How the myth of the 33rd degree "upper-echelon" Freemasons came to be

Originally posted by siriuslyone
Question:

Was/is it a total fabrication that Aleister Crowley was made a 33rd degree Mason?

I dont know if it was a fabrication or a mistake, as there is a picture of Crowley wearing 33rd degree regalia. But, he was never MADE a 33rd degree mason, and was actually never made a REAL mason either. He was initiated by an irregular lodge.

>>I dont know if it was a fabrication or a mistake, as there is a picture of Crowley wearing 33rd degree regalia. But, he was never MADE a 33rd degree mason, and was actually never made a REAL mason either. He was initiated by an irregular lodge.

Originally posted by siriuslyone
Without giving away any secrets, can you give me an idea of what an irregular lodge is?

yes. freemasonry is actually an organization comprised of many grand lodges, which control all the lodges within their jurisdiction. all these grand lodges are "in recognition" with each other, meaning that they recognize the other grand lodges, and the local lodges in their jurisdictions, as being masonic. MOST grand lodges trace their lineage back to the Grand Lodge of England.

But every once in a while, a masonic body pops up without being created as part of a grand lodge, and therefore it is called "irregular", because it is not recognized by any other grand lodges. These masons are, technically, illegally practising Freemasonry. regular masons are forbidden to associate with these irregular lodges and irregular masons.

sometimes, also, a lodge which once was regular, might change something about itself (like admit atheists or women), which will cause other lodge to no longer officially recognize it as being masonic, and therefore this lodge has now become irregular.

Hope that didnt confuse you too much.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by siriuslyone
Without giving away any secrets, can you give me an idea of what an irregular lodge is?

yes. freemasonry is actually an organization comprised of many grand lodges, which control all the lodges within their jurisdiction. all these grand lodges are "in recognition" with each other, meaning that they recognize the other grand lodges, and the local lodges in their jurisdictions, as being masonic. MOST grand lodges trace their lineage back to the Grand Lodge of England.

But every once in a while, a masonic body pops up without being created as part of a grand lodge, and therefore it is called "irregular", because it is not recognized by any other grand lodges. These masons are, technically, illegally practising Freemasonry. regular masons are forbidden to associate with these irregular lodges and irregular masons.

sometimes, also, a lodge which once was regular, might change something about itself (like admit atheists or women), which will cause other lodge to no longer officially recognize it as being masonic, and therefore this lodge has now become irregular.

Hope that didnt confuse you too much.

Not at all, I come from a Masonic Dad, and he used to be so unkind to me when I would ask about his apron and all the things he had in a trunk..If fact, he was unkind to me in particular..
He told me once that I was NEVER to marry nor date any man whose Father was a Mason..is this true?
I think one of the reason for my interests and beliefs today come from a 6 year old who wanted some answers...

Originally posted by siriuslyone
Not at all, I come from a Masonic Dad, and he used to be so unkind to me when I would ask about his apron and all the things he had in a trunk..If fact, he was unkind to me in particular..
He told me once that I was NEVER to marry nor date any man whose Father was a Mason..is this true?
I think one of the reason for my interests and beliefs today come from a 6 year old who wanted some answers...

I'm sorry your dad was unkind to you, that's sucky. I don't know why he would tell you not to marry someone who's dad was a mason. I would think it would be the other way around. Normally, masons PREFER to relate to other masons. Masons tend to trust each other more, and know what each other's values and beliefs are.

Please feel free to ask me anything you want regarding Freemasonry. There's not much that I can't talk about, so don't worry about that. If you're curious about anything, I will help you find the answer

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by siriuslyone
Not at all, I come from a Masonic Dad, and he used to be so unkind to me when I would ask about his apron and all the things he had in a trunk..If fact, he was unkind to me in particular..
He told me once that I was NEVER to marry nor date any man whose Father was a Mason..is this true?
I think one of the reason for my interests and beliefs today come from a 6 year old who wanted some answers...

I'm sorry your dad was unkind to you, that's sucky. I don't know why he would tell you not to marry someone who's dad was a mason. I would think it would be the other way around. Normally, masons PREFER to relate to other masons. Masons tend to trust each other more, and know what each other's values and beliefs are.

