playing a very elaborate prank.

Now, to be fair...there are also people who, if approached by a total stranger on a bus who said "hey, you know...I read this book once that said that maybe there are space aliens visiting earth" would completely believe, that yes, there are space aliens visiting earth.

You could try to take the middle ground, I suppose...but I prefer the perspective that belief essentially comes down to choice. For someone who firmly chooses to believe that there are no aliens, there is no "proof" you could provide that would convince them otherwise. For someone who firmly chooses to believe that there are, there is also no "proof" you could show them to change their minds.

Proof is an attempt to short circuit the decision making process.

The interesting question here is: How would we be sure that "proof" hasn't been tampered with? Like these autopsy pictures from the Rosswell incident. Proof? Hoax? Proof that was played down to divert attention elsewhere and discredit people to believe?

Think about it...

I agree that we should strive to disprove a possible sighting, image or video clip.
It's not that so-called dis-believers 'disbelieve', it's that there's no evidence.
I mean that, no evidence.
A photograph can be altered along with the negative, your eyes can decieve you. Our brains constantly look for shapes we regulary recognise and of course, pranks are regular.

I believe that there's life elsewhere and that it's possible that occasionally this life form may come this way, but I don't think they have secret agendas with world powers.

What seems to come across from people who say that Ufo's are common and friendly, is that the aliens are as paranoid and sneaky as us! They fly in vehicles that are far advanced of anything we have, hide underground and eat our cattle!
Their only contact is with the military, who they gladly share their advanced engineering with and begin a breeding program to save themselves.

I can understand people looking for theories, but I think we've muddied the waters with some of these wilder claims.

So every single UFO photo is a fake, or at least a mistake in identification? That is awfully cynical. There are honest people in the world, the majority are honest in fact. Not perfect, prone to mistakes, but honest.

Iron Man you are dismissing everyone, all the researchers, all the people here who have seen these things with their own eyes. If you are correct then we are a doomed and flawed Race with no hope.

I do not believe that. But I do agree that there have been many hoaxes and some claims that do not survive even limited human logic.



A.T
(-)

Very true. In most cases these were snapshots taken in the spur of the moment and nine times out of then the messages you receive with these pictures are telltales of genuine surprise, shock and disbelief, amazement even.

Most people are no hoaxers, they genuinely believe they have seen a UFO. Usually you would associate that with an extraterrestrial craft rather than think of some secret military experiment.

And yes, I do believe there have been visitors. I am even one of those, I would rather accept the explanation that for example Moses received his guidelines from aliens that realized that wihtout basic rules we'd kill each other (apart from a possibility that he could've come up with that himself) rather than think simply a "god" gave it to him.

It is perfectly conceivable that aliens would visit us for all kinds of things. Research, contact, help or conquest. Who knows. But I do believe we have had visitors even if it is a space microbe of some kind lol

[edit on 29/7/2005 by Overseer]

Originally posted by LordBucket
>You take the fun out of everything.

Do I? Sorry, not my intention.

>If you look at proof that way then the word shouldn't even exist.

Yes. As far as I'm concerned the word "proof" belongs in mathematical literature, and nowhere else. I believe I understand the concept of "proof" as it is commonly used, but it simply isn't a valid concept. It is an idea based on untruth.

>If you say it can't be proven that anyone but you exists,

I don't recall excluding myself. I can't prove to you that I exist either. I don't think I could demonstrate proof even to myself that I exist. I just sort of assume that I do, because...well, it's a convenient explanation for the fact that I appear to observe things.

>is also ridiculous.

Not at all. Simply a recognizance of a small piece of truth. You've seen the matrix? Can you give me any "proof" that you are not sitting in a tube of goo right now with all of your sensory perceptions being fed to you by a machine?

I don't think you can.

>There is proof, if you are willing to believe.

Ahhhh....isn't that an interesting statement? Yes. I agree. There is proof if you are willing to believe.

