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Can Evolution be proven? or is it just a theory/religion?

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posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 05:58 PM
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Mcory1



If you--or anyone for that matter, open invitation here--give me one reason to believe that the Bible's interpretation of how the universe was formed is anything other than man's attempt to explain things then I will firmly take it into consideration. Give me proof that creation happened. And give me honest proof, not just finding problems with other theories that are out there, and preferably not using a religious text. Then I'll look into it. Until then, don't tell me what I believe in or don't believe in, and don't tell me what I think the "best" thing is.


Cannot the same be said of science? that Science is an attempt be man to explain things?
As to proving the truth of the bible I cannot do that as, as you have stated, the bible (which is older than 2 centuries by the way
) was writen by man and has been interpeted by man a number of times throught the ages.
Does the above negate the message of the bible, I think not.
Here is an example for you.
The word that was used in describing how long it tookl god to make heaven, earth and man is accepted by mainstream churches as 7 days. The word though (YOM by the way) actually has several meanings only one of which is day. It can also mean era which could have covered thousands or even millions of years ans the length of time for era is not defined.
Sometime way way back, there was a creation. Was it the creation as outlined by science or the bible or other religions? We can only theorize this and the scientific means is based solely on theoretical mathematics.
You asked who made God. That is a good question one which I can not fully explain other than my own personal theories on this. I could ask you the same thing though, what caused all the myraid chaotic energies that were created in the beginning of the universe to align correctly so as to actually create matter much less than life? Have you ever looked into the numbers that show the high improbability of this having to have occured just by random chance?




posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 06:05 PM
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But we are the best thing! Except to gorillas, and tigers, and cheetahs, and anything that flies on it's own, and anything stronger/faster then us, and.......


Sure christianity is based on invisable people in the sky(god/heaven), magical zombies that fly into the sky(Jesus), and magic giants and snakes(eden, snake/apple, so forth), but again, anyone with a brain knows that doesn't make sense.

Edited since Springer yelled at me, showed me that I should explain what I am talking about, IE magic zombies(Jesus). Not in those exact words, but I are smart nuff to knowis whit Springer meent.(I spelled the last part like an idiot/ignorant/bible thumper)

Also, adding this link, pretty much what ignorance is all about, I mean religon.

www.evilbible.com...

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

[edit on 21-6-2005 by James the Lesser]



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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JTL,
Are you still spouting your hatred? Why is it that you are allowed to continually make such flaming remarks against someome of faith and yet NEVER RECEIVE A WARN.
Instead of contributing anything, all you seem to be able top do is to spew your hatred. I have in the past, faced you on this hatred and you have quote, shown proof of why your hatred is "justifided" Unfortunately, Once I researched your, proof, and presented them to you, you never responded to that thread again? Why is that? Is it just easier to flame people of faith than trying to actually provide something to either contribute to a thread?


Also, below me is an example of christian illogic.

I can't prove anything, I am so stupid I think the world is flat, center of universe, and an all mighty powerful invisable dude that lives in the sky will come down and rape me if I eat meat on a friday, therfor, I am smarter then you.

Sure this is what christianity is based on, but again, anyone with a brain knows that doesn't make sense.



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 06:33 PM
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Evolution is just a theory... but it is the best theory of how we got here. For many it is enough to convience them but for some religious people they just can't be convienced.
I think Evolution is not a religion because it doesn't brainwash people.
Remember it's just a theory and the theory will change in the future when we have gain more Knowledge about our past.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by expert999
ok let me ask you this... if evolution is true, what caused the big bang?

Irrelevant. If god created the universe instead of the big bang, then evolution is completely unaffected. The fact that you'd ask this question reveal that you have, perhaps, not done enough research into evolutionary biology.


see, you dont even know what you believe in. you think that you can just skip the other steps? well you cant. because everything has to evolve if evolution is true

Absolutely incorrect.


Expert, why have you started a thread, and ignored the specific replies that have come up with it? Are you here to discuss these things or not? Don't start bringing up other issues when respondants have brought up a whole set of things for you to address.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Cannot the same be said of science? that Science is an attempt be man to explain things?


