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Why are there so many non-believers?

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posted on Jul, 19 2005 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by matthew2671
here some pictures if your intrested www.alienshift.com...

No offence but alot of those are photoshops, sculptures, or masks.
Just look at this and tell me it doesnt look real at first www.schellstudio.com...




posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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Good debate so far, with some excellent posts. But we could go on forever into a debate of whether UFO's are extraterrestrial. I'm sure most would agree that there is something going on that we don't understand, but that it involves extraterrestrials is for some is a leap in logic.

For me, I think some UFO's are extraterrestrial because there are some (not many) government documents that come to this conclusion. If I had time I would provide them, but too busy. I think the government knows more than they’re telling, and have access to the PROOF. So if the government has the access to the materials and or beings, and come to the conclusion that they are extraterrestrial, this is all there is to go on, so I go along with their conclusions. It's not because I watched too much TV as a child or anything, which may apply to some of the believers, but not all of us fit into this category. It is because this is the conclusion that most come up with who have done serious research on it. Still, it could be wrong, and be something totally different.

Netchicken, regarding the reference to Roswell. If it was really an experiment using human subjects, why weren't they out looking for the crash? If the scientists or military were conducting an experiment and lost track, why did it take several days for the military to show up and cordon off the area? The fact is nobody knew there was even a crash of any kind until Mac Brazel reported it to the sheriff.

But even if it isn’t extraterrestrial, isn’t it worth trying to find out what people are seeing out there?


Originally posted by Vegemite
Nobody saying its a hoax what we're saying is that the masses are blinded by their belief for ET. Little kids are like ET believers, kids believe in Santa, to them the proof that the cookies are eaten and the toys are under the tree is proof enough. But not all is what it seems.

So your saying there is no Santa Clause? Whachu talkin bout willis?



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 02:43 PM
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I work at NASA, and last time I checked, compared to the budget of military experiments yada yada yada, our budget is roughly 5% of what the military's research is. Yea, they have ALOT of money, and can work on very strange and exotic looking aircrafts. Hell, if a B2 Spirit came flying up to your airplane, you would swear up and down it had to be an alien space craft.

I highly doubt our technology has anything to do with some sort of alien lifeform...or that we've ever been visited for that matter.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by T_Jesus
I work at NASA, and last time I checked, compared to the budget of military experiments yada yada yada, our budget is roughly 5% of what the military's research is.


Well back in the day, the government was spending some of that money studying these "secret craft", in projects like Blue Book. Undoubtedly some sightings are terrestrial, but it cannot explain sightings all over the world.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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T jesus,

What did you do at Nasa?What did you work on?You had to come across something exciting in your travels.I am really curious on what they have going on when you worked there.What did you get to see?



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 04:28 PM
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I believe in aliens not UFO's, though most of the pictues i look at are all bull, they don't hold enough evidence to convince me that they are real. One example would be a guy named sin city. He said he had a video he claimed it was real, he couldn't show it to us because by some reason beyond his control it magically disappeared. He said he had a court date and he told us his name. So we went to the website that had the court date's and searched his name guess what we found........ Nothing. So because of that i took a few months away from this website. Basically i don't believe anything until there is enough evidence to prove it is true.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by menguard
T jesus,

What did you do at Nasa?What did you work on?You had to come across something exciting in your travels.I am really curious on what they have going on when you worked there.What did you get to see?


I answered this in your other thread as to what I'm doing.

As to what I've seen, I would tell you, but then I'd have to kill you...


There's nothing out of the ordinary at NASA/KSC, trust me, haha. The buildings are quite old, not much renovation has been done truthfully ($$$). They have a "vision" as to what it should look like, but I'll be happy when the vision becomes a reality...



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 08:46 PM
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This is just my speculation. I doubt the government would spend so very much money building flying saucers and cigars. I, of course, know not so much when it comes to effective aircraft design, but are these really the most useful shapes to be flying around in? And why, if the government is testing these crafts, do they always put blinking or blindingly bright lights on them and then fly over cities?! It seems like they want us to see them. Wouldn't they be, I don't know, TOP SECRET or something??

If you believe that the government is testing these UFOs, then concievably the authorities in other, anti-american contries do as well. If this is so, why does the Government allow so many hundreds of ducumented sightings-including photos and video, to circulate freely????? Wouldn't they want to hide the schematics of their top secret aircraft still being tested from the people who would use this information against them?



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 10:17 PM
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T Jesus, just to derail the thread, are they still running Nasa on 486 computers?

I read somewhere that much of the software was written for those old machines and not able to run on new computers.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by Netchicken
T Jesus, just to derail the thread, are they still running Nasa on 486 computers?

I read somewhere that much of the software was written for those old machines and not able to run on new computers.