In this case, there is lots of "proof" of aliens. Pictures, videos, eyewitness testimony, cattle mutilations...all sorts of "proof." But none of these things have any meaning unless, exactly as you said, "you are willing to believe."

And that's the point I was attempting to make. Different people require different sorts of evidence. Some people require an awful lot. I completely believe that there are people out there...who...if an alien craft were to land in their backyard, and a alien were to walk out, say hello and shake hands...there are people who would genuinely believe that it was a dream, hallucination, swamp gas, or a good friend of theirs playing a very elaborate prank.

Now, to be fair...there are also people who, if approached by a total stranger on a bus who said "hey, you know...I read this book once that said that maybe there are space aliens visiting earth" would completely believe, that yes, there are space aliens visiting earth.

You could try to take the middle ground, I suppose...but I prefer the perspective that belief essentially comes down to choice. For someone who firmly chooses to believe that there are no aliens, there is no "proof" you could provide that would convince them otherwise. For someone who firmly chooses to believe that there are, there is also no "proof" you could show them to change their minds.

Proof is an attempt to short circuit the decision making process.

Once again, I gotta say that you have a very silly outlook on life. Stop trying to be so profound. You give the example of a movie titled "The Matrix", which, by the way, is just that-a movie. Someone made that movie. No. The robots controlling our minds while we sit in piles of slime didn't make that movie. You are neither rational nor reasonable.

You say that "proof is an attempt to short circuit the decision making process", yet you cannot make decisions based on nothing. You need facts, and thus proof, to base your decisions on. Everybody knows that.

Yes. You can choose to believe or disbelieve in Aliens and UFOs. In fact, despite my arguements so far, I really don't believe at all. I was only trying to help the people who are always bullied for believing something more far fetched than hamburgers and beer.

As for the whole "I can't prove that I exist" blather, I tell you this. Despite your seemingly intelligent theories, I do believe that you, sir, are just trying to sound impressive. You do exist and, yes, you can prove it. Talk to someone. If they talk back, you exist. And if you don't exist, please stop posting.

It all depends on how skeptical you are, how far you take it. If you dont beleive aliens could exist or that they could come here then how are you gonna beleive any evidence unless it slaps you in the face? You never will, no matter what evidence makes itself apparent those people will find reason why it cant be true. Even amazing events that may happend to those people in person, they might still try to find a reason why its not alien. Like I said it depends on how far you wanna take it. But in the end why does it matter what is true and what is not? We can think in all our minds why it can be true or cant all day long forever. It wont do us any good. Saying that the universe is huge is an understatment we hardly know anything about it how does anyone know if there are not more than one universe and in each universe there could be multiple layers of existance. Ontop of all this WE exist oh come one here like the universe has nothing but one tiny little planet in it with life and thats it....dont you think that would be a waste or a complete improbability? After these very simple facts how could one not understand the possiblity of other life? The only explanation would be Ignorance. Evidence is just not the answer to life's questions...god, aliens ect. ect. even though it does exist people are still skeptical that is what tells me evidence is not the answer the answer is within your self and what I mean by that is "to overcome ignorance is to gain the knowledge from within your self" DOUBT is the only thing in the way to this knowledge deep routed within ignorance lies doubt and deep within doubt lies fear and this hold you back dont let fear control you dont let doubt and ignorance to take over. You must beleive in your self you all are very special wonderious people full of many great things, we all come from god aliens and us humans alike therefor we all are apart of him so were all him. if you all knew the power you contain...to "know" truth but what we call knowledge of truth is today called imagination and instincs but dont be fooled when your mind gets in the way follow your heart, and that is truth.

Originally posted by Alexander Tau
So every single UFO photo is a fake, or at least a mistake in identification? That is awfully cynical. There are honest people in the world, the majority are honest in fact. Not perfect, prone to mistakes, but honest.

Right...but....

Whilst it might be accurate to say that everyone absolutely believes their own story (and by extension, is thus being honest about their experience), this doesn't mean that they actually did see what they thought they saw.

