Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Only confirming every view that I and others have ever held about the Masons ? It's because of punks like you !

Wow! Truth...THAT sure is "Christian" of you. I'd been following this thread and was interested in contributing, but if you're an example of the kind of Christianity you speak of, I'll pass.

Maybe you shouldn't focus on Masons or Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses and turn your study to Christianity instead of quoting a few scriptures that fit your needs while you act exactly the same way you accuse OTHERS of acting.

[shrug]

Oh...and regarding your "continue..without the help of others" statement...this forum is for ANY member who wants to participate. Even us "punks" which you called Sebat in such a Christ-like manner

[edit on 5-6-2005 by senrak]

Here we go again !!!!!!! Why don't you read it in context !! You would have to read the forums of Sebas for the last two weekes and you would understand.

What was un Christian about my statment of the truth on how I see it and feel it based on the treatment and answers of you and other Masons ?

BY the way yes- Seb is a punk ! and my observation of this has nothing to do with "Christianity" so quit trying to turn this around on me ?

As said before- Masonry has been under scrutney for hundreds of years and you and I both know it. If you ever think you will turn the negatives away you would need to learn how to hold your tongue and open your ears and we could have a discussion.

But so far (NOT ONE) Mason except for AXEMAN has even tried to start an intellegent discussion with me about Masonry and Christianity. And it looks like that discussion will probably not be fostered as well for the exact same reasons.

So with that, If AXEMAN doesn't work out I would like to challenge ANY MASON in a discussion about why CHRISTIANS CANNOT BE MASONS OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

So please sit back and see what transpires in a real two way discussion between ax and myself and leave your christian slams to the pros !

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

Axe- This has alreday turned into a one way discussion here on your side.

Yes it has, because I am answering your questions, and you are not answering mine.

BTW I am not a Mason.

I am not sure what you didn't understand about my outlined questions ?
WE need to answer one thing at a time without jumping ahead with the views that you already have and let me answer the questions. Isn't this how a discussion is suppoosed to happen ?

Maybe you missed this:

Originally posted by The Axeman

Now in response you your answer:

...

Two Simple Questions Regarding Christianity:
b.) We need to ask ourselves what is christianity ?

What happened to a.)?

Christianity is a religion founded on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. (or at least it is supposed to be)

c.) What does it mean to be a christian ?

To me it means that you have accepted and you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the purpose of ensuring that the sins of those who follow him will be forgiven. If you believe this, and you follow his teachings, you are a Christian.

Two simple Questions Regarding Masonry:
d.) Should a true christian compromise his own beliefs to become a Mason ?

Absolutely not. If a man feels he has to compromise his own beliefs to be a Mason, he should not join. Indeed, this is a disqualifier, and if it is apparent that there is a conflict, he will not be accepted and initiated.

e.) Would this be honarble to God or the Masons ?

If it were an issue, then no, it would not be. BUT, seeing as how a man does not compromise his own beliefs to join, this is a moot point.

Lastly: I think that we need to discuss the conflicts of christianity and masonry.

I don't know of any; but I would be interested to know what you think the conflicts are. Facts, please.

You're up, slugger.

[edit on 6/5/05 by The Axeman]

*sigh*

I again (for the third time) ask you how "Masonry has perverted Christianity". I don't know any nicer way to ask you to expand on your answer. I'm not trying to bombard you with questions (as I saw it Axeman asked the same question).

Edit: Please?!?

[edit on 5-6-2005 by Golfie]

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Here we go again !!!!!!! Why don't you read it in context !! You would have to read the forums of Sebas for the last two weekes and you would understand.

I did read it in context and I did read the whole thread. You espouse Christianity and yet you behave in a VERY un-Christian manner.

BY the way yes- Seb is a punk ! and my observation of this has nothing to do with "Christianity"

Of course not. It's un-Christian...how could it?

As said before- Masonry has been under scrutney for hundreds of years and you and I both know it.

Uhm...what's "scrutney?" Is that a vegetable...no, wait, that's CHUTNEY. Hmmm...I'd better put this under some serious scrutiny, don't ya' think?

If you ever think you will turn the negatives away you would need to learn how to hold your tongue and open your ears and we could have a discussion.

Getting a bit hot under the collar there are we? HA HA HA HA That's funny.

But so far (NOT ONE) Mason except for AXEMAN

Actually Axeman's not a Mason yet. Maybe you can "save his soul" before it's too late (Sorry Axe!)

has even tried to start an intellegent discussion with me about Masonry and Christianity. And it looks like that discussion will probably not be fostered as well for the exact same reasons.

