Russia military breaks into Finnish territory...

Originally posted by cyberdude78
I'm guessing that right now Russia is feeling put down. So what do you do when everybody laughs at you about a complete economic and political collapse? Start poking your neighbors with your new pointy stick. Chances are Russia is simply showing off to look tough.

Russia's economy is actually recovering rather quickly. If they continue to grow at the rate they are right now, by 2015 they'll be in the top three economies of the world.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
Let's see the UN will do nothing, the US will probably start shouting very loudly, possibly even making presidential visits. Other than that I doubt we'll see any war.

U.S. won't, because they know Russia won't listen. Last thing Bush wants is to look like an idiot by making threats he can't enforce.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
But just a question, isn't Russia currently in NATO? Because ironically NATO was made to protect against Soviet invasion. Hmm...

No.
en.wikipedia.org...

Its pretty simple in my eyes.

If Russia denies they are flying their planes in your air space, then if you shoot their planes down, they cant bitch.

After all, if no such violations of air space are occuring, then obviously, a Russian jet cannot be shot down. Since no such jets are violating Finnish airspace, right?

Such an action would cause on of two things: the Russians would be forced to admit they are trespassing, which would not be good for them. They other: keep their mouths shut and brood over it. Discretion is the better part of valor, and the Russians are pretty smart.

Hell, we have violated Russian airspace several times. Remeber the U2 spyplane that got shot down? The Russians bellowed and raged, but it was mostly a bunch of steam really. After a while, it blew over, and all was back to normal. I dont think Russia would try anything against Finland, because NATO and the EU would be on em like flies on #, so Finland has nothing to fear.

Its not like the Finns havent sent Russia packing before anyway.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
I view it the same as if a few tanks rolled into the country and then Russia denied it happened.

Stage 1: Record proof, confront Russia with evidence and demand an answer.
Stage 2: Failing that go to UN with proof and demand an answer.
Stage 3: Failing that warn Russia that the next military planes to enter Finnish airspace will be shot down.

Russia would skip stages 1 and 2, so go Finland

We've done all of the above already. They're just testing the unity of EU countries especially now that the ADEX05 airwarfare excersise was held here.

Okay lads! First just calm down, we're not talking over a war here!

If you could imagine the number of incursions that occurs each day over every country in the world, you would just be amazed.

I just take an example: here in switzerland, for the last 3 month:

3 French Air Force planes have broke the borderline over Geneva Lake and over the Jura, that is:

1 Mirage 2000-c
1 Transall Gabriel
1 Super Puma (lost in the fog)

about 7 German planes did aswell.

One Italian typhoon did too while convoying the plane from the Factory in germany.

Take a look at the map... When you see how tortured the borderlines are, it's almost impossible not to break the line once.

Source: paper article on Swiss Newspaper "24 heures"

Then about Finland and Rodinya: I assume we are in a "Show the Flag" case! Each side will prove one can cross the border, one can see the other do so, etc.. I approve the 3 stage chart

1 Diplomatic note
2 UN note
3 Use of Strenght

But a war between finns and russies would drive to a no-turn, as it would be a self killing for Russia... They might win against Finland, and even it's not sure... But win against the whole nato, god that would drive to a little pretty mess!

Unless there is some political situation between Russia and Finland that I'm not aware of, I would guess that the Russians just wanted to get a look at the F-18, or maybe at Finland's radar systems.

It might be a mistake for Finland to make too much out of this. Problems with Russia may prove expensive in terms of politics, economics, and in a low-stakes way, militarily. They won't go to war, but if Finland shoots down a Russian plane, the next time they come in contact the Russian pilots might get trigger happy. Does Finland want to lose several multi-million dollar aircraft and several pilots just to make a point to Russia? And what would that point be? Finland can't defeat Russia in a war- the only point they would prove is that they are hot tempered.

I would recommend taking the first two steps that were recommended earlier (taking proof to Russia, then to the UN) but as step 3 I would propose that Finland look for a way to publically disrespect the Russians to show them how it feels- violate their airspace, or board a couple of Russian civilian vessels just outside of Finnish waters and falsely accuse them of some crime. Just something to show that they can screw with Russia and not get punished.

Finland and Russia relations are good as they share very large trade between each others as currently Finland holding stronger economy we are investors to Russias large markets. Like Taiwan does with China expect we dont have such military tension between two of us, only problem caused by major EU directives that make Russians second class civilians when they come across the Finnish borders cause little problems as Russia finds ways to make those Finns going across borders life harder as well. Finland is generally filter for things Russia want to strive trough and mostly the message get to center of EU.