Belief in something doesn't mean it's actually true.

I don't know, Cyrus - I think there are many grey areas between "believing without the slightest bit of evidence" and "not believing until an alien slaps you in the face".

I'd think most so-called skeptics fall into the category of "looking for the most likely option given the evidence provided".

A bit like doing jury duty. Look at the evidence, see if there's enough to convince you, or enough to give you reasonable doubt...and that's your answer.

Which is why I'm still not convinced that we've had repeated visits from alien lifeforms. I couldn't say either way whether there's intelligent life out there - logistics would indicate that it's more likely than not - but as to such lifeforms regularly coming to earth? That I highly doubt.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by Alexander Tau
So every single UFO photo is a fake, or at least a mistake in identification? That is awfully cynical. There are honest people in the world, the majority are honest in fact. Not perfect, prone to mistakes, but honest.

Right...but....

Whilst it might be accurate to say that everyone absolutely believes their own story (and by extension, is thus being honest about their experience), this doesn't mean that they actually did see what they thought they saw.

Belief in something doesn't mean it's actually true.

Ok fine, then would you care to examine every single instance of this to prove yourself and explain exactly what it is these people are experiencing?

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
I don't know, Cyrus - I think there are many grey areas between "believing without the slightest bit of evidence" and "not believing until an alien slaps you in the face".

I'd think most so-called skeptics fall into the category of "looking for the most likely option given the evidence provided".

A bit like doing jury duty. Look at the evidence, see if there's enough to convince you, or enough to give you reasonable doubt...and that's your answer.

Which is why I'm still not convinced that we've had repeated visits from alien lifeforms. I couldn't say either way whether there's intelligent life out there - logistics would indicate that it's more likely than not - but as to such lifeforms regularly coming to earth? That I highly doubt.

How could you explain something using the most likely fits scenerio when were trying to explain the unkown? Its not gonna ever most likely fits into anything as were talking about the unkown not the known this is not a court.

Instead of beleiving anything why dont you research the evidence for yourself and try to find inconsistancies with theroes you are examining thus leaving out the variables until your left with the facts

Now I was under the impression some of these people's experiences were totally unkown so that takes out the varibles of all we know to exist.. what are we left with? Well lets look at the facts of these instances first.

1. They are reported to be intelligently controlled eg. they move at different speeds can stop and move in any direction at their will

2. They are reported to be lighted up at times at will and that color can blink and change

3. They can dissapear at will

4. They are seen in space and our atmosphere

They seem to intelligent to be any kind of anomly we have yet to discover and the report of people hearing and seeing different types of beings coming from or associated with ufos which lead me to beleive extertrestial is the only explanation


[edit on 1-8-2005 by DarkCyrus]

Originally posted by DarkCyrus

Ok fine, then would you care to examine every single instance of this to prove yourself and explain exactly what it is these people are experiencing?

It's not up to me to disprove anything, I'm afraid. Rather, it's up to the claimant to provide adequate proof themselves, that it all happened. But I think you missed the point anyway.

Believers generally do truly believe their experiences are true, correct and as accurate as they've generally described. This does not, however, constitute "proof".

To add to the confusion is the problem with individual perception. A loose example would be two children watching the same football game. Though they're watching the exact same game, their recollection and interpretation of events might differ greatly. Which child would you believe?

So we have perception, and individual experience...although very, very valuable tools, neither does much in the way of actually providing evidence of the subject in question, without further (usually independant) verification.

That's all. That's the very simple point being made. Mkay?

Originally posted by DarkCyrus
Its not gonna ever most likely fits into anything as were talking about the unkown not the known this is not a court.

You're dead right. This isn't a court.

But we'd be doing ourselves a great disservice, surely, if we simply believed without question, everything we're told?

This is why we're encouraged to deny ignorance - and search for as much information as we possibly can.

I still think your missing my point, which is not to beleive everything blindly but to find the truth within yourself.