Where is thy evidence against Bush???

Oh pompous little diviner from the future, please tell me my fortune as well? What will my wife and kids and life be like in 10 years? Can I attribute this fate to the Bush administration as well?

By the way, I like how are using an ad hominem argument to dispel everyone's criticism of Bush. You pegged me, I'm just jealous of Bush even though I'm not old enough to be president. All this time, all my gripes, they are but the mere product of my jealousy.

You know even if you say it enough, it still doesn't make it true. I think you know what I'm talking about...

as posted by Global Disorder
When the haluocaust happened there was no UN, now the USA has become the FIRST Country SINCE hitlers days to do soemthing on this scale.. invade another country.

History must be elusive to you, huh?
What was the term you used about two or three posts ago..."bollux"?

Read a little instead of throwing simple rhetoric, cause I'll give you just one of a handful of nations "SINCE hitlers days" to "invade another country": Russia invading Afghanistan.




seekerof

I knew as soon as I said that It would be misread.

What the US is doing in IRAQ is something ONLY comparable to Germany in the 40's.

What is happening now is DIFFERENT from any other conflict since WW2
THE USA is the fist country since hitler to LIE and invade a country without ANY REASONING or provocation.

THE USA is the first ever since WW2 to be able to invade a country, and have NO ONE in existence powerful enough to stop them.

What im trying to get across is, Prior to the UN ww2 was a major global conflict. Caused by one man.
This is the first time SINCE then that a country has caused soo much upheival and conflict throughout the world.

USSR in Afghanistan was SOLEY they're own war.
They were scared of the GROWING Muslim States and feared invasion themselvs in their lower districts.
They went in with a atleast HALF decent excuse.

Bush went in on lies, lies that turned out to be HUGE lies, and yet he's still their causing problems.

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
What is happening now is DIFFERENT from any other conflict since WW2
THE USA is the fist country since hitler to LIE and invade a country without ANY REASONING or provocation.

The US had provocation. Saddam had started pricing his oil in euros rather than dollars, that's all the provocation they needed. Look at the countries that are thinking of doing the same and you can pretty much predict where the next 'humanitarian interventions' are going to be.

Iran, nuff said.

Venezuela, the US already attempted a coup there. For all the talk of promoting democracy in Iraq, edsinger and his pals seem to conveniently forget about the legitimately elected government bush-monkey and his cronies were trying to overthrow.

Dollar hegemony. Without it the US economy crumbles.

I'm gonna have to agree with seekerof on this one, he makes a very good point.

If you really wanna complain about lying to go to war, vietnam was justified with the tonkin gulf incident. Do a google on that, see what you find.

But anyway, to back up Seekerof.

From Wikipedia.
List of invasions.
Post-WWII (1946 - )
2003 invasion of Iraq by a coalition led by the United States
2001 invasion of Afghanistan by the United States and allies
1994 invasion of Haiti by a multinational force (MNF) led by the United States
1991 invasion of Kuwait by a coalition force of 34 nations led by the United States (Operation Desert Storm)
1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq
1989 invasion of Panama by the United States (Operation Just Cause)
1983 invasion of Grenada by the United States and allied Caribbean nations
1982 invasion of Lebanon by Israel.
1982 invasion of Falkland Islands by the United Kingdom
1982 invasion of Falkland Islands initially by Argentine civilians, followed by official Argentina forces (Operation Rosario)
1979 invasion of Vietnam by China
1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union
1978 invasion of Lebanon by Israel.
1978 invasion of Cambodia by Vietnam
1978 invasion of Sealand (micronation located on Roughs Tower) initially by German and Dutch civilians and then by former "head of state" and other civilians
1975 invasion of East Timor by Indonesia
1974 invasion of Northern Cyprus by Turkey
1971 invasion of East Pakistan by India
1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Warsaw Pact
1967 invasion of Syria by Israel
1967 invasion of Jordan by Israel
1967 invasion of Israel by Jordan and Syria
1967 invasion of Egypt by Israel
1961 invasion of Goa by India
1961 failed invasion of Cuba by Cuban allies of the United States, particularly its CIA
1956 invasion of Hungary by the Soviet Union
1956 invasion of Egypt by France, United Kingdom and Israel
1950 invasion of Tibet by China
1948 invasion of Lebanon and Egypt by Israeli forces
1948 invasion of Israel by Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, Egyptian, Transjordanian and other forces
1945 invasion of Vietnam by France, with British, Indian and captured Japanese forces

en.wikipedia.org...-WWII_.281946_-_.29

As you can see we are not the only ones running around and invading people.