Please feel free to ask me anything you want regarding Freemasonry. There's not much that I can't talk about, so don't worry about that. If you're curious about anything, I will help you find the answer

Thank you..in fact, I just remembered something he did that I was NEVER to speak of..he left the Masons, saying that something had happened that he could not agree to, so he quit in a 'certain' year, that was the strange thing..
Since then, I have found out, there was a choice he had to make with his children, and I was the one he chose..I cannot relate this in open forum, but my dad was not a fool nor ignorant, so my Mom tried to make up for his favoritism to my sister, but he and I could never stay in one place too long, we were like fire and water....I have many questions...

Just a few comments and questions i wanted to pose

Originally posted by akilles
Please, Rosicrucians, share the depth of your wisdom!

maybe you guys can share your views on what Rose-Mary's Baby has to do with symbolism, (ie. why were the names, Rose and Mary chosen), as well as Rose Red, in Snow White?

since it seems the question is loaded why dont you tell us all what you akilles in your deepest of wisdom think the symbolism of these movie names is.

SECOND... for one of the Masons here who would care to answer. I have been interested in joining freemasonry for most of my life, something about the ideas you guys talk about draws me, but thats not the point lol unfortunately as im 19 years old and not 21 for little more than a year cant actually petition a lodge yet. I was going to join demolay but they were very young and i felt like id be a weird old kid in the boy scouts. My question well i have two but the first are there exceptions to the age requirement?

My second question is that i always hear you guys talk about grand lodges, are the worshipful masters of these lodges in contact, in say some larger body, a "global grand lodge" if you will? Dont mean to sound like a troll im just curious. Thanks in advance.

-aero

[edit on 11-5-2005 by Aero]

Originally posted by Aero
SECOND... for one of the Masons here who would care to answer. I have been interested in joining freemasonry for most of my life, something about the ideas you guys talk about draws me, but thats not the point lol unfortunately as im 19 years old and not 21 for little more than a year cant actually petition a lodge yet. I was going to join demolay but they were very young and i felt like id be a weird old kid in the boy scouts. My question well i have two but the first are there exceptions to the age requirement?

My second question is that i always hear you guys talk about grand lodges, are the worshipful masters of these lodges in contact, in say some larger body, a "global grand lodge" if you will? Dont mean to sound like a troll im just curious. Thanks in advance.

Hey Aero! Glad to hear someone younger than I would like to be a mason! I joined when I was 24, and thought that was WAY young. I dont know what the rules are where you live, but here in California, you have to be 21 to join. I think if you dad was a mason, then you can ask to have the requirement dropeed to 18, but otherwise you must wait.

As for your second question, all local lodges are constantly in contact with the Grand Lodge under which they are holden. In the United States, there is a Grand Lodge for each of the 50 states, plus one for Puerto Rico. There is no GLOBAL Grand Lodge in Freemasonry, just many Grand Lodges from different jurisdictions, which are all in recognition with each other.

In California, a local lodge must constantly submit forms and applications and dues and proficiencies to the Grand Lodge representatives. For each masonic district (every four lodges I believe), there is one representative, who is the District inspector. He makes sure the local lodges are functioning according to Grand lodge requirements.

I wish you the best of luck in your masonic career. Please visit this forum and let us know how things progress. And, of course, if you ever have any questiions, dont hesitate to ask.

Originally posted by siriuslyone
Thank you..in fact, I just remembered something he did that I was NEVER to speak of..he left the Masons, saying that something had happened that he could not agree to, so he quit in a 'certain' year, that was the strange thing..
Since then, I have found out, there was a choice he had to make with his children, and I was the one he chose..I cannot relate this in open forum, but my dad was not a fool nor ignorant, so my Mom tried to make up for his favoritism to my sister, but he and I could never stay in one place too long, we were like fire and water....I have many questions...

OK, now THAT sounds very odd. We are constantly told, in lodge, that Freemasonry should NEVER come before our families. In fact, a lodge would be VERY unhappy to hear that a mason is forsaking his family duties in order to be at the lodge. So that sounds very strange to me. Would you care to elaborate via U2U?