I can't confirm that one...I don't usually go to other places besides my building at KSC, the cafeteria is as far as I go.

If you've ever seen Armageddon, there's a scene where the oil drillers and 'nauts are walking down a red carpet, that building is where I work. It has an aura of Steve Buschemi and Bruce Willis. It's also the same building of the Astronaut Crew Quarters. (if this narrows it down for anyone who's visited).



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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I am pretty new at this site so bear with me. I will admitt that I really dont believe in Aliens one bit. I along with others see no good proof. A picture just doesn't do it for me and that is technologies fault. And also when they talk to believers or wittnesses they are written off as nuts by some doctor. If it is a government cover up then that is one hell of a way to discedit someone. I just dont like to be called closed minded when not believing. For a non believer coming on to this site to see what people have to say and doing a little research to come up with my own conclusions then I say that is being very open minded. Just remember to you believers that you may be seen as weird or nuts by us non-believers but if the hard facts really come out to ALL of the public then you will be seen as pioneers and geniuses



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:42 AM
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I've always liked to think of myself as a pioneer and a genious. I just figured I'd throw that in since there has been a bit of off topic discussion about NASA anyways.
Also, I see no one has come up with any witty retorts about my last bit. I think we all know why.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by oxgoad
I've always liked to think of myself as a pioneer and a genious. I just figured I'd throw that in since there has been a bit of off topic discussion about NASA anyways.
Also, I see no one has come up with any witty retorts about my last bit. I think we all know why.


Before you really can be a "genious," you have to learn how to spell it - genius.




posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by oxgoad
I've always liked to think of myself as a pioneer and a genious. I just figured I'd throw that in since there has been a bit of off topic discussion about NASA anyways.
Also, I see no one has come up with any witty retorts about my last bit. I think we all know why.


Well you have pretty much crushed the idea the goverment makes UFOs (unlesss they do this because people wont belive the government makes them) but most people belive aliens are UFOs so what you said really isnt much of a revelation.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 07:41 PM
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Netchicken wrote:


It requires zillions of dollars, heaps of months, and highly trainined personell to even get that far. Thats what I was meaning, the technological strain on our society to even achieve that mundane target is almost beyond us.


Sure, but will that always be true? We expect steady advances as time passes so what about 10 years from now?

I take the size of the Universe, the estimated age, and put us in the middle of the spectrum. I just do not think we can rule out the possibility that Races exist with a lot more history than us. Somewhere there exists another Race that is just now reaching their moon, and somewhere else is someone who can cross Galaxies.

This basic idea comes before all the evidence, the sightings, and such. For me, even if none of those things existed I think I would feel the same. The study of history shows me how small humans tend to think, and that over time our horizons expand despite all the resistance.




As a result we take extremely difficult, to be near to "magic" technologies (such as teleportation, light travel, etc) and assume that aliens can do it, and so can we. (BTW check out the teleportation stuff, from what I read it is not taking the atoms of an individual, moving them, and reassembling them. and even if it was its only at a miniscule level )


The current scientiific studies involving teleportation certainly have nothing yet to do with transporting humans. But there have been remarkable successes, some that amaze even me.




Anything you can't explain is suddenly attributed to aliens. yet if you just stop and think about the concepts you so readily take on board you can see how fantastic are your underlying assumptions.


That is just not true, for myself and a lot of other people. Yes there are some people, mostly young people, who might do this but I do not.

Fantastic sure, but fantastic does not mean not true but rather simply at the edge of our current experiences. Look how far we have come already, I know you are aware of the 'flat earth' theory, or the 'sun revolves around the earth', what did Society say about the people who proved them wrong? When it was first mentioned that 'well actually the Earth orbits the Sun' was that not judged to be not only wrong but crazy as well?




UFO belief is a religion. Like other religions its reinforced by sproadic "proof events" (Lourdes, Fatima miracle, bleeding statues, etc) There is no objective concrete reality to your belief.


I agree that it can be a religion but it is not mine nor is it the religion of most of the good people doing serious work. I have been studying and teaching religious-type things for a very long time so this is not just a random opinion.

For those with intelligence, UFOs kinda fail the religion test because they do not explain Reality but simply raise questions about it.

You say there is no objective concrete reality, I say I think there is. 100 years ago we knew nothing of microwaves but they still existed. I think the only basis for thinking that we are alone in this vast Universe is the finite thinking of humans. We have a nature that is such that we want to believe that we are 'it' but I do not think that is true.




Aliens can create technology that carries them to other planets, ... they fly lightyears (imagine the task that involves, really imagine it, read some scientific articles on FTL travel and see the impossibility of it) then they make a mistake and crash? Oh come on, lets grab the reality cord here and bring this train of fantasy to a halt..


