POLITICS: Kansas Debate Challenges Science Itself

The Kansas school beards hearings have moved beyond the debate regarding the teaching of the theory of evolution. The boards is now considering a re-definition of science itself. Advocates pushing intelligent design are pushing to have the board redefine science itself.



As I stated in an op/ed a while back, the religious right wing having failed to get may front line candidates election tried the back door. The number of school boards the "god" minded individuals hold is staggering. If this does come to pass it will be interesting to see if a graduate from say Kansas University (Rock Chalk Jayhawk My Parents Alma Mater) will be able to get a job outside of the state with thier education system.

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The Kansas school beards hearings have moved beyond the debate regarding the teaching of the theory of evolution

What a surprise. True to form, as detailed by the NCSE, they start talking about Intelligent Design being a legitimate science, then when they get it on the table and under review, its all about the bible and science is false.

[url=http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/wedge.htmlThe Wedge Document[/url], cracking up the wall between a church run world and regular secular governments.

[edit on 19-5-2005 by Nygdan]

Only in the middle of America.

What about seperation of church and state?

This is a mockery to any intelligent person when a widely accepted concept thats true is thrown out in favor of a fairy tale that is anything but provable.

What's next? Are they going to start taching that the Earth is the center of the universe and everything else revolves around it again.

As a science minded person I find this debate and how far is has gotten in our modern world shameful and saddening.

I propose a solution, anyone so adamently against the Darwinian view of natural selection should leave the public school system and start their own schools. Public schools are here to educate not lead people back to their dark ages.

It also cracks me up that people are so hung up on the intelligent design as applied to biology -- because that's something their limited intelligence can easily perceive. There are a lot more mysterious phenomena in the physics world, than bats having ultrasonic ears.

Let's boycott Kansas already.

Man o Man, mark this day down on your calendar!
I actually agree with Nygdan on this!
On the earlier threads, I argued on the basis that the students should be able to ask questions and receive answers or directions from a teacher without it being considered a "confrontational situation".

If the issue had not strayed from that then I would still back them, now well...... sorry

So Supernatural explanations are now acceptable in Science classes if this goes through? Well I hate to say it but America is going towards a Third World country status if it even entertains debate like this. Sickening really. Are they also going to challenge the Einstiens Theories and produce some "alternative theories" that includes a divine creator? Man I can't wait to hear the Justifications the Fundamentalist Fanatics will come up with about this travesty.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Man o Man, mark this day down on your calendar!
I actually agree with Nygdan on this!
On the earlier threads, I argued on the basis that the students should be able to ask questions and receive answers or directions from a teacher without it being considered a "confrontational situation".

If the issue had not strayed from that then I would still back them, now well...... sorry

I would have to agree with you here. As a believer and a 'lay' proponent of intelligent design, i say a change in the definition of science is ridiculous. Let us bring our evidence to the table under the same criteria as anybody else has to.

The original problem(as i understand it) came from teachers' boycott of any classroom discussion on the subject....i didn't realize they were adopting a change science and throw out evolutionary theory stance. No wonder no one takes us seriously.

It should be noted that not all of us agree with what these creationists are doing, and i for one have no need to disprove evolution in order to believe in GOD. I have many questions and enjoy the debate(when its civil) but i like to think i'm humble enough to know i don't know everything, and try to keep my mind open.

I would not have as much of problem with Intelligent Design if they focused more on proving their theory rather than trying to disprove evolution. Everything I have read on it always has lines like this, "Unlike evolution" or "Evolution thinks this". Give it it's own bloody feet. Let it try to stand on it's own.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Man o Man, mark this day down on your calendar!
I actually agree with Nygdan on this!

What? I can't hear you over this strange horde of flying locusts that rose up all of a sudden. Eww, why are the rivers all red and sticky now?

Hmm intelligent design eh?

We've seen that homosexuals brains respond differently to human pheromones which implies a biological difference. Does that mean the almighty, in his intelligent design, created the homosexual nature of humans? Infact intelligent design seems to be the clearest answer to homosexuality as evolution needs reproduction.

Have they really thought this "science" through? I seem to think they havent

Well, hold on subz. I'm pretty sure if you study the brain reactions to a guy who loves beer and a guy who despises beer, you will perhaps find different reactions to it being waffed in front of their nose. Perhaps repulsion and excitement are not controlled by the same portions of the brain.

Alright, as stated, they are "22 Scientists" what is that?

"In math they teach 2+2=4, but really 2+2=22. Look, tak a 2, put it next to another 2, 22! Throw out 2+2=4 and replace it with 2+2=22. Also, 22-2=2, not 20."

