China says it will attack Japan if it goes nuclear

Actually Chinawhite has done some homework. Beyond my knowledge for sure. Perhap's CWs method of putting across her support and beliefs can be at timess a little gritty..?

Dallas

Originally posted by Dallas

Actually Chinawhite has done some homework. Beyond my knowledge for sure. Perhap's CWs method of putting across her support and beliefs can be at timess a little gritty..?

Dallas

Dallas,

lol, yes, I know half the board has been incinerated by CW's flamethrower, however I support his right to say whatever he wants to here.

Originally posted by JamesinOz

lol, yes, I know half the board has been incinerated by CW's flamethrower, however I support his right to say whatever he wants to here.

lol i like that. you called me a flamethrower.

anyway if you look see who started these threads that i respond in there not started by me

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by JamesinOz

I think a lot of the noise from China about Japans history has a wider underlying agenda, although I do believe the Japanese could take a leaf out of Germanys book in terms how to deal with what happened in the past.....carefully.

the japanese might be all nice to western wartime loses againest japan but when it comes to asians the japs tell them to @#$% off

CW,

I think many nations carry historical baggage, however you must remember that Australia also got repeatedly bombed by Japan in WW2, yet today Aussie soldiers are guarding the Japanese military contingent in Iraq.

I think at present the Japanese are reminded of their historical legacy almost every week, however inevitably at some point people get over it and move on in life.

Originally posted by JamesinOz

CW,

I think many nations carry historical baggage, however you must remember that Australia also got repeatedly bombed by Japan in WW2, yet today Aussie soldiers are guarding the Japanese military contingent in Iraq.

I think at present the Japanese are reminded of their historical legacy almost every week, however inevitably at some point people get over it and move on in life.

yeah the japanese bombed darwin. big lost.

20million chinese deaths + many more million SE asian countries got no apology and all that is mentioned in japanese history is that they helped released from western imperialism

now lets compare australias cast. 200something died in darwin. they got 3000dollars each compensation and repeated apologys from japanese officals.

let me remind you that this is civillian casualties...and many of the people that lived through this time are still living.



Also if you think the nazis were bad in human experients you hvaent met its japanese counter-part.. the nazi human experiment leaders all exucuted while the americans pardoned their japanese counter-parts




here is a website about unit 731.
www.centurychina.com...

[edit on 7-7-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 7-7-2005 by chinawhite]

I thouht I'd add a little tidbit for the Chinese, in case your government is thinking about having a go at Japan.

Back in '96 former US Secretary of Defense Casper Weinberger and a co-author wrote one of my favorite books- The Next War

It projected five scenarios which could become major wars for the United States in the near future.

Those situations were:

Nuclear Weapons in Iran
Soviet Rebirth
North Korean Invasion of South
Violent Border Crisis Between Mexico and USA
Japanese Rearmament and Belligerence

The book projected that given 10 years, Japan could sufficiently arm itself with stealth aircraft, EMP weapons, and world class submarines to take the Philippines and keep America from landing troops to intervene. Japan won't build in bulk- they'll build the best and use it flawlessly.

China may be making a big mistake by pushing Japan. They've got the money, they've got the nerds, and they've got the balls. If Chinese belligerence forces Japan to rearm, there will then be only one good reason for China to attempt an invasion of Japan, and that's to reduce the population of China.

Edit to add: I'm sure the response will be "we don't have to invade, we'll level their country with missiles".
Give it a shot if you like, but do it before they rearm. My guess that if CHina keeps pushing, 20 years from now Japan is going to have a second to none ballistic missile defense, and a small but lethal airforce capable of sweeping China's from the skies in short order.
They're already no slouche- China can be proud of their J-10s and what not all day long, but don't fool yourself into thinking that's what their whole force is comprised of. Japan and America have a word for most Chinese hardware- well America does- I don't speak Japanese- but the word is "antique"

[edit on 7-7-2005 by The Vagabond]

[edit on 7-7-2005 by The Vagabond]

even if japan re-arms in a conventional way or nuclear. where are they going to project power?? russia south korea china??

japan can spend her money on this high-tech equipment and watch it antique.. china only has to spend enough to make any war to costly for the japanese natioin. the fact of the matter is that if japan gets to powerful she is going to see america as a threat. japan also needs oil and will be looking for a larger role in guarding her own supplies. that will bring her into conflict with america

china only has to keep doing what its doing making friends allies in the region slowly push out american influence. AESAN countries and china are almost about to sign a free-trade pact. already china has extensive cultural links with these countries not to mention economic.

whats japan going to do when all these countries are allies/friends of china?