So with that, If AXEMAN doesn't work out I would like to challenge ANY MASON in a discussion about why CHRISTIANS CANNOT BE MASONS OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

But the fact of the matter is, they CAN. I'm a Christian and I am a Mason. So they CAN. There's nothing to debate. Masonry does NOT interfere with Christianity.

So please sit back and see what transpires in a real two way discussion between ax and myself and leave your christian slams to the pros !

YOU? A PRO? BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Delusional maybe and a Bible-thumper with no legitimate Biblical education, but HARDLY a Pro! (except in your own mind)


[edit on 5-6-2005 by senrak]

How has Masonry perverted Christianity ?

Simple answer:
One reason is that for one to become a member you need to believe in the masonry god which is not the same God of christianity. Which would mean a christian that wanted to become a member would have to reject or deny his God.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
How has Masonry perverted Christianity ?

Simple answer:
One reason is that for one to become a member you need to believe in the masonry god which is not the same God of christianity. Which would mean a christian that wanted to become a member would have to reject or deny his God.

If you can't do better than that, this discussion is over.

I have already explained that to you, and you are apparently just not getting it.

I just don't think it's going to work out... *sobs*

One more time...

Originally posted by The Axeman
How? What doctrines and theologies are you talking about? Freemasonry doesn't care what religion its members are, so long as they believe in a Supreme Being, and the eternity of the soul... This is not a "perversion" of Christianity. Please explain what you mean, i.e. how does this qualify as a perversion in your mind?

[edit on 6/5/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
How has Masonry perverted Christianity ?

Simple answer:
One reason is that for one to become a member you need to believe in the masonry god which is not the same God of christianity. Which would mean a christian that wanted to become a member would have to reject or deny his God.

C'mon truth.

That's simply not true. When I joined I was asked if I believed in God. I did and I do. I was a Christian then and am a Christian now. I believe in the ONE TRUE GOD. There is no "masonic god" We simply require that a member believe in God...we don't tell him WHAT to believe about God.

I (nor any Mason) EVER rejected or denied God like you said. Your statement is not correct.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
How has Masonry perverted Christianity ?

Simple answer:
One reason is that for one to become a member you need to believe in the masonry god which is not the same God of christianity. Which would mean a christian that wanted to become a member would have to reject or deny his God.

Is this the same god (notice lower case) that we (suposedly) study in Masonry Church?

Having been a Mason for some time now...I've never heard of neither a masonry god nor a masonry church.....Guess I gotta get out more...oh wait maybe it's because they don't exist is why I've not heard of them. No Mason has *ever* told me what God to worship never told me what church to attend...especially since discussion of religion is forbidden in lodge.

What does exist is the God (notice upper case) of the individual Mason. If they are Christian then the Christian God and so forth.

I have on the other hand professed my belief in God (notice upper case, meaning my God the Christian one) to my fellow Masons and for that matter everyone here on this board that's read this thread...Mason and non-Mason alike....

I must be a *very* bad Mason....'cause every night I pray to the Lord Jesus....

So with those things being said could you expand more on the "masonry god" and the "masonry church"

I should say this.....I in no way question your faith. I just truly want to know why you feel this way.

C'mon truth.

That's simply not true. When I joined I was asked if I believed in God. I did and I do. I was a Christian then and am a Christian now. I believe in the ONE TRUE GOD. There is no "masonic god" We simply require that a member believe in God...we don't tell him WHAT to believe about God.

I (nor any Mason) EVER rejected or denied God like you said. Your statement is not correct.


Please understand I am not questioning "your own personal faith" I think that we are not understanding eachother ? What I mean is that to be called a christian you must believe in the 'christian" God right ?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Please understand I am not questioning "your own personal faith" I think that we are not understanding eachother ? What I mean is that to be called a christian you must believe in the 'christian" God right ?

Certainly...and I DO...and I am a Mason and it does not interfere w/ me being a Christian. It's a Brotherhood of ALL men. And God created ALL men and said "Love one another" THAT is what Masonry is about.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Please understand I am not questioning "your own personal faith" I think that we are not understanding eachother ? What I mean is that to be called a christian you must believe in the 'christian" God right ?

Are you even reading my posts?

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Please understand I am not questioning "your own personal faith" I think that we are not understanding eachother ? What I mean is that to be called a christian you must believe in the 'christian" God right ?

Certainly...and I DO...and I am a Mason and it does not interfere w/ me being a Christian. It's a Brotherhood of ALL men. And God created ALL men and said "Love one another" THAT is what Masonry is about.

Did you know that the christian God is not the same god that you are required to believe in within the masonry ?

Don't they require you to believe that there is only one God the Masonry god whom could be named allah, buddah, jesus, or any other god throughout all religions ? correct ?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

Did you know that the christian God is not the same god that you are required to believe in within the masonry ?

