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How the myth of the 33rd degree "upper-echelon" Freemasons came to be

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posted on May, 13 2005 @ 12:49 PM
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[big quote bad - nygdan]

im obviously talking to the wrong person because you seem clueless as to who your god really is. Do you believe in God? Which God? Actually dont even bother answering. Jackasses? OK..whatever makes you feel better. How would i recognise one? If you dont know why would i tell you? I can tell you how to recognize a shriner..but then again you would probably not believe me. Yes the baby thing is quite funny..haha...
wake up and live



[edit on 19-5-2005 by Nygdan]




posted on May, 13 2005 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by Veriter
im obviously talking to the wrong person because you seem clueless as to who your god really is. Do you believe in God? Which God? Actually dont even bother answering. Jackasses? OK..whatever makes you feel better. How would i recognise one? If you dont know why would i tell you? I can tell you how to recognize a shriner..but then again you would probably not believe me. Yes the baby thing is quite funny..haha...
wake up and live


[YAWN]... another boring anti-mason. You guys are so played out. Believe me, I know how to recognize my own brethren. What I'm trying to say is that you apparently don't. And thank you, I also know how to recognize a Shriner. We are, after all, brothers.



posted on May, 13 2005 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by Veriter
..... OK..whatever makes you feel better. How would i recognise one? If you dont know why would i tell you? I can tell you how to recognize a shriner..but then again you would probably not believe me. Yes the baby thing is quite funny..haha...
wake up and live


I always waited until I seen a fat man on a Honda 50 with a funny hat riding in circles in the parade then I knew he was definitely a Shriner


[edit on 13-5-2005 by mrfixit]


Cug

posted on May, 13 2005 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by Driver
Lucerferian quotes from 33rd degree Masons.

The Book Of Black Magic' by Arthur Edward Waite 33°

First Conjuration Addressed to Emperor Lucifer. Emperor Lucifer, Master and Prince of Rebellious Spirits, I adjure thee to leave thine abode, in what-ever quarter of the world it may be situated and come hither to communicate with me. I command and I conjure thee in the Name of the Mighty Living God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, to appear without noise and without ....; page 244.



FWIW The Book Of Black Magic is not the work of AE Waite. He was the translator/editor of the old magical texts he put in the book and published. They are in no way quotes of AE Waite.


Originally posted by siriuslyone
Question:

Was/is it a total fabrication that Aleister Crowley was made a 33rd degree Mason?


A bit on Crowley's masonic connections.

The first one was a 33rd granted to him in Mexico (1901) by Don Jesus Medina. From all accounts this small masonic offshot really didn't impress Crowley "it did not add much of importance to my knowledge of the mysteries;" (From the confessions)

Next in Paris he joined the Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343 under the Grande Loge de France in 1904 (an order not recognized but the grand lodge of England)

Crowley next got a 33rd for the 'Cerneau' Scottish Rite from John Yarker in 1910. (Who was expelled from the Grand Lodge of England in 1870. but Yarker still argued vigorously on the legitimacy of his order.) along with the 95° of the Rite of Memphis and 90° of the Rite of Misraim.

Crowley tried several times to get recognized but the Grand Lodge of England.. but never succeeded, due in part to some internal politics of several sorts.

So Yes Crowley was a mason.. but he wasnt a (c)Mason (tm)



posted on May, 13 2005 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by Veriter

quite the contrary mon frere...dont judge based on one post..Peter Hamilton, a well-known and respected sociolgist, writes the following in Modernity, "In Britian, Edmund Burke..., a political theorist of the Whig pary, put foward what was to be an influential conservative interpretation of the Enlightenment, which saw it as an intellectual or philosophic conspiracy, formented by a literary cabal, and designed to destroy Christianity, and in the process bring down the French state. To support his case he used the example of the Bavarian Illuminati. There had been a notorious conspiracy by a group of Enlightenment-influenced intellectuals in Bavaria-the Illuminati- to use Freemasonry to bring down the Church-dominated government of the German principality in 1787"


Does any of that B.S. actually MEAN anything? Or have you been drinking?



..you can believe what you want but please do not twist the truth..and by the way i dont even believe you are a traveling man.


By the way, frankly I could don't give a fuzzy rat's ____ what you believe and what you don't. I've been a Mason for almost 16 years. A VERY active one....But if for some silly stupid reason you don't believe that, feel free to check me out here at the Scottish Rite's official web-site:

www.srmason-sj.org...



