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Amnesty responds to Bush's comments

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posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 01:07 PM
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Great article dissecting this issue at www.counterpunch.org


Those of us in the reality-based community are not inclined to dismiss an Amnesty International report out of hand. I myself am sometimes disappointed with AI, especially when they accuse certain organizations I respect of human rights violations on a par with those of the governments they seek to topple. I think it necessary to distinguish between the violence of the oppressed and the violence of the oppressor. One is "political" whether one so distinguishes or not, and AI's politics tends towards the legitimatization of state power over the right to rebel. In any case, the organization does a lot of good work, and I support for example the programs they maintain in our high schools. Only fools would call their reports "absurd," not to be taken seriously.

But here you have the president and vice president of the United States dissing AI big time, arguing in effect that

(a) the U.S. is the biggest liberator of human beings ever, and that therefore ipso facto

(b) it can't possibly have tortured abused and humiliated prisoners from Guantanamo to Afghanistan. Isn't it simple and obvious? And

(c): those making charges are freed detainees, who hate America, and

(d) they have been trained to "disassemble," which preacher man Bush tells us means to lie.

...

William Schultz, head of Amnesty's U.S. section responds that it is "worth noting that this administration never finds it 'absurd' when we criticize Cuba or China, or when we condemned the violations in Iraq under Saddam Hussein." Indeed U.S. administrations routinely reference AI reports when they want to attack some foreign foe. But the fascistic epistemology current in ruling circles dictates that truth cannot negatively affect the USA. Facts and intelligence must be fixed around U.S. interests. So the Cheney-friendly Wall Street Journal lashes out at the "moral degradation" of Amnesty International, debased so low as to compare the U.S.'s global network of detention centers including those in allied countries that routinely employ torture, with a "gulag." Neocons David Rivkin and Lee Casey condemn AI's "extravagant and unfounded claims" in the National Review without attempting to refute any particular claim. "Groups like Amnesty persistently state that American policy at Guantanamo Bay is illegal," they declare, "even though this is simply not true." It just is, in the disassembler's words, not true.


I suggest you read the article, it's very thought-provoking.

Of course, if you are SO adamant about your position that you REFUSE to even consider any alternates to your narrow point of view, then don't read the article or anything I have pasted above and just answer something silly like "YEAH WE'RE FREEDOM JUNKIES! YAY AMERICA GO GO GO!".

jako




posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by the_oleneo

Originally posted by bodrul
plz tell me ur joking?
the united states has broken s**t loads of international laws
do you need it spelt out?


So have every other country in the world in one way or another, including the vaunted UN. Need to spell it out for you?



sorry i thought you just said the US is the only country following international laws

then you respond with "so is every other country"
so did you just say the US breaks intrernational laws aswell

also did i say no other country has broken international laws or say they have broken international laws
or wasn't i just responding to that comment



read comments carefully before you reply
or should i spell that out for you aswell


E_T

posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by the_oleneo
Political purpose of Gitmo: The suppression of an international terrorist group that had attacked...
Good, they're terrorists so why aren't these prisoners brought to trial for convicting them?

That's the question you don't want to answer.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 01:57 PM
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IMHO...

Anybody who makes a comparison between the Soviet Gulag and the GITMO Detention Center is a complete flippin' moron.

I would love to see some of these people look Russians square in the eye and say that, knowing full well that over 25 million Russians, slavs, etc, were worked to their deaths in the Gulag over a span of decades. In the brief years that GITMO has existed, not one prisoner has been killed or substantially harmed. Statements like the ones made by these AI idiots sully, dishonor, and denigrate the lives of the millions of innocent people (note the word "innocent") who were sent to their deaths by the Leninists and Stalinists. It sickens me. This feeling is only worsened when I realize that, were the roles reversed, our soldiers would be lying headless in a ditch somewhere while these "freedom fighters" would be off oppressing the local neighborhood, preaching their enlightened version of Wahabi Islam. Remember, there is no version of GITMO for our soldiers captured by our enemies, only the sword. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there.........

While I understand that the US must be held to a higher standard compared to those we criticize, the terms, comparisons, and tone that Amnesty International regularly use in their so-called "reports" does nothing but enable their little-remaining credibility to be lost.

I used to think that AI was something like the ACLU, taking up noble (yet vastly unpopular) causes for the greater good. It is now readily apparent that they have degenerated into nothing more than a left-wing, green party, socialist, anti-American organization of tree-hugging dirt worshippers.

I would like nothing more to send them all off to the Gulag for a few years, then ask them if they would prefer a transfer to sunny GITMO............



[edit on 3-6-2005 by Pyros]



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 02:17 PM
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Pyros:

In the brief years that GITMO has existed, not one prisoner has been killed or substantially harmed.