Is your problem really with the lying?

I don't like it, but that doesn't make Bush Hitler.

Are you saying you would rather have him give no justification?


[edit on 1-5-2005 by LeftBehind]

YES those invasions all had ACTUAL casues..
People were threatening them,
territorial problems,
There was some sorta THREAT something there that a country said
' we have no choice but for conflict to decide our issue '

THE US Created an ISSUE for them to INVADE.

Vietnam... as i said the reason we went in was to DEFEND the South.
Who are we DEFENDING IN IRAQ?

99% of wars something happens, someone does something to someone else and it causes a war.

BUSH Created this war in the walls of the CIA and whitehouse.

I would rather no WAR.
Thats no possible.
SO I Would rather someone only goes to war as a LAST RESORT.

Bush CLEARLY didnt do this!

[edit on 1-5-2005 by GlobalDisorder]

Look, I agree with you that this war was most likely unnecasary, however many of those on that list were simply wars for territory or aggression. There was never an exit strategy for Czechoslovakia.

You are wrong about the "since hitler" statement, and to show you some wars that were either based on "lies" or simply aggression, here is a shorter list.

1945 invasion of Vietnam by France: Overt colonial aggression.

1950 invasion of Tibet by China
1956 invasion of Hungary by the Soviet Union
1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Warsaw Pact
1979 invasion of Vietnam by China
1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union

All communist aggression, the Soviets did not fear Afghanistan, and China did not fear Tibet.

Tying to classify all these invasions as legitimate wars compared to Iraq is inaccurate at best.

Ok,
but none of those wars were on the scale of this war?
2 of the world superpowers ' USA and Britan '

Largest INVASION force since WW2 were ammassed prior to March03

And since the end of the coldwar This is the first conflict being felt around the world

DeltaChaos, good points, and yes i think things need to be done in other countiries also, we gotta start somewhere, Iraq seems like a good enough place to start, i support bush yes, I and noone else here knows what his true intentions are, all we have are assumptions, and conspiracies, at face value i think iraq from the standpoint i made is justified, just like it should be in ANY country who currently commits these same acts against humans for no reason at all..

Things such as this are what the U.N should be doing, rather then making policies and rules that they willnot enforce.

And all those muslim countires who care so much about each other could maybe help out there muslim brothers in iraq establish a peacfull country.


truthseeka, I am about as pro-bush as any conserve could be, I have said it before and il say it again hes a friggin idiot as far as our borders are concerned, I dont think anyone other then the illegals, and the cowards who dont want to "offend" anyone, would disagree.

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
Largest INVASION force since WW2 were ammassed prior to March03

I'm sorry but your wrong on that one too.

Troop levels for '03 war: 132,000

Troop levels for '91 war: 306,730

Troop levels for Soviet Invasion of Afganistan: 175,000

Troop levels for Soviet Invasion of Czechoslovakia: 200,000

Troop levels for Soviet Invasion of Czechoslovakia: 200,000

guess it depends on where you look.

On August 20, 1968, Warsaw Pact forces--including troops from Bulgaria, the German Democratic Republic (East Germany), Hungary, Poland, and the Soviet Union--invaded Czechoslovakia. Approximately 500,000 troops, mostly from the Soviet Union, poured across the borders in a blitzkrieg-like advance.

www.globalsecurity.org...

I don't know how anyone can keep believing the lies from the Bush Administration. Is it because you the ones who voted for him refuse to believe you were duped, lied to and led around by the nose because you wanted to be? You wanted to believe the lies and obviously still do. Is it too painful to admit that Bush has been the worst president we have ever had and you voted for him not once but twice? Don't worry it is painful for the rest of us suffering through this with you too.

The op or someone here who is a Bush devotee and I assume voted for him wrote Bush is doing what needs to be done. Well here is a list of what Bush did in his very first year, if you can read this and still think that then I truely feel sorry for you. www.workingforchange.com...

What about those WMD, where are they? Even Bush has made a joke of that one, there is footage of him doing this in a speech, it was very funny. What about the terror levels and the advice to build a safe room of getting plastic sheeting and duct tape in case of a chemical attack from Iraq? Did you do that? What about the constant lie told by the Bush Administration and Bush himself alluding to Iraq being responsible for 911? I guess you still believe that one.