Yes, that's very true. My personal opinion is that religion was man's attempt at what is known as science today.



.... (removed for some brevity)

The word that was used in describing how long it tookl god to make heaven, earth and man is accepted by mainstream churches as 7 days. The word though (YOM by the way) actually has several meanings only one of which is day. It can also mean era which could have covered thousands or even millions of years ans the length of time for era is not defined.


This I can fathom; and this is something that is a new concept to me that I only recently came into seeing (here at ATS as a matter of fact). As a side note, it's the people that take the Bible verbatim that I have the most problem with, the ones that say "It happened exactly the way it's written."



Sometime way way back, there was a creation. Was it the creation as outlined by science or the bible or other religions? We can only theorize this and the scientific means is based solely on theoretical mathematics.
You asked who made God. That is a good question one which I can not fully explain other than my own personal theories on this. I could ask you the same thing though, what caused all the myraid chaotic energies that were created in the beginning of the universe to align correctly so as to actually create matter much less than life? Have you ever looked into the numbers that show the high improbability of this having to have occured just by random chance?


My own "hypothesis" (for lack of a better term--belief or theory is too strong) is that there is a higher power of some kind, who essentially got the ball rolling. The reason I asked "who made God" was in response to experts' claim that in order for evolution to be valid, there must be a long chain of evolution. Following the creationism idealogy, there must be a long chain of creation. I was merely trying to use the poster's logic, and I may well have failed at doing so.

The numbers are of everything being created by chance are certainly not in favor of it happening. But high improbability does not denote impossibility. One thing I'm curious about--and not to make any point of my own--but has anyone ever calculated the odds of there being a creator of some kind? What exactly would be the variables needed to consider that?


Originally posted by ulshadow
Remember it's just a theory and the theory will change in the future when we have gain more Knowledge about our past.


That's exactly why I favor evolution over creationism. Evolution, and science in general, leaves room for its ideas to change when proof is given. I have yet to see a religion say "You know what, we were wrong. This guy wasn't the messiah, yours is. Can we play bingo at your place next week?" But scientific theories get changed on a fairly regular basis, and the ones that don't never face any strong competition.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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And again, like all other topics, christians have nothing but fairys and magical zombies that fly into the sky(Jesus) while evolution has science, reality, and facts. More from the bible!

Instead of harping on me about something so unapparent, they should go tell it to the Midianites. (Please open your Bibles to Numbers 31) The following verses are a classic example of wholesale slaughter and rape under the direction of the same God they claim to be so merciful. A quick sample of this tale: On the way to the promised land, God had Moses wage a war campaign against the Midian. Moses was told to put every Midianite to death, plunder anything of value, set fire to their towns where they lived and all their encampments. Moses gave the orders to his troops (the sons of Israel) and went on a further campaign. On the return of his troops Moses was enraged with the commanders of the army. He said, “Why have you spared the life of all the women and children? You are to kill all the children and kill all the women who have slept with a man. The lord says spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves, so that we may multiply into a great nation.” Yes, friends, this is biblical infinite mercy and compassion for you. I particularly like the way that Moses got upset with them for sparing women and male children, but allowed the young girls to be kept for later raping.
www.evilbible.com...



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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which bible are you reading?



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 03:47 PM
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The word that was used in describing how long it tookl god to make heaven, earth and man is accepted by mainstream churches as 7 days. The word though (YOM by the way) actually has several meanings only one of which is day. It can also mean era which could have covered thousands or even millions of years ans the length of time for era is not defined.


well if you read the bible, it clearly specifies, the first day, the second day ect...
not long period of time.

why does richard c lewontin say in his textbooks that evolution is a fact? and also that birds rose from non-birds and humans from non-humans.
this is taught in public schools. clearly he is trying to push something here. he is trying to push his religion. there is no way on earth that he knows that evolution has never been proven.

but people like yourself believe something foolish like evolution theory simply because its mentioned many times and and repeated during classes and on the internet.