LOL! Yeah, it's practically a country club if you ignore the cages and jumpsuits, right? Haha.

Not one prisoner in Gitmo has been REPORTED by the US MILITARY to have been killed or seriously injured.... That's a HUGE difference.

Can anyone really be that naive?


While I understand that the US must be held to a higher standard compared to those we criticize, the terms, comparisons, and tone that Amnesty International regularly use in their so-called "reports" does nothing but enable their little-remaining credibility to be lost.


Please explain how the lying, murderous US Government is somehow more trustable than Amnesty International. This should be good...


It is now readily apparent that they have degenerated into nothing more than a left-wing, green party, socialist, anti-American organization of tree-hugging dirt worshippers.


Um, readily apparent to you. Just because they criticize the illegality of keeping people locked up without a trial (like, say, the SOVIETS would do, and CHINA does), you say they are irrelevant?

And yet the US uses Amnesty's reports to try and prove Saddam is PURE EVIL.

Funny how that works, huh? When they have info that proves that another country is violating human rights, they're heroes.

When they have info that proves that the US is violating human rights, they are tree-hugging leftists.


You're funny.


jako



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by Moretti
I'm afraid "Podoherzl"'s eminent works are in vain, since you won't find the denomination "Gulag" anywhere in the report. Fundamental debunking is good, as long as it is addressed at something the report actually contains.


Sorry, that is a fallacious comment. Amnesty Secretary General Irene Kahn stated that "Guantanamo has become the gulag of our times," as if she is comparing the GITMO to the Gulag under the Soviet system. Precisely the point she's driving home in raising "concerns" over the manners of how the US government and military are treating known al Qaeda terrorists and Taliban militants. These people were trained to kill, in capacity of unlawful activities, our government, military personnel and citizens, as they have in the past, something that you're too dense to understand.


If American government, military personnel and civilian falls into the hands of al Qaeda terrorists, they would be more likely to be broadcasted to the world/the Web, then killled/beheaded than to live as prisoners under their hands. At least the detainees at GITMO are still alive, well-fed and well care of, thanks to our "horrible" treatments.
I'm somewhat miffed at the fact they are better treated than the rest of the American prisoners.


Originally posted by Moretti
Torture has never been an effective interrogation tool of suspects. That's why it isnt being used in any law-abiding country. It's only purpose is to humiliate the enemy.


Why do you wanted to go too easy on dangerous terrorists or hardened criminals?


A friend of mine works for a NYC firm consulting the United Nations, this person's a liberal Democrat but grown disgusted at what the UN has become and knew many people who were involved in UN's and US's NGOs such as AI. This is what the person have to say about AI:

The daughter of a very famous Lakota (Sioux founder of AIM and award winning actor) worked for Amnesty. She said the organization was dispicable, irrelevant and totally political. So political that they had favorite nation status for some countries like i.e. Cuba, the then Soviet Union and the Peoples Republic of China along with various South American communist movements.

She said their findings/research were beyond ludicrous. As a Native American, with no love of the American government, but a tremendous love of country, she said that by the time her internship was over, she was a screaming conservative patriot. Her father said Amnesty International was a self serving organization looking for fame and notiriety and accomplishing absolutely nothing.

Natan Sharansky said that in Amnesty's annual reports twenty pages of human rights violations by countries such as Israel and almost twice as many pages devoted to the United States were a definition of said reports. Because democracies have transparent and open societies with information freely given to the likes of Amnesty while totalitarian societies i.e. The People's Republic of China, Iran, Iraq under the Butcher, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Cuba along with every other country in Africa was given but a scant page or two. Why? Because Amnesty couldn't get any information therefore there must be no violations and nothing to report.

Amnesty gives a free pass to countries and nations that could qualify as sewers of human dignity while open and free societies are castigated ad nauseum.


Amnesty International have become too political, too far leaning on the left, openly criticizing democratic, transparent societies like the US, UK, etc on handling terrorists but making scant and weak criticism at the worst human rights violators such as Cuba, China, Iran, North Korea, etc.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 04:35 PM
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You are right on about the Gitmo prisoners being released and then going back to terroirsm. For starters, look up these names: Mamdouh Habib, Slimane Hadj Abderrahmane and Abdullah Mehsud.

And also take in account the people at Gitmo are living better than were they have come from. They were living in caves. Now they get air conditioned mini-condos, newspapers, and eat better than ever.

They're past actions disqualified them from any treatments under they Geneva conventions. They took civilians hostages, fought from Mosques, and didn't wear uniforms so that they blend in with civilians. They conducted terrorist attacks, beheaded Danny Pearl, and tried to assassinate diplomats and policticians numerous times.

As far as not having their day in court, they were offered military tribunals that normal prisoners of war will get. But leftists lawyers argued that they should get civlian trials guaranteed under the US Constitution.