Freemasonry does not care which god you worship, provided that according to your personal beliefs He (or She) is the Supreme Being.

Don't they require you to believe that there is only one God the Masonry god whom could be named allah, buddah, jesus, or any other god throughout all religions ? correct ?

There is no "Masonry God". Each individual Mason worships whatever God he normally worships. Why are you having such a hard time with this concept?

Also, are you not able to answer the questions I asked you?

[edit on 6/5/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Did you know that the christian God is not the same god that you are required to believe in within the masonry ?
Don't they require you to believe that there is only one God the Masonry god whom could be named allah, buddah, jesus, or any other god throughout all religions ? correct ?

Truth,

You're getting it all mixed up. Masonry requires that a man believe in ONE God (in other words not several gods) It (Masonry) does not dictate that it be a SPECIFIC God (like this "god of masonry" you keep mentioning)

You're asked..."Do you believe in one God the creator?" Answer: "I do" THAT'S IT! Plain and simple. It's not a specific God, it's YOUR personal God...what YOU PERSONALLY believe about God. As a Christian, I believe in the Tri-une God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). When a prayer is said in the opening or closing of Lodge THAT'S the God I pray to.

I have a question of you....and yes this one is kind of personal....

Do you discriminate against someone who doesn't have the same religous beliefs that you do?

Axeman: I think you have to ask 3x and say please....that worked for me last time.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Reply to Seb- RELAX !! Stop getting so defensive and answering the questions yourself ! Can Axe and Myself disuss ? Is this ok ? Or would you like me to turn away now. Only confirming every view that I and others have ever held about the Masons ? It's because of punks like you !
You have done nothing to add to this at all but expose your own way of thinking ? You will believe what you will and that's it. You are right and everyone else is wrong.

You're the one that needs to relax, buddy. I am doing nothing but playing along to your sorry little game. We asked you questions, and you have done nothing at all to answer them. You are avoiding the question like a kid avoids spinach.

And if you and Axeman want to discuss something, do it privately. The fact that this thread is in a PUBLIC forum means that ANYONE can be included.

It must be real convenient to someone like you to call me a punk and assume all masons are the same way. I have done NOTHING to you, except ask you why you even bothered to U2U me and tell me that I have rejected Christ and that I worship a false God. And you can't even tell us why you think so!

Now you are going to use ME as an excuse to end this conversation. Real convenient, isn't it!?!?

You asked me a question and I did in fact answer it compeletely

How did you answer the question!?!?! You did absolutely NOTHING to answer! You're completely dodging the questions, and now using me as an excuse to end the conversation! Tell us DIRECTLY WHY you think Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity. Why do Freemasons reject Christ? Why do Freemasons worship a false God?

All you have to do is answer these questions! You claimed this, it shouldn't be hard for you to explain yourself! Unless of course you were just repeatinng what some other Anti-mason said, without actually even knowing the reasons behind it...? But Nah! You wouldn't do that, would you?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Don't they require you to believe that there is only one God the Masonry god whom could be named allah, buddah, jesus, or any other god throughout all religions ? correct ?

That is incorrect. Freemasonry requires you to believe in your own personal God. For a Christian mason, he is required to believe in God Almighty. A muslim mason must believe in Allah. A buddhist mason must believe in buddha. Masons must believe in ANY God, but there is no "God of masonry".

The Great Architect of the Universe is simply an embodiment of whoever the individual mason's God is. It is a way for all masons to refer to God in a non-denominational way.

Originally posted by Golfie
Axeman: I think you have to ask 3x and say please....that worked for me last time.

He didn't answer the question though!

Truth, this is a discussion board. I'm trying to get you to explain yourself, this is not just between me and you. There are several here that would like to see what you have to say regarding the questions we have put forth. If you want to discuss, then discuss. If you feel like you need people to back you up, well then find some. I'll ask them the same questions.

If you want an intelligent discussion, then discuss the issues intelligently. You have done nothing but repeated your general stance on the issue without providing the personal reasons why you believe what you believe to be true. You are dodging questions that have been posed directly to you. If you can't answer these questions, then you have no business debating this issue.

[edit on 6/6/05 by The Axeman]

Truthisoutthere

Member

Registered: 3/7/05


Mood: Justgettenstart
Member was on ATS
17 minutes ago.

Did you give up, Truth?

It's interesting how you were all set to have an intelligent, mature discussion, yet when the discussion starts, you choose to ignore the questions asked of you, or answer them in the vaguest way possible.

Are you no longer prepared to debate this issue? If not, I think that counts as a forfeit, wouldn't you say?