To get military relation with this never to happen, it have to be Russia firing first to anything happen, Finnish army will just only observe, even with its own borders and retaliate if fired upon, at least thats what i believe and that get us most friends if anything to be happened. And no im sleeping my nights very well.

DJ,

Originally posted by djohnsto77
If Russia attacks Finland, it won't be just the Fins fighting them, it'd pull in NATO and the EU and probably end up in global thermonuclear war.

I think you will find that Finland is not a member of NATO and the EU does not have "an attack on one member is an attack on all members" clause AFAIK.

Cheers

BHR

Yes, I know Finland isn't a NATO member state, but I doubt it would sit idly by if Russia attempted an invasion of it.

DJ,

Do you think the tulipwalkers of Europe will go to war over Finland?

Would the US?

Cheers

BHR

I think Russia attacking the Western European nation of Finland would be equivalent to Germany invading Poland.

Try it on diplomatic way, ask germans for sending a tank division, patriots, gepard, tornados and EF2000, as you are member of EU, they'll do it, wait for the next plane comeing, and let it shoot down...

(maybe you should also ask france and UK to strenghen the force)

easy thing, russians won't do this again, as they don't want to risk a war with the european union....

[edit on 7-6-2005 by Wodan]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Its not like the Finns havent sent Russia packing before anyway.

Pyotr Alexeevich; he would think otherwise.

There was already Finnish and Russian prime minister meeting and Russia agreed on that theyr planes might have gone pass the borders and it was about few kilometers radius inside Finnish borders. Finland accepted this and case was closed after this. And it was said that Putin himself will visit Finland this summer and this case is closed already so it wont be issue on that meeting. Its ironic to see people pulling out all the weaponry on this as its only politics, theres no benefit for Russia to do anything to Finland and we know it well.

To those who havent known Finland has been neutral country after WWII, but some of its politics has made it less obvious, as joining the coalition and such on Afganistan. Also Finland was first country to pay war debt to Russia after WWII and some countrys havent even paid it up today.

No critics to make then. A good demonstration of how war cases can be solved by the help of diplomacy. Anyway, the next war wont be begun by Russian Federation, I swear. And certainly not against "western countries".

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
DJ,

Do you think the tulipwalkers of Europe will go to war over Finland?

Would the US?

Cheers

BHR

who knows Bill, we Americans tend to be very unpredictable and very picky about which country to invade or defend.

I think you guys see things in a bitt too much black and white- russia attacking or not. I suspect that the flyovers are not a preparation for an attack. Russia is just doing the good old russian style bullying. The only language they (russkis) understand/respect is strength. I say down a plane and "sorry he got in the way of our exercise, that we were having in our territory" or better just tell them go *insert colorful insult* Because they will try the finnish patience until they get a bloodied nose..

And if they start messing pick up the phone to us Swedes. We've helped before and will do again!

Well, I don't think that France and Germany would care for Finland... We are just one small contry in the north... But we'll se... Maybe it was all a bad dream...

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
Well, I don't think that France and Germany would care for Finland... We are just one small contry in the north...

But we'll se... Maybe it was all a bad dream...

In fact I think they would, an attack on any EU country, is to see like an attack on the own soil, for WEU treaty members (a european military pact independant of nato)

If Russians can do whatever they want on EU territory that looks bad for us Europeans

Yeah, if everyone would think like that... But Hey... Why would they care for Finland... It isn't "useful" for EU in the sence that for instance Spain is... And BTW, the whole thing propably got sorted out... Cos' the Russians said that they were only newing their air space radars close to Finland... And they needed their planes to do



Could these F/A 18 C/D Hornets defend Finland against a possible threat...?

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Figher Master FIN]

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
Yeah, if everyone would think like that... But Hey... Why would they care for Finland... It isn't "useful" for EU in the sence that for instance Spain is... And BTW, the whole thing propably got sorted out... Cos' the Russians said that they were only newing their air space radars close to Finland... And they needed their planes to do



Could these F/A 18 C/D Hornets defend Finland against a possible threat...?

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Figher Master FIN]

You are in the european Union, so you have to ask:














could these planes defend Finland against a possible treat?

[edit on 17-6-2005 by Wodan]