Have you seen the baby?


No. What I HAVE seen is a LOT of trolls like you and other "individuals" who'll believe anything they read or hear. 'tis a sad commentary on human nature.

...but in the end, it's your problem, not mine. Good luck to you.



posted on May, 13 2005 @ 08:28 PM
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I derive my beliefs about the 33d degree of Freemasonry, and Freemasonry in general, from the writings of 33d degree Freemasons.

In re "What I HAVE seen is a LOT of trolls like you and other "individuals" who'll believe anything they read or hear. 'tis a sad commentary on human nature."

It's called an Ad Hominem attack. When you lose the argument, insult the opponent.

You do that a lot.



posted on May, 13 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by Researcher
I derive my beliefs about the 33d degree of Freemasonry, and Freemasonry in general, from the writings of 33d degree Freemasons.


Really? Like who? Name them. Albert Pike? He doesn't qualify...remember what he said in the beginning of the ONLY book that non- and anti-Masons know about (Pike wrote DOZENS of books) Morals & Dogma of the Ancient & Accepted (Scottish) Rite "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be unture or unsound" So who else? What other 33rd Degree Masons?

Doesn't really matter since it's obvious that you (like all the other anti's) have NO CLUE what it means to be a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason. You think that gives some authority over Masonry when it doesn't.



In re "What I HAVE seen is a LOT of trolls like you and other "individuals" who'll believe anything they read or hear. 'tis a sad commentary on human nature."

It's called an Ad Hominem attack. When you lose the argument, insult the opponent.

You do that a lot.


Actually an Ad Hominem attack is when one says "well you're a (fill in the blank)


Like it or not trolls are trolls....and we all know that. And if the shoe fits, well.....

You're wasting your time with that 'ol dodge.

But, really...thanks for playing.

[edit on 13-5-2005 by senrak]



posted on May, 13 2005 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by Researcher
It's called an Ad Hominem attack. When you lose the argument, insult the opponent.

You do that a lot.


Actually, I dont insult people. I merely state the obvious.



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 12:29 AM
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"Really? Like who? Name them. Albert Pike?"

Over the years, I have posted quotes by J.D. Buck, C.W "Lend a hand" Leadbeater, Foster Bailey, Manly P. Hall, and of course Albert Pike.

Regarding Pike: I frequently quote from Old Cahier of the 33d degree and Liturgies of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.

Most of the points made by people here - that Masonry is a religion, that it is a component of the Plan, the Great Plan For the Ages, the New World Order, and One World Government, ( you can't seem to settle on one name ), that the majority are a front for a select few, are made by at least 2 and usually 3 of these gentlemen.

www.nizkor.org...



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 03:10 AM
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Originally posted by Researcher
Most of the points made by people here - that Masonry is a religion, that it is a component of the Plan, the Great Plan For the Ages, the New World Order, and One World Government, ( you can't seem to settle on one name ), that the majority are a front for a select few, are made by at least 2 and usually 3 of these gentlemen.


I have NEVER seen a single quote posted here on ATS that proves any such thing. They never stand up to scrutiny by knowledgeable masons. It's a fallacy to think that you would better know and understand any of Pike's, Mackey's or Hall's writings any more than an educated Freemason. You have not gone through the experiences being discussed in the book, so you definitely cannot pretend to know what the authors are talking about.



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 03:35 AM
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To researcher:

While Pike is acknowledged by the masons, they hardly worship or fawn over what he wrote. If you had read his text you would see that it is nothing more than a philosophical text, about the morals and dogma of the masonic tradition. Pike was not a satanist, nor does he give the impression that the masons are tied to satanism. There are maybe two quotes in the book (which ia 800 pages long, with a 200 page index) pertaining to "lucifer" the bringer of light, or venus, as he mentions in the paragraps before and after the quotes. But you would know that because you read it, right? I'll just leave it at that.

Chances are if you haven't read Pike's book, you have no idea what it contains. It is easy to take a quote out of context, and it is even easier if you got it as second hand information. Beware of hand me downs. De-bunkerino.