And many did get their day in court and were released. Lawyers like Michael Ratner get terrorists freed from Gitmo so they can go back to Afghanistan and kill doctors, civil engineers and aid workers.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 04:40 PM
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The reasons they don't get their day in court is because a major legal grey area was intentional created by terrorist sympathiezers in America. At the start the Pentagon just wanted military tribunals. But the hate America socialists seized on this and are intentionally stalling the system and trying to free as many terrorists (or freedom fighters) as they can.

Now decisions are being handed down by Federal District Courts that have no jurisdiction over the matter and are not designed to handle military matters.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 07:11 PM
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God you people are despicable.

Get it through your thick skulls not everyone who has been sent to guantanimo was a terrorist! The same way not everyone in Abu Ghraib were guilty of crimes. People as innocent as you and me were imprisoned and tormented.

Its because of people like you the Nazis were able to do the things they did. Its because of people like you that the Soviets got as powerful as they did. Its because people of like you who are so shallow minded that your willing to support any cause as long as its wrapped up in a fog of national pride. You dont care about right and wrong as long as the "enemy" is being dealt with. You don't even care who the enemy is as long as you can be as vindictive as possible. Your nothing but cowards to scared to even contemplate the fact tthat your being mislead.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 07:22 PM
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What I find funny is that in 2003 Donny boy said that anyone who doesn't believe Amnesty Int report that said Saddam killed peopl 2 decades ago is evil, unpatriotic, and will be killed. But now that Amnesty Int is providing things Bush&Co don't like AI is evil, unpatriotic, and will be killed. Strange, in 2003 they give you documents saying Saddam did stuff 2 decades ago, you use this as a new excuse to bomb 100,000+civillians when your WMD and 9/11 connection lies fall through. Now that the reports they give show the GOP to be worse then Saddam, AI is evil and shouldn't be trusted ever. Nice republicans, kill the people you used to explain the illegal war.



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
i dont see how giving Osama bin laden a lawyer paid by American taxpayers is gonna help the Ameircan people.


That's why the world hates America. You don't even know for sure if 9/11 was orchstrated by OBL. My opinion is that America has gone well beyond the acceptable boundaries to pursue the so called freedom and the busuness / greed driven takeover of various countries.

Sorry boss, I am not with you.



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 05:26 PM
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That's why the world hates America. You don't even know for sure if 9/11 was orchstrated by OBL.
He admitted to it. Anyone ever hear of Mohammed Atta, Khaled Sheik Mohammed and Zarqwarias Mussaui?

My opinion is that America has gone well beyond the acceptable boundaries to pursue the so called freedom and the busuness / greed driven takeover of various countries.
Yeah, we just can't wait to get our hands over all that oil. It is so much easier to wage war on another country for oil, versus drilling in ANWAR or off the Gulf of Mexico, which has a lot more oil than in Iraq and is more readily accessible. Idiot.

I guess it must be all those hair women that smell like goats. Either that our the sand.



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 07:22 PM
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Here, I'll make it simple for you all to understand:

If you think they are guilty place them on trial let the courts decide.
Also there's a term called: Self Fulfilling Prophecy (Pygmalion Effect)

To be honest, those three people were probably not terrorists but after several years of being locked away and "tortured" it'd mess your head up. Which is the idea of torture. They probable came out of there hating America so much they became what they thought they were. It happens with children if you tell them they are fat over and over, it can cause weight problems and anorexia nervosa.



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
Here, I'll make it simple for you all to understand:

If you think they are guilty place them on trial let the courts decide.
Also there's a term called: Self Fulfilling Prophecy (Pygmalion Effect)

To be honest, those three people were probably not terrorists but after several years of being locked away and "tortured" it'd mess your head up. Which is the idea of torture. They probable came out of there hating America so much they became what they thought they were. It happens with children if you tell them they are fat over and over, it can cause weight problems and anorexia nervosa.


Yes, the same thing is happening to people who hated America and passing the hatred onto other people and children, providing an environment of intolerance and hatred through constant verbal and mental preaching of anti-American sentiments. Perfect example of "I hate America". Pretty much described the opinions of wisdom-master, boogyman, bodrul, the james_the_lesser and their ilk.
Self-fulfilling prophecy there, odium!



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 08:04 PM
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I think you can believe everything the Bush Administrations says -- except what Bush says.

Dallas



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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the_oleneo will make this short since i am dead tired

is that you have to say?
people who speak out against america are anti american?
dam ur shallow minded ands ewhats with the link to that message board
is it suppose to effect us in some way?