You know Martha Stewart was imprisoned for (if I recall correctly, correct me on this if I am wrong) supposedly lying to the FBI concerning insider trading and making around 50,000.00 off of it.
Now read about Bush and his deal, he made a lot more than 50,000.00.

www.buzzflash.com...
"In June of 1990, Bush sold two-thirds of the Harken stock he had received in the Spectrum 7 deal--and collected $318,430 more than it was worth when he first obtained it. Get low, sell high? Anything wrong with that? The month before this sale, Harken appointed Bush to a committee to determine, as Ivins and Dubose put it, "how restructuring [of the firm] would affect ordinary shareholders." According to Ivins and Dubose, who note the previous reporting work of "U.S. News and World Report," when Bush served on this committee, he was privy to information indicating the company was in trouble. He then dumped his stocks before this news became public. "U.S. News" concluded that at the time of the sale there was "substantial evidence to suggest that Bush knew Harken was in dire straits.""

www.thenation.com... Also
"Although the law requires prompt disclosure of what are called insider sales, or sales by senior executives, Mr Bush did not inform the securities and exchange commission (SEC), the US market regulator, until 34 weeks later. So technically Mr Bush was at fault."
www.guardian.co.uk...

As governor, Bush had 152 executions and not one stay, on the average that is one execution every nine days.
As for the his being governor heres an interesting bit of info for you
www.bushkills.com...
Bush has even opposed simple safeguards like holding open meetings. The Texas governor has vetoed legislation which would have provided funding for basic indigent defense. He called that bill, which had bipartisan support, "a threat to public safety." Bush also opposed legislation instituting life without parole and banning the execution of people with IQ's less than 65. In general, he has been a leading spokesperson in favor of the death penalty.

and mister Rumsfeld visited him on regular basis; selling weapons to Iraq and making big oil deals

There is video evidence of this from destroyed CNN files. If you don't know about this footage of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam, AFTER the chemical weapons attacks on Kurds, during the Reagan Adminstration, then you have been living under a rock. When Rumsfeld was confronted with a frame of this footage he asked in outrage "WHERE DID YOU GET THAT FOOTAGE"?

God dig for the "evidence" yourself, I don't need to kick any more sand in your face on this one.

Instead, they are swept under the rug b/c armless, legless and blinde soldiers are not the image BushCo. wishes to convey

Bush has not gone to a single of 1,700 funerals of dead vets.
Until just this week, there has been a complete news black out on the returning bodies.
The Bush Administration cut veterans health care funding after promising to support them.


Face it sportyMB you are uneducated, out of touch with reality, and don't know whats going on.
Your lack of knowing about the Rumsfeld deals with Saddam is a shining example of such ignorance, that information is over a decade old!!!

If you want proof to what the Bush adminstration is doing, go dig for the truth.

People who hate Bush and his cronies have valid reasons.

You have any valid reasons to support him?

Lets see, deaths from terrorists attacks tripled last year,
7.7 Million Americans Unemployed and already there is a planned 1 Million jobs to be outsourced this year,
$106 Billion in tax cuts to the wealthy this year,
highest defecits ever,
40 Million adult americans without health insurance,
gas and oil at an all time high while fuel companies (ie, his saudi friends) have the highest profits in history.

Face it, everything this man has ever touched in his life has turned into a steaming pile of elephant feces.

Apparently he's "touched" you too.

[edit on 1-5-2005 by Legalizer]

[edit on 1-5-2005 by Legalizer]

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
YES those invasions all had ACTUAL casues..
People were threatening them,
territorial problems,
There was some sorta THREAT something there that a country said
' we have no choice but for conflict to decide our issue '

THE US Created an ISSUE for them to INVADE.

Vietnam... as i said the reason we went in was to DEFEND the South.
Who are we DEFENDING IN IRAQ?

99% of wars something happens, someone does something to someone else and it causes a war.

BUSH Created this war in the walls of the CIA and whitehouse.

I would rather no WAR.
Thats no possible.
SO I Would rather someone only goes to war as a LAST RESORT.

Bush CLEARLY didnt do this!

[edit on 1-5-2005 by GlobalDisorder]

Geeze, I can't believe you actually posted this. Well lets see the First time Israel was invaded was becuase it had just become a Nation. No justification there just different religious beliefs and then all its neighboring Nations invaded.
And Bush made a reason well how about the fact that Saddam was shooting at our planes? Or the fact that he was murdering the Kurds in his country. Is that not reason enough.

AGAIN just because he was murdering people in his own country ISNT justification.
Just because he shot at our planes that were flying over HIS COUNTRY isnt justification.

BUSH'S JUSTIFICATION Was that Saddam was a threat to the world, and his WMD Was gauranteed to be stocking up.