Albert pike also "borrowed" most of the text from other philosophers. He says so himself in the introduction. This includes ancient and arcane texts. He was a master of arcane languages, and thus translations have gotten the best of us once again. Lucifer does not mean what you think it does, the original meaning pertains to the planet Venus. Masonic writers rarely write on behalf of thier organization rather, they contribute works of art and literature to the organization as a gift to other members. These works are not widely taught in masonry, as they do not represent a "masonic"(used in ritual) text.

Example

Quote used "I love animals." (assumption: animal lover?)

Quote in context: "I love animals. They tase good and thier fur is warm." (truth: animal eater)



[edit on 14-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by Researcher
Over the years, I have posted quotes by J.D. Buck, C.W "Lend a hand" Leadbeater, Foster Bailey, Manly P. Hall, and of course Albert Pike.


Fascinating. Nice old dead guys. Why not quote some LIVING Masons...even 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Masons if you like? There are PLENTY of them out there TODAY writing about Masonry....and a LOT more openly than members did before and utilizing a lot more information (electronic communication has really opened up a lot of fields)

Here are some suggestions of highly-respected Masonic writers

S. Brent Morris, 33rd Degree-Grand Cross
Arturo de Hoyos, 33rd Degree
Jim Tresner, 33rd Degree-Grand Cross
Rex Hutchens, 33rd Degree
Leon Zeldis, 33rd Degree
Alain Bernheim, 33rd Degree
Robert G. Davis, 33rd Degree-Grand Cross
Michael Poll, 32nd Degree
Wallace McLeod
Norman D. Peterson, 32nd Degree-KCCH

Give these guys a read. Their books are readily available. Use them as a source of information....or are you afraid they're telling the truth and that it wouldn't fit into your agenda?



Regarding Pike: I frequently quote from Old Cahier of the 33d degree


Why? It's an out of date ritual book of questionable origin. Pike loved to reprint old, out-of-date rituals so that they wouldn't be lost over time. A practice that the Grand College of Rites continues to this day.

The current 33rd Degree (and even the Ragon revision of 1867 and the Pike revision later in the nineteenth century) bears NO resemblance to it. Of what use is quoting that? Especially if you do it as you say "freqently"?



and Liturgies of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.


Finally a legitimate source. I sure hope you quote in context....but I seriously doubt that you do or even CAN since you've never received the degrees and cannot understand the esoteric portions of those lectures that are not printed in the Liturgies.



Most of the points made by people here - that Masonry is a religion, that it is a component of the Plan, the Great Plan For the Ages, the New World Order, and One World Government, ( you can't seem to settle on one name ), that the majority are a front for a select few, are made by at least 2 and usually 3 of these gentlemen.


Wishful thinking on their part. Personally I'd LOVE it if Freemasonry would take over the world. I think the world would be much better off. But alas, we're satisfied to be a fraternity instead. Too bad you're too blind to see that.



[edit on 14-5-2005 by senrak]



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by Researcher


Over the years, I have posted quotes by J.D. Buck, C.W "Lend a hand" Leadbeater, Foster Bailey, Manly P. Hall, and of course Albert Pike.


Just curious, but have you bothered to actually read their works in context, instead of just collecting a few quotes from conspiracy theory websites? I've read your quotes (as well as the quotes posted by other conspiracy theorists), and quickly came to the conclusion that the material quoted is either entirely misunderstood or purposely given out of context in order to make the original author appear to endorse an opinion he didn't have at all. Furthermore, of the above named Masonic authors you mentioned, only Pike was a Masonic administrator and official; and even he published disclaimers in his books that what he wrote was merely combinations of different philosophical and theological notions, and were not official Masonic doctrines. Indeed, Pike also made it clear that he himself didn't agree with everything he wrote; he simply elaborated on what different people in different times believed.


Regarding Pike: I frequently quote from Old Cahier of the 33d degree and Liturgies of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.


The Liturgies were the original work of Pike. However, the author of the Old Cahier is unknown. Pike translated it from the French, and it is possibly the work of Joseph Cerneau,


Most of the points made by people here - that Masonry is a religion, that it is a component of the Plan, the Great Plan For the Ages, the New World Order, and One World Government, ( you can't seem to settle on one name ), that the majority are a front for a select few, are made by at least 2 and usually 3 of these gentlemen


First, your accusation that we "can't seem to settle on one name" is ludicrous because none of those terms are used in Masonry. In actuality, they are the inventions of the conspiracy theorists. Therefore, I must reply that it's you guys who can't seem to settle on one name.