Can I take it you have a problem with Japan past or present or what?
Seems to me they have the same right as any Country to purchase oil and do export business with all wanting to do business with Japan.

China, frankly is new on the market and the reason they need oil is due to the likes of Canada, USA and other Countries buying good-goods for less than Fair Market Value, I mean 2/3 less selling cost to produce , export, freight inc than most western nations can do themselves.

I feel this plush sales activity will end as the cost of jobs to the very Countries China sells to for the products no longer feasibly produced by the Country will be recognized and MFN to China will end.

Dallas

Originally posted by chinawhite
even if japan re-arms in a conventional way or nuclear. where are they going to project power?? russia south korea china??

They don't need to project it at all unilaterally, nor can they under their constitution. They'll stick with America, contribute forces where America goes, and get oil from the same places America takes it.
Meanwhile, China once they are rearmed China can forget about crossing blades with them. It will be easily within their capability to fend off any adversary- North Korea especially, but China is a factor as well.

I'm primarily talking defense and cooperation with America, not belligerence. Belligerence on Japan's part was only a hypothetical from Weinberger's book, not something that I expect.

whats japan going to do when all these countries are allies/friends of china?

Remain good friends with America and prosper accordingly. Not to mention pimp slap anybody who crosses them.

Dude.. SE Asia is scared of China... American influence will remain steadfast in the SE Asia... Esp the Phillipines,Singapore,Thailand etc.. You sign free trade agreements with ASEAN nations but you forget half these countries get their military jazz from the US..
And that supercedes any free trade agreement..
I think India and Pakistan have a free trade agreement too.. and India and china are finalising one too.. That doesn't stand for squat in power projection..
If CHina attacks Japan unprovoked.. It'll be the equivalent of USA attacking Indonesia or something.. Attacking Japan is "harakiri" for china

Originally posted by Dallas

Can I take it you have a problem with Japan past or present or what?
Seems to me they have the same right as any Country to purchase oil and do export business with all wanting to do business with Japan.

China, frankly is new on the market and the reason they need oil is due to the likes of Canada, USA and other Countries buying good-goods for less than Fair Market Value, I mean 2/3 less selling cost to produce , export, freight inc than most western nations can do themselves.

I feel this plush sales activity will end as the cost of jobs to the very Countries China sells to for the products no longer feasibly produced by the Country will be recognized and MFN to China will end.

Dallas

i dont have a problem with japanese. its the governement that worries me. the japanese can do business with anyone they wish to. its not a matter china worries about. we are each others largest trading partners.

now lets get to the economic side.. comapines like sony, samsung, LG. etc

at the start these business started selling their products at below market value to eran their company a reputation of selling good products are low-prices. for many years they would make no money. then after that they slowly put their prices up and started making money and building the reputation even more so , to this present when they are all well know brands. chinese companies are not going to always sell there products under market prices. once their reputations get up then they will start moving the prices up.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Dude.. SE Asia is scared of China... American influence will remain steadfast in the SE Asia... Esp the Phillipines,Singapore,Thailand etc.. You sign free trade agreements with ASEAN nations but you forget half these countries get their military jazz from the US..

www.chinaembassy.org.in...

thailand buys military equipment from china to..

Originally posted by The Vagabond

They don't need to project it at all unilaterally, nor can they under their constitution. They'll stick with America, contribute forces where America goes, and get oil from the same places America takes it.
Meanwhile, China once they are rearmed China can forget about crossing blades with them. It will be easily within their capability to fend off any adversary- North Korea especially, but China is a factor as well.

I'm primarily talking defense and cooperation with America, not belligerence. Belligerence on Japan's part was only a hypothetical from Weinberger's book, not something that I expect.

all this thinking reminds me of the cold war. how to contain the soviet union...blah blah blah

china is using "soft" power projection to win support of her neighbours and regional countries.

you are just thinking about japanese changes and not thinking what ways china will counter them. china is already moving away from huge antique military forces to a more professional army. the Class A airforces of china recieve a lot more training better equipment than the average chinese pilot. most just military equipment is based on american equipment or licensed produced.

if america sees japan as a threat they could always stop selling japan military gear

Remain good friends with America and prosper accordingly. Not to mention pimp slap anybody who crosses them.

american influence is dimissing. there are to choices join with china or join with japan

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Dude.. SE Asia is scared of China... American influence will remain steadfast in the SE Asia... Esp the Phillipines,Singapore,Thailand etc.. You sign free trade agreements with ASEAN nations but you forget half these countries get their military jazz from the US..

www.chinaembassy.org.in...

thailand buys military equipment from china to..