Both justifications turned out to be lies...

why?

1, because NorthKorea declared they HAVE nukes, and always have known to have WMD's.. we didnt invade them did we?

2, Mugabe has been SLAUGHTERING people in his country for years and years, and sudan is experiencing a genocide as we speak.. Didnt invade them did we.

WHAT MADE Iraq soo damn desireable to invade?

Also, u backed up my point.

ISrael became a nation, this caused policial STIRRING up and htye got invaded.

OK So something ACTUALLY happened, some process began which caused a war.

This wasnt some dood sitting around making up a reason to invade Israel, something actualyl happened for it to happen.


NOTHING happened in IRAQ is my BLOODY point u all seem to be missing.
YES I know country after country have had wars over STUPID REASONS.. but there actually was SOME sort of reason right or wrong by someone to invade.

This war with IRAQ was simply MADE UP, like short story in the walls of the CIA and whitehouse.

IRaq didnt become a nation, iraq didnt shoot one of our airliners or planes down, they didnt even bloody threaten us.. the lived there lives trying to get by when boom, the superpower of the world for NO REASON what so ever aimed there crosshairs at them, and created a excuse of LIES.

SO STOP GIVING ME DETAILS OF WARS FAUGHT OVER STUPID REASONS...
This is the first war fought over a COMPLETELY made up reason.

Global Disorder, I don't think we should be in Iraq either, but you are exagerating.

The Administration lied to the public, or misinformed, if you will, but they still had plenty of reasons to invade Iraq. One of the reasons could be that they wanted a middle eastern country full of our bases. Maybe it was just for control of the oil.

We had troops patrolling Iraq since the end of the first gulf war. Maybe our reason was to give them some more training.

You see, my only problem with your argument is that you are trying to say that the US is evil and that no one else ever does things like this. All I'm saying is that you are wrong. Lots of countries around the world behave that way.

Isn't a war for territory the same? Isn't an unprovoked invasion the same as "having no reason at all".

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
AGAIN just because he was murdering people in his own country ISNT justification.

. . .

2, Mugabe has been SLAUGHTERING people in his country for years and years, and sudan is experiencing a genocide as we speak.. Didnt invade them did we.

Which one is it? Do you want us to invade Sudan? If you do then you must feel Iraq was justified.

Just because he shot at our planes that were flying over HIS COUNTRY isnt justification.

Yeah, thats called an act of War. That alone is a good enough reason. You think we should let people shoot at our air force with impunity? Why?

IRaq didnt become a nation, iraq didnt shoot one of our airliners or planes down, they didnt even bloody threaten us.. the lived there lives trying to get by when boom, the superpower of the world for NO REASON what so ever aimed there crosshairs at them, and created a excuse of LIES.

See this is another problem I have with your argument. You make it seem like Saddam Hussein was really just a nice guy minding his own business. Yet earlier you said he shot at our planes. Your lies argument is pretty thin. We had tons of reasons to invade, just no good justifications to sell to the public.

SO STOP GIVING ME DETAILS OF WARS FAUGHT OVER STUPID REASONS...
This is the first war fought over a COMPLETELY made up reason.

Stop saying that this is the first war fought over completely made up reasons, and I will stop trying to correct you. What you are saying is false.
Look at history, almost every communist invasion was for made up reasons.

You seem to think that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was justified but the US invasion of Iraq is not.

That is a ridiculous line of reasoning. The soviets were not threatened by afghanistan and just because their so-called reasons were never questioned by the populace does not give truth to their lies.

i have some evidence that proves Bush dont really care about the American people
i dont claim or desire to have evidence about anything else however

evidence bush dont care about american public

: i was threatened with no less than a week of jailtime and a 500$ fine for driving 34 in a 30 zone

thats unconstitutional and Bush allows it to go on in America

with prisons and jails already over filled
they are threatening to put ME in there over a 500$ minor violation
this doesnt make sense
i was driving down a hill; it was an accident
i never hurt anyone or anything negative like that

but the Govt doesnt look at it like that
the govt thinks "we want $$$"

any rich man is automatically evil
read any religious text
it will verify that

heres 2 bible quotes just to get you going *im not religious but these quotes make perfect sense*
-- "Money is the root of all evil"
--- "Its harder for a rich man to go to heaven than to pass a camel thru the eye of a needle"