Admit your true age, and they will tell you the truth about exceptions (only if there is a Mason in your family already).

Global grand lodge. Wow, buddy. You are on a conspiracy forum. You do realize they are going to say no lodge is connected with any other lodge, but they 'recognize' each other.

There maybe a lot in common between lodges, but there is no central lodge that gives 'orders' or that people 'report' to.


"since it seems the question is loaded why dont you tell us all what you akilles in your deepest of wisdom think the symbolism of these movie names is. "

And lastly, how the fuu uk would you know if the question is loaded, if you are not a Rosicrucian and the question is not directed at you? Stop trying to impress the first people you hope will accept you in your whole life.


[edit on 11-5-2005 by akilles]

Originally posted by akilles
And lastly, how the fuu uk would you know if the question is loaded, if you are not a Rosicrucian and the question is not directed at you? Stop trying to impress the first people you hope will accept you in your whole life.

That was a little harsh, dontcha think Akilles?

Originally posted by siriuslyone
He told me once that I was NEVER to marry nor date any man whose Father was a Mason..is this true?

That is highly irregular.

Originally posted by akilles
Please, Rosicrucians, share the depth of your wisdom!

maybe you guys can share your views on what Rose-Mary's Baby has to do with symbolism, (ie. why were the names, Rose and Mary chosen), as well as Rose Red, in Snow White?

What do you wish to know? Im not sure I understand your question about Rose-mary's baby and symbolism.

I hereby promise the Great Spirit Lucifuge, Prince of Demons, that each year I will bring unto him a human soul to do with as as it may please him, and in return Lucifuge promises to bestow upon me the treasures of the earth and fulfil my every desire for the length of my natural life. If I fail to bring him each year the offering specified above, then my own soul shall be forfeit to him. Signed.....[ Invocant signs pact with his own blood ] ; page CIV.

quote: The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry' by Manly Palmer Hall 33°

When The Mason learns that the Key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the Mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy. page 48.

May I say here I have been a student of Manly Hall and the Lucis Trust for many years and it is the hardest thing I have ever done to be accepted into The Trust, took me 15 years,,was a Rosicrucian, but it was not for me.
In saying this, the Trust has been accused of luciferian work, but for me and mine, we do not recognize lucifer in any form.
BUT, when/ if the "burning bush" Manly Palmer Hall makes a quote, I can/do believe it as if it comes from G-d..see above....no flamers, the man was anointed by the Universe...

Originally posted by siriuslyone
I hereby promise the Great Spirit Lucifuge, Prince of Demons, that each year I will bring unto him a human soul to do with as as it may please him, and in return Lucifuge promises to bestow upon me the treasures of the earth and fulfil my every desire for the length of my natural life. If I fail to bring him each year the offering specified above, then my own soul shall be forfeit to him. Signed.....[ Invocant signs pact with his own blood ] ; page CIV.

What exactly is the above quote actually of?

Originally posted by akilles
...
Global grand lodge. Wow, buddy. You are on a conspiracy forum. You do realize they are going to say no

...


And lastly, how the fuu uk would you know if the question is loaded, if you are not a Rosicrucian and the question is not directed at you? Stop trying to impress the first people you hope will accept you in your whole life.

[edit on 11-5-2005 by akilles]

Global grand lodge, yes ill admit it was a crude way of putting it, but i dont see how it would be stupid to ask A FREEMASON about the fraternity he is ACTUALLY A MEMBER OF. It seemed logical that all the lodges may meet in an attempt to keep their ritual uniform. I wouldnt ask you a question about freemasonry unless i wanted a bias campfire story about how reptillian shapeshifters run the world. Factual information on the subject, ill let the masons answer those questions.

Well akilles im not going to get into an arguement over "whose more popular" with you, (you must be right im an outsider in society and nobody likes me ) but how did i know the question was loaded? Seems to me you were just foaming at the mouth to get a RC to give you an "incorrect" interpretation of the symbolism you think you see. Im looking for acceptance? not particularly, but of course you would know because you come to internet forums from your menial job making minimum wage in an attempt to discredit an organization that has nothing to do with you because they stop you from moving up the ladder right? Why didnt you get that raise? Must be the freemasons! Oh and my "real" age? Im 20.