You want me to give links to US embassy sites regarding the SE?
OR maybe Indian embassy sites will do?
That site is full of pro indo-china stuff like the two were the best of allies or something..
But It would be good to see friendship between the two countries

how is south-east asia scared of china??

where not talking about communist invasion anymore.

A Chinese Lesson for the US: How to Charm South-east Asia
yaleglobal.yale.edu...

Originally posted by chinawhite
all this thinking reminds me of the cold war. how to contain the soviet union...blah blah blah

Not to nitpick my friend, but "blah blah blah" worked against the Soviet Union. (Checks the map) Yeah, its confirmed- it worked.

china is using "soft" power projection to win support of her neighbours and regional countries.

Any rational country would be quaking if they had growth at the level that China is experiencing. The only way to prevent runaway inflation is to manipulate their currency. They look good on paper, but there's always a possibility that China is just riding for a fall, especially if they continue to be followers rather than leaders in technology.
Their "soft" projection will only work for as long as its stable and sustainable. People and even investors in some cases may think China looks great right now, but governments are thinking about where they will be in 4, 40, and 400 years. Many may still see America, Britain, Australia, Japan, and even India as the safer bets. They can ride China's coat tails so far, but in the long run, will they choose China at the expense of relations with other nations? It remains to be seen.

you are just thinking about japanese changes and not thinking what ways china will counter them. china is already moving away from huge antique military forces to a more professional army. the Class A airforces of china recieve a lot more training better equipment than the average chinese pilot.

The Soviets had "class A" forces too. It was actually a mistake though. Their Guards units would have done fine, but their performance would have declined dramatically as they brought up their backline units.
America's force is X many troops and that means X many troops. Every one of them proficient and deadly.
China's force is X many troops, and that means kill the first wave and things get considerably easier.

most just military equipment is based on american equipment or licensed produced.

That is exactly China's problem though. I can not express how sincere I am when i say that I do not mean to turn this into a nationalist dogfight, I'm simply saying that in my humble opinion, while China is doing well for itself and in some ways is contributing to a very positive change in the political landscape of a historically euro-centric world view, that I do not believe they are by any standard about to become the sole dominant power in this world. While China is reliant on licensed US equipment, they will always be second best. What might we have that we aren't admitting to, and aren't licensing? A lot of what we're licensing out is 70s vintage. Look at the RS-71 (I didn't get that backwards- it's a pet peeve of mine- it's designation is Recon/Strike- politicians got it backwards) We had that forever- but disclosure of its existance is relatively recent. Japan on the other hand is leading the way in some technical fields. They are capable of independently eclipsing what America is currently licensing to the rest of the world. In the words of some comedian, referring to Japan- "Ahh, good idea- we take, make better, CHARGE YOU MORE MONEY! HAHAHA!"

american influence is dimissing. there are to choices join with china or join with japan

For one, we're talking about Japan- Japan is already joined with Japan. Secondly, in case you've forgotten, America is making some major moves in the middle east and central asia, and unlike 20 years ago, nobody is in any geographical/strategic position to stop us now that the Soviet Union has fallen (as a direct result of trying to keep up with America during the Reagan Administration).
American influence won't be "diminished' for another 30 years, even in the WORST CASE SCENARIO, short of our continent just suddenly and mysteriously sinking.

In the interest of not being a blind nationalist- America is entering a brave new world- we can't ignore China anymore. We have some economic problems to hammer out (namely we have to stop exporting our industry). That being said, we're still here and we're still alive. We may not always have free run of the globe, but there's no ignoring us, and it will be a dang long time before that changes.

If I may finish with an excerpt from the story of Creation, according to the USMC- "We stole the Eagle from the Airforce and the Anchor from the Navy, and on the 7th day while God rested, we breached his perimeter and stole the globe- we've been running the show ever since."

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Not to nitpick my friend, but "blah blah blah" worked against the Soviet Union. (Checks the map) Yeah, its confirmed- it worked.

the containment of the soviet union had lines a border a wall. chiense influence is soft power. culturally and with trade. you cant possibliy stop every ship and search it for chinese goods. the thing was that the western countries didn't need the soviet union like the soviet union didn't need the west. they were both seperated economys. but in chinas cast they are connected through trade because china needs them and they need china.