In other words, they are full of it and need to be stopped. Wait, I forgot, they can kill anyone they like through terroristic means like bombing places and shooting people, but if you even think against them then you are going to hell.

the whole religion in schools thing is a big play by a few really loud people...
and it all started with the ficticious rumors of prayer in school not being allowed...
I remember that prayer in school was never an issue as long as they included the words... "or quiet meditation"

the whole rabble started with the prayer issue never really being a problem, but a few ignorant whinning ninnys decided they wanted everyone to pray... and of course that wasn't going to happen... then you have a few christian principals that decide that they will have a christian school (public)...

ANY one who thinks thier religion is superior to any other and wants to force others to beleive it, is making the mistake that they accuse others of...
it needs to be an OPEN option always...
you can or you can't... not mandated

science is for the classroom... religion is for the sunday school room...
never should they meet....

if a parent group advocates for teaching creationism vs evolution...fine... take them to church... but don't hold back everyone elses kid by insisting they also should be taught ignorance, instead of science...

BTW... my christian beliefs also don't conflict with evolution, because i don't think anyone was around during the prehistoriuc times to record how long the earth took to form (hence the word "prehistoric")... and i don't recall it being said by god or jesus in the new testiment...
the book is good, but it does have errors, and it has already been added to and taken away from... which was a true violation... so we have to admit that the bible isn't perfect anymore... too many early catholic hands have steered it the way they wanted... much like the jews did to the old testiment...
that is why one god has three religions...

Originally posted by OXmanK
Well, hold on subz. I'm pretty sure if you study the brain reactions to a guy who loves beer and a guy who despises beer, you will perhaps find different reactions to it being waffed in front of their nose. Perhaps repulsion and excitement are not controlled by the same portions of the brain.

So? It still implies a biological response to something. My argument is that if God created humans then he must of created the biological response homosexuals have when they smell the pheromone of the same sex.

If homosexuality was completely a man made construct and our bodies were created by inteligent design then we should not be able to modify our biology in a way God didnt design. If a homosexuals biological response is due to their own desires then doesnt that show that we have the power to alter our own biology? Thus directly contradicting "intelligent design" or the dogma that God hates gays? They cant have this both ways and the irony is delicious

If a homosexuals biological response is due to their own desires then doesnt that show that we have the power to alter our own biology?

Wow. Intersting arguement. If supernatural design shows intent of the creator, then god made homosexual homosexual, so long as there is a biological basis for their attraction, and indeed, even if there wasn't, there's still the arguement that the human psyche, which is certainly irreducibly Complex if anything else is, in some cases was designed to be gay. Intruiging.

nygdan:
so long as there is a biological basis for their attraction, and indeed, even if there wasn't, there's still the arguement that the human psyche, which is certainly irreducibly Complex if anything else is, in some cases was designed to be gay. Intruiging.

SO now there's a 'gay gene'? When does being gay become a designed quality. In all your studies in evolution have you ever found a natural explanation of this, it's my understanding that we've mapped the human genome, no? Then you argue it's in their head and therefore designed makes no sense IMO.

There is also a large amount of evidence that birth control and other pills could influence the development of a "gay" fetus if the mother didn't now she was pregnant and continued to use the pills during the first trimester...


effect of prescription drugs on sexual determinacy

Originally posted by Nygdan
Wow. Intersting arguement.

Thanks, it is quite a simple argument and I'll try and break it right down for my own benefit more than anything else.

Intelligent Design

- God creates humans
- God creates our biology (assumedly reflecting his values)
- Some humans are gay
- Gays have a biological response to the scent of same sex
- Implies either:
a) God designed a humans biology to be gay (God loves gays)
b) we can alter our own biology to something God didnt want (no intelligent design afterall)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 20/5/05 by subz]

There is also a large amount of evidence that birth control and other pills could influence the development of a "gay" fetus if the mother didn't now she was pregnant and continued to use the pills during the first trimester...

I am not saying you cannot be born GAY(i honestly don't know). THE examples you give is how medicine can change the design, correct? Even in evolution its a mutation(not sure correct term here), ie not beneficial and wouldn't be carried to next generation(assuming no bi-sexuality).

Simple fact is we don't really know why someone is gay or bi, could be many many different reasons, for some its from birth for some its later in life for some they are equally attracted to either sex. And anyone of those could have different 'causes'. I simply don't know(IMO nobody does) and subz your 'simple argument' is rather obtuse and lacking in any real understanding of ID theory.

Rren you'll just have to take my theory on faith as I have quite as much proof to back up my theory as those pushing Intelligent Design have

The only difference being I use a logical thought process instead of having the "answer" and working backwards to try and give it justication.

[edit on 20/5/05 by subz]