America faces certain collapse at the hands of Rich Greedy Careless leaders

what America needs is a Poor Man as president!!!!
A Poor Man who has NO desires for $$$ whatso ever

then what would happen
the wackos would Murder him just like they did JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King Jr, Malcomb X, the list goes on

any man with a Good Heart and a Desire to Fix the World peacefully and Constructively is murdered by the powers that be; because fixing the world means making the rich poor agian
simple

flame me all you want; it will only show your true colors
im not a liberal or a conservative
i dont follow their orders like so many others do
i am not part of your psychotic political scheme

I look at both the Democratic and Republican partys with disdain
it is These two partys which are destroying America
they are Nazis plain and simple; both partys are

Both partys say "The other side has no right to say their opinions! they should be killed!"

just more proof that its a 2party nazi system
now your cracking down on people with very minor speeding tickets

I personally am an American; i am not a liberal or conservative
Since im a true American ; i will say this
The only thing we are suppost to believe in is the CONSTITUTION
and the BILL OF RIGHTS

why dont you stop following your leaders blindly and think for yourselves for once LOL
anyone who supports or defends a politician is a complete @(*)&%@

you ever heard the age old saying
"Politicians are liars"
That means all of them ok?

Deny Ignorance!!!

I got Thomas Jefferson; Ben Franklin , John Adams, Madison, Washington
and the whole rest of the Constitutional Congress of 1776 on my side
I am agianst all Current forms of perversion of the Constitution

Me and the founding fathers will banish you and your ilk from this nation and we will revive the glory and honor of america once agian

the world will respect this nation
and the people of this nation will be healthy in spirit once agian

just you wait
your time is short
the day of reckoning is coming
the people will take charge once agian
time is ticking
we are going to kick all the politicians out once and for all
and only regular citizens will be allowed to represent regular citizens!

no more rich men representing us then turning around and representing the corporations

the corproations are the biggest threat to the American constitution there ever was!
We will take them down; legally and soon enough

Americas glory is going to return i garuntee it
and it will only happen when these rich greedy scum who sell us all out daily are removed from power and kept out of the loop for ever

how can you flame that?
you hate the constitution? figures...

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
AGAIN just because he was murdering people in his own country ISNT justification.
Just because he shot at our planes that were flying over HIS COUNTRY isnt justification.

You just answered your own question by saying the above.
He shot at our planes which is an act of war.(note LeftBehind also pointed this out)

Thats justification enough. What your saying is wrong and I think that your getting angry because i proved you wrong.
Oh well. Better luck next time.

[edit on 1-5-2005 by demosthenes]

Wow. I can't belive some flame-bait post, written by someone who is not aware of ATS's "Search" feature, has so many responses. What's next? "Where is thy evidence against Greys???"

Ok, so you think,

BECAUSE our planes are flying over IRAQ.. which isnt even our country, and are being shot at.

That justifies the slaughter of all those innocent civilians?
Its worth all the US and Coalition deaths?
The destruction of Iraq?

That plane deserved to get shot at, its flying over their territory.
Sure srue the UN placed no fly zones,
but the UN Is curropt remember? we cant beleive or use them as an allie.

And that WASNT bush's justification for going to war.
He never said

' Iraq are shooting at our planes, so we are going to take him out '

The point is, America went to war with IRAQ based on a lie.
no amount of talking or arguing is going to prove other wise.
NONE OF YOU have YET to show PROOF he is right and hoenst in this venture.


Would I say we should of gone to Sudan? Yes definatley.
Thousands of innoncents are being slaughtered and we arent doing anything,
Turns out we are slaughtering thousands of innocents in IRAQ when they didnt NOTHING!

which one sounds more noble?
Saddam was a bad sadadistic man, no doubt about it.
But how are the american viewed from the middleeast now after all these babies shown with no arms, legs or burns?

LeftBEHIND
'We had tons of reasons to invade, just no good justifications to sell to the public'

Lets hear them, what is a good enough reason to INVADE this country at the cost of all these lies?
Where is the ULTIMATE THREAT worth sacrficing human lives?
HOW CAN you say IRAQ was justified because we arent in Sudan, doesnt make sense.
I DONT think iraq was justified, saddam wasnt murderin the amount of people being slaughtered in Sudan right now. SHOW me proof in 2002 he was slaughtering as many as sudan have in the past year

You show me another war where it turned out the reason for gonig to war WAS COMLPETELY made up.
Someone becoming a nation then being invaded doesnt count.. why? BECAUSE something happened POLITICALLY that caused this war.

Afghantistan? and the USSR? The muslim malitia was growing in numbers and threatening the lower states of the USSR,
again SOEMTHING happened which cause a war.

Waht im trying to get across to you, is IRAQ did nothing to deserve being INVADED!