Any rational country would be quaking if they had growth at the level that China is experiencing. The only way to prevent runaway inflation is to manipulate their currency. They look good on paper, but there's always a possibility that China is just riding for a fall, especially if they continue to be followers rather than leaders in technology.
Their "soft" projection will only work for as long as its stable and sustainable. People and even investors in some cases may think China looks great right now, but governments are thinking about where they will be in 4, 40, and 400 years. Many may still see America, Britain, Australia, Japan, and even India as the safer bets. They can ride China's coat tails so far, but in the long run, will they choose China at the expense of relations with other nations? It remains to be seen.

let me ask you what the japanese and koreans did. you can see a pattern china is following. china has experience 25 years of 10+% growth and now the leaders of china are settling down for a soft landing. a short patch of fast growth fllowed by a long patch of slower growth but more sustainable growth.

The Soviets had "class A" forces too. It was actually a mistake though. Their Guards units would have done fine, but their performance would have declined dramatically as they brought up their backline units.
America's force is X many troops and that means X many troops. Every one of them proficient and deadly.
China's force is X many troops, and that means kill the first wave and things get considerably easier.

china has a large amount of A class soilders/pilots. it might be a smaller percentage of the whole force but its still a very large number. these A class soilders are comparable to american soilders. a american soilder would take X amount of time to train while a chinese A class should also take the same or less time to train. but the chinese also have B class that can take the brunt of the loses.

That is exactly China's problem though. I can not express how sincere I am when i say that I do not mean to turn this into a nationalist dogfight, I'm simply saying that in my humble opinion, while China is doing well for itself and in some ways is contributing to a very positive change in the political landscape of a historically euro-centric world view, that I do not believe they are by any standard about to become the sole dominant power in this world. While China is reliant on licensed US equipment, they will always be second best. What might we have that we aren't admitting to, and aren't licensing? A lot of what we're licensing out is 70s vintage. Look at the RS-71 (I didn't get that backwards- it's a pet peeve of mine- it's designation is Recon/Strike- politicians got it backwards) We had that forever- but disclosure of its existance is relatively recent. Japan on the other hand is leading the way in some technical fields. They are capable of independently eclipsing what America is currently licensing to the rest of the world. In the words of some comedian, referring to Japan- "Ahh, good idea- we take, make better, CHARGE YOU MORE MONEY! HAHAHA!"

i understand what your saying. i read a lot about how china is riding a wave of developments from getting imports of weaponry. then the pace will slow when china has to rely on her own R&D to get new breakthroughs. What china is doing now is just catching up and building up expertise for later on to develop her own R&D industry. china currently ranks number 3 in R&D spending.

For one, we're talking about Japan- Japan is already joined with Japan. Secondly, in case you've forgotten, America is making some major moves in the middle east and central asia, and unlike 20 years ago, nobody is in any geographical/strategic position to stop us now that the Soviet Union has fallen (as a direct result of trying to keep up with America during the Reagan Administration).
American influence won't be "diminished' for another 30 years, even in the WORST CASE SCENARIO, short of our continent just suddenly and mysteriously sinking.

what i said was dimissing not gone. i know america is still going to be a force in asia for some time but its not expanding its forces or influence its fading.

but there are the two major countries the south-east asian countries can choose. japan or china.



[edit on 8-7-2005 by chinawhite]

Chinese sub illegally breaks into Japan's terriorial waters
In the early hours of November 10, a Chinese submarine was detected intruding into Japanese territorial waters off the Okinawa islands, some 1,600 kilometers southwest from Tokyo. The incident rapidly escalated into a full-blown diplomatic row as the entire Japanese political establishment stirred up fear and suspicion with alarmist statements about the Chinese military threat on Japan’s doorstep. An examination of the events reveals that the alarm was largely fabricated.

The submarine refused to obey Japanese orders to surface and fled the area. Even though the vessel had already left Japanese waters, it was tracked by a P-3C maritime patrol plane for hours.

These aggressive actions by the Japanese military toward a Chinese vessel were unprecedented. In March 1999, Japan fired on two North Korean spy ships near Noto Peninsula and Sado Island. In December, 2001 a North Korean ship was sunk by Japanese forces in the Amami-Oshima islands. Under conditions where the vessel was known to be Chinese, however, this bellicose response marks a shift.