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by the_oleneo
Sorry, that is a fallacious comment. Amnesty Secretary General Irene Kahn stated that "Guantanamo has become the gulag of our times," as if she is comparing the GITMO to the Gulag under the Soviet system. Precisely the point she's driving home in raising "concerns" over the manners of how the US government and military are treating known al Qaeda terrorists and Taliban militants. These people were trained to kill, in capacity of unlawful activities, our government, military personnel and citizens, as they have in the past, something that you're too dense to understand.


If American government, military personnel and civilian falls into the hands of al Qaeda terrorists, they would be more likely to be broadcasted to the world/the Web, then killled/beheaded than to live as prisoners under their hands. At least the detainees at GITMO are still alive, well-fed and well care of, thanks to our "horrible" treatments.
I'm somewhat miffed at the fact they are better treated than the rest of the American prisoners.

So because they are atleast alive that means they dont get ANY rights?



Why do you wanted to go too easy on dangerous terrorists or hardened criminals?


A friend of mine works for a NYC firm consulting the United Nations, this person's a liberal Democrat but grown disgusted at what the UN has become and knew many people who were involved in UN's and US's NGOs such as AI. This is what the person have to say about AI:

The daughter of a very famous Lakota (Sioux founder of AIM and award winning actor) worked for Amnesty. She said the organization was dispicable, irrelevant and totally political. So political that they had favorite nation status for some countries like i.e. Cuba, the then Soviet Union and the Peoples Republic of China along with various South American communist movements.

She said their findings/research were beyond ludicrous. As a Native American, with no love of the American government, but a tremendous love of country, she said that by the time her internship was over, she was a screaming conservative patriot. Her father said Amnesty International was a self serving organization looking for fame and notiriety and accomplishing absolutely nothing.

Natan Sharansky said that in Amnesty's annual reports twenty pages of human rights violations by countries such as Israel and almost twice as many pages devoted to the United States were a definition of said reports. Because democracies have transparent and open societies with information freely given to the likes of Amnesty while totalitarian societies i.e. The People's Republic of China, Iran, Iraq under the Butcher, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Cuba along with every other country in Africa was given but a scant page or two. Why? Because Amnesty couldn't get any information therefore there must be no violations and nothing to report.

Amnesty gives a free pass to countries and nations that could qualify as sewers of human dignity while open and free societies are castigated ad nauseum.


Amnesty International have become too political, too far leaning on the left, openly criticizing democratic, transparent societies like the US, UK, etc on handling terrorists but making scant and weak criticism at the worst human rights violators such as Cuba, China, Iran, North Korea, etc.

Because one person says the orginisation is bad , that means its biased and "left leaning"?
Thank god no ones ever questioned my government like that



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 10:54 PM
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Ad hominem

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument [aimed] at the person", but usually translated as "argument to the man"), is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by addressing the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself or an argument pointing out an inconsistency between a view expressed by an individual and the remainder of his or her beliefs.


taken from: en.wikipedia.org...

if more people here understood how useless ad hominem arguments were, this forum would be a much better place to post.




posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by bodrul
is that you have to say?
people who speak out against america are anti american?
dam ur shallow minded ands ewhats with the link to that message board
is it suppose to effect us in some way?


Yes, that's what I have to say. If you don't like it, don't give me that "USA broke sh*tload of international laws" garbage and take a freaking hike (otherwise, I might put you on "ignore" which is rare in my case).

I cannot stand your wearing horse-blinders while passing off blames on the USA for every woe in the world. You might learn something other than believing in your own anti-American garbages and posting asinine comments like "USA broke sh*tload of international laws".



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
So because they are atleast alive that means they dont get ANY rights?


Does criminals or murderers have rights after they committed actual crimes like defrauding and robbing people or murdering them?

If the shoe was in the other foot: would you suggest that Bush, Cheney and his people have rights as well under imprisonment and awaiting trials for a very long time?


Originally posted by devilwasp
Because one person says the orginisation is bad , that means its biased and "left leaning"?
Thank god no ones ever questioned my government like that


Yes (to the first question). Actually, it is one person and several more came forward to confirm AND affirm everything what the daughter of Lakota founder of AIM have said about Amnesty International and other UN-backed NGOs. The person who works for this firm for the UN have many connections to Native American organizations and activists throughout North America, pretty much described to me in details about how more Native American organizations and activists are finally opening their eyes to the massive deception and propaganda coming from Amnesty International and other NGOs backed by the UN. Amnesty International is closely connected to the Planned Parenthood and Agenda 21, two of the biggest NWO-backed organizations, specifically purposed to reduce world population and manage/sustain/control world resources for the NWO elite.

In a nutshell: Amnesty International is a benign human rights organization as a public facade, a staged group passively promoting human right interests but it is actually established to undermine democratic societies and non-democratic societies to the point of creating external conflict between them (throwing and leveling accusations at each other; pot calling kettle black) and controlling the outcomes of the conflict to the NWO Elite's advantages.



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