Secondly, Pike never said anything about any one world government or new world order. In fact, as a Whig and Confederate, he would have vehemently opposed such dreamy nonsense. Foster Bailey did actually endorse such a thing, but this had nothing to do with Masonry, and everything to do with his wife's new age rainbows and unicorns fluff gobbledegook, where they believed that eventually people would evolve to a point where there would no longer be a need for war, money, or artificial geographical boundaries, and all the world could live in peace and harmony, just like a John Lennon tune. Unfortunately, Bailey, like Lennon, was far too idealistic to realize the sad fact that there are too many paranoids and neurotics who will refuse to consider change, always.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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I think this Charles T McClenechan guy *may* have contibuted greatly to the myth of 33rd degree being exclusive to members of the Supreme council and what not when he published this (very obviously faked) book that was accidentally published by the Masonic Publishing company not just once but 3 times over the space of 50 years and is still accidentally published for limited circulation to the various Grand Lodges of the world.
You guys really should sort you editorial department out...I mean there might be deluded anti-mason types out there who could believe this is actually the real thing...


www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

Note the explicit declaration that this Degree is bestowed ONLY by members of The Supreme Council IN the Supreme Council.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
..when he published this (very obviously faked) book that was accidentally published by the Masonic Publishing company not just once but 3 times over the space of 50 years and is still accidentally published for limited circulation to the various Grand Lodges of the world....


You just LOVE to evoke a response don't you Necros? NO ONE said the book was "fake" (except you) All we said was it's OUT OF DATE. It's NOT CURRENT. It's HISTORICALLY IMPORTANT. It's a GREAT BOOK. But it is NOT accurate as to the lectures, etc. of the CURRENT Northern Masonic Jurisdiction Scottish Rite Degrees. ..and has NEVER been accurate as to the Southern Jurisdiction Degrees because they are vastly different.

What does it take to make you understand that? Or do you really believe anyone will take pity on you with that "woe is me" BS you're posting.

Geezzz! Next you'll be doing like Driver and sending me unsolicited, childish U2U's. Please don't! and I've asked Driver nicely to stop as well..



posted on May, 20 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
I think this Charles T McClenechan guy *may* have contibuted greatly to the myth of 33rd degree being exclusive to members of the Supreme council

Note the explicit declaration that this Degree is bestowed ONLY by members of The Supreme Council IN the Supreme Council.


Yawn.

McLenachan wrote his book OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. When he wrote that book, he was right. In the 1870's, Pike issued a proposal to the Supreme Council, Southern Jurisdiction, to amend its Constitution to allow the 33° to be conferred as an honorariam on 32° members, without regard of Supreme Council membership. The motion passed, and can be read in the minutes of the Supreme Council's meetings, which have been published every odd year for almost two hundred years.

Furthermore, McLenachan was not a member of the Southern Jurisdiction. Pike introduced the decoration of KCCH, which has never been, not even today, adopted by the Supreme Council of the Northern Jurisdiction. Using McLenachan's book to understand the modern Scottish Rite is like using Gutenberg's Bible as a manual to fix your computer; i.e., it's a little outdated, and had one too many mistakes in it to begin with.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 04:39 PM
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Why are the Rituals named after the British?

Is there no such thing as an American occult tradition?

Or did you all just agree with what you were told, that the British Empire is cool.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
Why are the Rituals named after the British?


What rituals named after the British? What are you talking about?



Is there no such thing as an American occult tradition?
Sure. Plenty of 'em. Not Masonic though...



Or did you all just agree with what you were told, that the British Empire is cool.
Don't know what you've been sniffing Akilles, but I've NEVER been told that...by anyone.

Personally, though, I have a DEEP respect for Great Britain. You obviously don't, but that's your business. Has nothing to to with the thread.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 06:23 AM
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[groan]

Akilles does not wear me down with his nonsense
Akilles does not wear me down with his nonsense
Akilles does not wear me down with his nonsense
Akilles does not wear me down with his nonsense
Akilles does not wear me down with his nonsense
Akilles does not wear me down with his nonsense
Akilles does not wear me down with his nonsense



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by senrak

Personally, though, I have a DEEP respect for Great Britain.


You will have, considering how Freemasonry is tied to the British Empire and Royalty.

[edit on 24-5-2005 by ThePunisher]

[edit on 24-5-2005 by ThePunisher]



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