The delays following the first reports of the intrusion indicate that Japan’s response was the subject of intense discussion in political and military circles. The decision to intercept the sub and try and force it to the surface was a course of action that could have led to a military confrontation between China and Japan.

----------------------------------------------------------

Japan uses submarine incident to whip up anti-Chinese nationalism

After the identity of the submarine was finally revealed, the Japanese media and political establishment unleashed a vicious campaign of anti-China hysteria.

Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura met with Chinese embassy official Cheng Yonghua to formally make “a strong protest and demand an apology”. The Chinese foreign ministry refused to comment on the incident, declaring that they were conducting an investigation. (the usual)
A nationalist outcry dominated the next day’s editorials in Japan’s major newspapers.The Yomiuri Shimbun declared: “Tokyo had every reason to request an apology from Beijing for its violation of Japanese sovereignty and demand it to make sure nothing like the recent incident will ever happen again. The Chinese submarine’s behavior was enough to arouse our great distrust.”The conservative Sankei Shimbun demanded that China “must clarify the cause of the incident and promise us it will never do this again.... If we are soft in handling the incident, China will likely repeat illegal acts over and over.”The secretary-general of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP), Tsutomu Takebe, demanded an apology from China: “Japan shouldn’t shy away from saying what it has to say to China, though maintaining stability in Asia is important.”The president of the opposition Democratic Party of Japan (DPJ), Katsuya Okada, although maintaining Japan had to keep a “cool head”, demanded an apology from Beijing and called for the scaling back of economic assistance to China. The Japanese Communist Party (JCP) issued a statement insisting the Chinese government release the results of its investigation “as soon as possible” and admit its responsibility for the incident.

Read full articles ... (this is only a small part of the articles)

Japan stokes tensions with China

Washington fuels Japanese militarism

US-Japan security statement heightens tensions with China

The Smurai rise

In Japan and the US, China is regularly portrayed as a military threat. A CIA report issued to the US Congress on February 16, for instance, stated that the “improved” Chinese military capacity “threatened” US forces in the region. Such statements ignore the fact that China’s annual military expenditure—$20 billion—is dwarfed by the US defence budget of more than $400 billion.

Japan’s own defence spending—$50 billion—is also much greater than China’s. While it has no overtly offensive weapons such as long-range bombers or nuclear weapons, it has considerable military muscle. The Japanese Self-Defence Forces have a similar number of warplanes to Britain, but more combat personnel, twice as many warships and nearly three times as many tanks. The government heavily subsidies a military industry of some 2,500 “civilian” enterprises, capable of producing advanced weaponry.

In many areas of military technology, Japan has led the world. Most of the microchips controlling the US “smart weapons” are made in Japan. The material used to coat the surface of US “stealth” warplanes is also Japanese technology. It is estimated that if Japan were allowed to export arms, it would rapidly capture 40 percent of the market for electronic systems, 46 percent of military vehicles, 25 to 30 percent of aircraft and 60 percent of naval vessels.

Last month, Kyodo news agency leaked Japanese defence ministry plans for dealing with conflict in Japan’s “south western islands”. Without specifically naming the enemy, the document called for the rapid mobilisation of 55,000 troops as well as destroyers and warplanes in the area north of Taiwan, including Senkaku or Diaoyu—an island disputed by China and Japan.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
That's because the US needed Australia as a base to launch operations against Japan, if Japan took Australia it was all over for the US. Japan would control the entire south Easter area and the US would be limited to only Hawaii.

Westpoint,

Just to hark back to this point, I actually think the alliance is more than just hard military strategy...it's no coincidence that U.S. carrier goups and Marine ships often bypass S.E. Asia and just come straight to Australia from the middle east for their R & R.

I can tell you most Aussies love it when a carrier turns up, and like taking Americans under their wings, and likewise the Yanks actually feel WELCOME here, as opposed so some other parts of the world.

I remember as a kid the U.S.S. Enterprise turned up one day at our local port, and as it was my older brother's 10th birhday my mom rang the carrier and invited one of the sailors over to talk to us kids at the party.

Well, they sent an F-15 pilot over in his white officers uniform, and I can tell you my brother was the most popular kid on the block that day. The officer gave my brother a big Silver Eagle American coin for his birthday, and a talk to all us kids about the U.S.N. defending freedom around the world.

And I've been a sucker for the U.S.N. ever since!

When the PLA turn up in my neighbourhood, I'm not so sure we'll get the same kind of treatment.