Advancement does not lead to perfection. Perfection is an illusion, a goal that is strived for but never achieved except in very limited circumstances.

Cars and Planes are a good example. Aircraft are of a much higher technological order than Automobiles, and we put a lot of effort into keeping both safe and functional. But despite that, despite all the time and effort, safety checks, double checks, triple checks, sometimes Planes crash. You are much safer in a Plane by a couple of orders of magnitude but it is not, and never will be, totally safe.

I think the comparision is valid when you discuss UFOs. The vast majority, by a huge margin, operate safely and with no problems. But every once in a very great while Murphy steps in.

Let me ask this question specifically: Do you believe that advancement can ever lead to perfection?

I am well aware of the support for the limit of the Speed of Light, but I rejected it as an absolute a long time ago. I see it simply as evidence of how little we really understand about the Universe. Even Albert himself said that it may only be something 'local'.

When Science says something can be done, I accept that. But when they say it cannot be done I require a lot more proof. We have been having this sort of discussion since Science began. The 'experts' of the day make grand pronouncements on what is possible, and then a few years later we learn how wrong they were. This continues to happen right up to today.

I consider Tesla to be one of the most remarkable people of all time. I have just learned that as of the 80's much of his work is considered classified by the US governement. What he knew was amazing and well ahead of his time but when he ventured into 'what cannot be done' he had some failures. The biggest was that he was 'sure' that there was no power to be found inside the atom!




Have you seen the latest on Roswell? Here is a thread about the new book. Here is a review of the book.


I am aware of it and on the surface it seems quite wrong. Someone else has already pointed out some of the basic flaws it presents. The nature of the book looks to me like just another attempt to make some money with a sensational slant on the subject.


A.T
(-)



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 08:48 PM
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About Nick Redfern's book " Body Snatchers'".

Nick Redfern's thoeries sound plausable on the surface, but in my opinion his theories have been torn to peices by, Gildas Bourdais, Stanton Friedman , and many others on the UFO UpDates List.


Gildas Bourdais ,writes More Questions On 'Body Snatchers' To Nick Redfern, on July 16, and has been heavily debated since.


[edit on 24-7-2005 by lost_shaman]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by T_Jesus

Originally posted by oxgoad
I've always liked to think of myself as a pioneer and a genious. I just figured I'd throw that in since there has been a bit of off topic discussion about NASA anyways.
Also, I see no one has come up with any witty retorts about my last bit. I think we all know why.


Before you really can be a "genious," you have to learn how to spell it - genius.



Of course I know how to spell genius. I was just testing you. You did well.

Alexander Tau-nice bit about Tesla. I was gonna bring him up too. He did a lot of things that can't really be explained as of now, but he died somewhere around 100 years ago. Most people haven't heard of him. If you were to tell someone about a man that made a small box that could create huge earthquakes, they wouldn't believe you. But it is fact and it is recorded in several newspapers and I believe he patented the device.

UFOs should be just as real to us as the wind. You can't taste it or pick it up and hold it or even see it. Yet UFOs have been seen and touched and smelled and changed the lives of too many people to be science fiction.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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The device was not patented, but I agree it existed.

In case anyone is interested my source for the new Tesla material is 'Tesla: Man out of Time' by Margaret Cheney. Not only is the book supported by some solid technical advice it also complete avoids all of the real mystery surrounding Tesla. For these two reasons I give it a lot of weight, and it should be acceptable to everyone.

I think another book is needed, one that looks at the mysteries, but this one is a solid foundation.

It just boggles the mind, 100 years later and many of his papers are classified? To me that silences the people who have always claimed that while Tesla did great things most of the mystery is bunk. According to Cheney there are 3 libraries with Tesla material, one is public, one is somewhat restricted, and the 3rd is classified and only available to people with solid security clearances.


A.T
(-)



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 04:08 PM
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You shoudl check out my david sereda thread for some good proof of aliens :

www.abovetopsecret.com...'



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 07:43 AM
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>I see no one has come up with any witty retorts about my last bit.

That's alright. I see that no one has been able to prove to me that dinosaurs were real either.

There can be no *proof* of aliens.

If a saucer flew over your house in broad daylight, it could just be the latest high-tech military aircraft.

If aliens were interviewed live on CNN, it could be government propaganda to justify martial law.

Evem if aliens abduct you personally and shake you by the shoulders and say "YOU IDIOT BELIEVE IN ME I'M REAL!!!" it might just be a dream.

There can be no proof.

Prove to me that dinosaurs once walked the earth.

You can't.

Give me any "proof" that demonstrates that you and I both exist, and that we're not hallucinating this entire thread from the insides of an insane asylum.

You can't.

Stop looking for proof. There is no such thing.




[edit on 26-7-2005 by LordBucket]



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