Hitler said "if you tell a lie loud enough and long enough and often enough, the people will believe it"

yeah im telling you that you believe a bunch of made up stuff that either does not exist, or it was made up.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by expert999
but people like yourself believe something foolish like evolution theory simply because its mentioned many times and and repeated during classes and on the internet.


The irony is killing me!



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 03:57 PM
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Before we can define evolution we need first to define religion. Our friend here trying to prove that evolution is wrong may not realize that his religion may be wrong in itself. There have been hundreds of religions through the course of human history. Some believed in a single all powerful "God" but many others did not. Are the others wrong? Is your assumption that the christian "God" created all life on Earth right? Other religions believe in many gods, while others believe we all came up from the ground or the clouds. Is that wrong? What makes your belief right? To be truthful, I am just being nice. Religion is just something that humans created to explain things that they could not understand. Before we understood air currents we thought that they were acts of "God". We know better now. Before you criticize evolution I suggest that you look back at your own religion and see if you are right to believe in something that people created out of their own minds.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 03:59 PM
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Hitler said "if you tell a lie loud enough and long enough and often enough, the people will believe it"



You mean something like religion.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by expert999
well if you read the bible, it clearly specifies, the first day, the second day ect...
not long period of time.


The Bible also clearly specifies other things that are quite often disregarded these days. "Love thy Neighbor" stands out quite clearly; we do a great job of that, don't we? It also says that Jesus spent a great deal of time with prostitutes, lepers, and other people that our society in general looks at as lesser people. It also says "turn the other cheek," a policy no self-respecting American--myself included--kept in mind on September 12, 2001. I think these examples alone speak volumes for how the bible is open to interpretation.



why does richard c lewontin say in his textbooks that evolution is a fact? and also that birds rose from non-birds and humans from non-humans.
this is taught in public schools. clearly he is trying to push something here. he is trying to push his religion. there is no way on earth that he knows that evolution has never been proven.


Who is Richard Lewontin? I personally haven't heard that name before. Okay, so evolution is iffy, and I'll grant--strictly for argument's sake--that it's not a fact. Why is it any less reasonable than creation? He wrote in a book his belief. Does that make it any less right than what people wrote about a supreme being who created everything with a snap of the fingers?



but people like yourself believe something foolish like evolution theory simply because its mentioned many times and and repeated during classes and on the internet.

Hitler said "if you tell a lie loud enough and long enough and often enough, the people will believe it"


You know, the exact same could be said right back at you, just replace the word "evolution" with "creation". Let's see how that works:



but people like yourself believe something foolish like creation theory simply because its mentioned many times and and repeated during classes and on the internet.

Hitler said "if you tell a lie loud enough and long enough and often enough, the people will believe it"


Hmmmm....still makes sense to me. How do you know that people haven't been pulling your leg with something that's been said quite often and quite loud for over 2000 years?

The only difference is that evolution has been around about a century and a half, the idea of a supreme creator has been around longer. The idea the world was flat is also older than the idea the world was round, and that was a hard one for people to let go of also. The idea the earth was the center of the universe was another one that lasted a long time and was eventually proven wrong. Just because an idea has been around for a long time does not in itself make the idea right.



yeah im telling you that you believe a bunch of made up stuff that either does not exist, or it was made up.


Again, the exact same thing could be said about creationism. What can you give as proof to the contrary?



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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The only thing that makes me belive in the creation by God theory is that we have less chromisomes than previous apes. I think apes have like 48 or something like that and we have less. I think humans have like 46. My I stumped my Bio teacher a while ago by telling her this, she had a hard time explaining this occurance.

I personaly belive in the religious aspect of creation.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 05:39 PM
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I've never heard anything about a difference in chromosomes, but I honestly haven't studied it much. However, off the cuff, a quick answer to that could be that we just don't need those missing chromosomes. Perhaps we evolved to have no use for them. Like I said, just a quick answer. I don't know a whole lot about genetics, so I'm probably not the best one to rebute this.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 05:54 PM
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If you think that evolution has a bunch of holes in it then how about all the holes in religion?