With that you can kindly keep your useless comments to yourself.

-aero



[edit on 13-5-2005 by Aero]

Originally posted by Aero
It seemed logical that all the lodges may meet in an attempt to keep their ritual uniform.

That was tried in the early 1800's in the United States, but nothing came of it. Each Grand Lodge is a sovereign body, although they are in "fraternal recognition" with one another....and the ritual is FAR from uniform. It varies from state to state and in some states (Kentucky for example which has no "official Kentucky Ritual" it can vary from Lodge to Lodge) The same is true in other parts of the world. Many assume that the so-called "Emulation" work is THE ritual in Great Britain, but as some of our Brethren from there can attest...it's quite similar in most places, but not "uniform" by any stretch of the imagination.

One of the many things that makes Freemasonry fascinating to me...and one of the reasons I enjoy collecting and studying Masonic (and other fraternal society) rituals.

Regards

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by Veriter
i guess each order could have its own principles. i have come to overstand the highest level is the freezing point. 32 degrees. at that point they open the coffin and show you the baby...and tell you the truth of your origin.

You obviously have a very poor understanding of Freemasonry.

Nothing of the sort happens in ANY degree...not the 1st, not the 3rd, not the 32nd and not the 33rd. Period.

Silly nonsense.

quite the contrary mon frere...dont judge based on one post..Peter Hamilton, a well-known and respected sociolgist, writes the following in Modernity, "In Britian, Edmund Burke..., a political theorist of the Whig pary, put foward what was to be an influential conservative interpretation of the Enlightenment, which saw it as an intellectual or philosophic conspiracy, formented by a literary cabal, and designed to destroy Christianity, and in the process bring down the French state. To support his case he used the example of the Bavarian Illuminati. There had been a notorious conspiracy by a group of Enlightenment-influenced intellectuals in Bavaria-the Illuminati- to use Freemasonry to bring down the Church-dominated government of the German principality in 1787"..you can believe what you want but please do not twist the truth..and by the way i dont even believe you are a traveling man. Have you seen the baby?

Originally posted by Veriter

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by Veriter
i guess each order could have its own principles. i have come to overstand the highest level is the freezing point. 32 degrees. at that point they open the coffin and show you the baby...and tell you the truth of your origin.

You obviously have a very poor understanding of Freemasonry.

Nothing of the sort happens in ANY degree...not the 1st, not the 3rd, not the 32nd and not the 33rd. Period.

Silly nonsense.

quite the contrary mon frere...dont judge based on one post..Peter Hamilton, a well-known and respected sociolgist, writes the following in Modernity, "In Britian, Edmund Burke..., a political theorist of the Whig pary, put foward what was to be an influential conservative interpretation of the Enlightenment, which saw it as an intellectual or philosophic conspiracy, formented by a literary cabal, and designed to destroy Christianity, and in the process bring down the French state. To support his case he used the example of the Bavarian Illuminati. There had been a notorious conspiracy by a group of Enlightenment-influenced intellectuals in Bavaria-the Illuminati- to use Freemasonry to bring down the Church-dominated government of the German principality in 1787"..you can believe what you want but please do not twist the truth..and by the way i dont even believe you are a traveling man. Have you seen the baby?

Nobody doubted what you say about the Bavarian Illuminati, that is OBVIOUSLY true. But nothing regarding a baby in a coffin ever happens in any degree. It's quite funny when you jackasses actually try to say that we are not real masons. I know for a fact that Senrak is a brother, and one of the most well-informed I have ever had the pleasure to speak with. Funny funny, how would you recognize a mason if you came across one?

And, by the way, please don't use the term "Travelling man". That is reserved for Master Masons to use. Thank you.


[edit on 13-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Veriter

.........and by the way i dont even believe you are a traveling man. Have you seen the baby?

HAHAHA I'm not sure any Freemason or anyone for that matter has "seen the baby" of which you speak.

People never cease to amaze. Just about the time you thought you had heard it all .........