Answer the questions, or admit that you can't and that you have no real reason to believe that Freemasonry is in conflict with Christianity.

Be a man.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
So please sit back and see what transpires in a real two way discussion between ax and myself and leave your christian slams to the pros !

What happened to the two way discussion?! All I've seen in this thread between me and you is you accusing, me rebutting, you asking questions (while ignoring mine), me answering them, and at the same time restating my questions, you dodging them again while throwing a tantrum about being all alone in this thread, me reiterating my questions again, and then you totally ignoring me.

Is that your idea of a two way discussion?!

[edit on 6/6/05 by The Axeman]

Hey AXE,

Sorry about that, I actually have a life and am involved in other things besides ATS. Just becuse I cannot answer you right away doesn't mean that I bailed out on you guys.

It's ok for others to get involved but they are jumping ahead and just trying to stir things up. And as a matter of fact I can do this on my own without the backing, but I dont' have a lot of free time. I apologize if this will be a problem for discussion purposes.

However If you would like, I would even like to extend the offer to accomplish this on a one on one basis through u2u's so that we ( U and Me ) can actually have a discussion without hinderances.

If you would still like to learn the "truth" lets continue. But like I said you guys need to relax. You guys are always on the defensive ? Why ? Could you please tell me without the all the bretheren jumping in ? I am just trying to understand ?

To answer your question "'again" I will try to put into an easier format for all to understand:

If in fact you are a TRUE christian ( Which I was trying to get you too aknowlege and explain on your own understanding as to "what a TRUE christian actually is ) You cannot be a Mason.

SIMPLE FACTS- 1.) The god of Freemasonry is not the God of the Bible. The Masonic concept of God is directly refuted by scripture.

2.) Freemasonry has a false plan of salvation which is based on a savior other than Jesus Christ. Which means if you accept the God of Freemasonry you are in fact denying the God of your TRUE christian faith.

a.) How ? By taking the oath ! Does anyone remember the masonry oath ? Would anyone object to me showing the oath of Freemasonry to prove my point ?

or will someone be honest enough to admit the fact that that they where or believe that they were or are in fact a christian and they took the oath anyway ? When you did, you rejected the GOD of Christianity !

If in fact you did this you can not be a christian ( or you made a huge mistake without realizing it? which is possible. ) because you have denied the living TRUE GOD that has NO TOLERANCE for other gods.

If a man understands the true nature of God through scripture and the nature of false gods as revealed in the teachings of pagan religions, he would have the basic information to know that the god of masonry is not the God of the Bible.

If anyone accepts the GAOTU god of Feemasonry they are in fact rejecting the Christ of Chritianity.

Freemasonry teaches that ALL of it's membrs are REQUIRED to believe that there is one God. The god of all religions ? (Which in turn is paganism) This pagan god uses a variety of different names like I had mentioned: allah, budda etc...... This goes against ALL the teachings of Christ !

Therefore if you believe in the God of Freemasonry- You CANNOT believe in JESUS CHRIST-THEREFORE you are not a christian. Very simple.

God is very specific in his teachings so if one was a TRUE christian he would not be deceived in the first place.

But if you are a christian that means that you read the bible to fully understand and deepen your faith in HIM. The ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD ! The Trinity, God the Head- the creator, Jesus- the body HIS son in the flesh and the Holy Spirit-Spirit of Truth, Protection, Healing etc......

There is no two ways about it. If you have chosen to worship the God of Freemasonry you WILL NOT achieve salvation. This is Gods words not mine. If you deny and not read the TRUTH ( The Bible ) and not find the answers and truth that is your own personal fault. You have knowone else to blame BUT YOURSELF.) But if in fact you are a TRUE christian you WILL find the TRUTH if you search ( The Bible-The Book of Christianity) and pray the truth will be revealed to you.

A TRUE christian reads and accepts and aknowledges the Truth in scipture the bible. You did say, or someone said that they were a christain Mason right ?

My question is: How can you possibly have sold your soul to this God of masonry if in fact you are a TRUE christian as you say. If a TRUE CHRISTIAN that knows the scripture has rejected Christ to worship, believe, trust or whatever the god of masonry, he has in fact sold his soul to another.

If someone who calls himself a christian (Which a lot of people do without knowing what a christian actually is) falls and slips into this sharade and deception of the Masons you still have hope in Jesus. But you will have to research this on your own because I am trying to conduct this without the use of sciptures as much as possible for this forum.

But then again: If we all say that we are christians-why wouldn't we use the sciptures to point out the flaws and deception of the masonic church ?

I hope and pray that I will get a positive response as to an intellegent question that you will form on your own thinking ! Thanks for reading !


Your turn AXE !

Thanks !

The Truth