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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ok first of all. creation has been around since man can remember. legends dating back to about 5,000 years.
legends about a world wide flood date back no earlier than 4000 BC.
the oldest tree on this earth is no older than 4400 years old.
the oldest desert is no older than 4400 years old.
there is not enough salt in the ocean to cover millions or billions of years, nor is there enough sediments at the bottom of the ocean to cover for billions or millions of years. they use pangea to cover this problem. they say that all the sedimants got sucked under the plates when they shift.
they used anual ice rings to determine how old the earth is. but the anual rings are not anual rings, you look up "the lost squadron" about planes that got lost in WWII was found under thousands of anual rings, the truth about those is that 5 rings can form in one day.

they say that grand canyon formed over many millions of years, when there are no signs of errosion found between the layers and there are petrified trees standing up connecting those layers, and some are found upside down. no tree will stand there for millions of years and wait for layers to form around them. it does not take things very long to petrify.

they say that if stars are billions of light years away, then how can we see them if they are soo far away? well if God did create the universe, im sure that he could make the light already visible. plus no one can measure star distance beyond 20 light years accurately. and its been proven. its been said that 100 light years is max anyone can measure and get an approximate distance. they are but 20 light years for a definite. skinny triangles are hard to make accurate. and no one can be sure as to where exactly earth was a half year ago. and by the way, there enough stars out there, that everyone on earth could own about 7 trillion stars to themselves, and thats just the ones we know about, we dont know about the ones we dont know about.

people think they have seen stars form. actually no one has. the only one they have seen is the one is crab nebula. and all they see there is a spot getting brighter. that does not prove a star forming. it could be that the dust it clearing and there is a star behind it.

the moon is leaving us. of you go back 150 million years approx. the moon would be almost touching the earth. and everything on earth would be covered with water, evolutionist say that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. and if you go back millions of years, the earth would have been spinning so fast that the winds would be over 500 miles and hour due to the corriolis effect, not to mention that the earth itself would be spinning so fast that things might begin to fly off it.

galaxies lose their spiral shape over time. if the universe is billions of years old, why do we still have galaxies? it would take a galaxy about 10,000 years to totally lose its spiral shape. or why havent any galaxies lost their spiral shape, or even close to losing it.

the geologic collumn does not exist. no one knows how old the layers are. and you cant date the fossils by the layers its found in and you cant date the layers by what fossils are found.

I dont know if I told you this before, but human footprints has been found with dinosaur tracks.

coal supposedly formed millions of years ago, but human artifacts are found in coal.. interesting...

I just proved over half of evolution wrong. everything I have just told you implies that the earth is young and less than 10,000 years

if you add up all the dates in the bible, you get about 6,000 years ago. and if the flood was about 4400 years ago. it all makes sense.

evolution needs a bunch of time for things to happen,

example: according to evolution, a frog can change to a prince over billions of years. if this change happens instantly its called a fairytail. evolution needs time for things to happen, things that we cannot prove.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 06:19 PM
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Ok Expert999



well if you read the bible, it clearly specifies, the first day, the second day ect...

Let try to explain it to you this way.
The bible written in the origional does not say day 1 day 2
It does say YOM 1 YOM 2, Remember, the origional text was written in ancient hebrew so stating that the bible clearly specifies the first day, the second day is clearly wrong. According to history, the english anguage was not even on the horizon when Genisis was being written.
Have you ever taken a look at a copy of one of the origional texts? They are available.
You maybe surprised by what you will find.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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The only thing that makes me belive in the creation by God theory is that we have less chromisomes than previous apes. I think apes have like 48 or something like that and we have less. I think humans have like 46. My I stumped my Bio teacher a while ago by telling her this, she had a hard time explaining this occurance.


evolution would be an increase in genetic complexity, so I am glad you believe that we were created by a creator.

benefitial mutations do not happen. if so name one and show me



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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please read my above posts as well



If you think that evolution has a bunch of holes in it then how about all the holes in religion?


creation along with evolution is a theory as well, however it is tied in with a religion. evolution is a theory, believing in that theory makes it your religion. believing in a God does not make that belief religious. if it did, than atheism is not a religion when in fact it is. as a matter of fact. atheism can by tied in with evolution. making one religion.




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