Terrified US soldiers are still killing civilians with impunity, while the dead go uncounted

An American patrol roared past us with the soldiers gesturing furiously with their guns for traffic to keep back on an overpass in central Baghdad. A black car with three young men in it did not stop in time and a soldier fired several shots from his machine gun into its engine.

The driver and his friends were not hit, but many Iraqis do not survive casual encounters with US soldiers. It is very easy to be accidentally killed in Iraq. US soldiers treat everybody as a potential suicide bomber. If they are right they have saved their lives and if they are wrong they face no penalty.

It was obvious to many American officers from an early stage in the conflict that the Pentagon's claim that it did not count civilian casualties was seen by many Iraqis as proof that the US did not care about how many of them were killed. The failure to take Iraqi civilian dead into account was particularly foolish in a culture where relatives of the slain are obligated by custom to seek revenge.

US soldiers are notorious in Iraq for departing immediately after a skirmish, taking their own casualties but sometimes leaving damaged vehicles. They would not have time to find out how many Iraqis were killed or injured.

US firepower, designed to combat the Soviet army, cannot be used in built up areas without killing or injuring civilians. Nevertheless, a study published in the Lancet saying that 100,000 civilians have died in Iraq appears to be too high. But the lack of definitive figures continues to dehumanise the uncounted Iraqi dead. As Dr Richard Garfield, a professor of nursing at Columbia University and an author of the Lancet report, wrote: "We are still fighting to record the Armenian genocide. Until people have names and are counted they don't exist in a policy sense."

source:
information.clearing.house

You will say: "Hey its War - people die."

The fact that US soldiers treat everybody as a potential suicide bomber with intentions to kill is nothing new. It is a tricky situation, and in most of the cases the terrified US troops shoot without any questions asked. Hundreds of dead bodies come in Baghdad hospitals non-stop, most of them ofcourse, civilian - either shot and killed by US soldiers, thinking they are suicide bombers, or blown away by a suicide bomber targeting the US tropps and Iraqi Police. The Health Ministry in Baghdad did come to a number of 17,384 casualties in the Iraqi Body Count. But the problem is that most of the Iraqis die obscurely, and it is dangerous for any reporters to go and investigate.

Much of Iraq is a bandit-ridden no-man's land.

not much we can do about it, we dont have the manpower to count the dead even if we try. and other non profit organizations arent even trying even those that really care.

Well, well well, another colorful story by Souljah.....how nice.

As usual American soldiers are riding 70 year old ladies like "Donkeys"...shooting up Iraqi towns like "cowboys" and stealing their oil.

Look in this instance that cars engine was shot up, but the occupants were not hurt. Your "colorful" article mentions that "many" Iraqis do not survive casual encounters with US soldiers....if that was the case millions of Iraqis would be dead.

The suicide bombers do far more damage than US troops, but you never seem to condem them Souljah.

Regarding our "firepower", we use only enough to get the mission done...Ive yet to see B-1 and B-52 bombers carpet bombing a village.

This is a nice peice of fiction tho and I enjoyed reading it.

Max

Originally posted by deltaboy
not much we can do about it, we dont have the manpower to count the dead even if we try. and other non profit organizations arent even trying even those that really care.

Well its a little too late now to think about that. The US forces have turned Iraq into the Most Deadly Place in the World, a place of non-stop conflict, a place of non-stop fighting and bombing. Kind of like Isreal - you dont know when its gonna hit, either sucidide bombers or apache gunships.

The Most Deadly Place in the entire World, where even soldiers from the best equipped and armed army of the World, the US Army, are caught in an endless urban guerrilla, which they are not really deisgned to fight - with all that heavy equipment and heavy weapons.

While I don't necessarily doubt the story 'could' have happened the conclusion I disagree with from the thread starter.

-engine block at a car that didn't stop-
hel-l-o

They could have killed everyone in the car.

thats why its better to learn from that urban combat settings. we have to learn the hard way that conventional cant win unless we annihilate everyone since we aint doin dat, special forces and the use of local forces are the best way to take on the insurgents and terrorists.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Well, well well, another colorful story by Souljah.....how nice.

Well, well well, another LA_Maximus reply. How nice.

As usual American soldiers are riding 70 year old ladies like "Donkeys"...shooting up Iraqi towns like "cowboys" and stealing their oil.

Damn! Thats the first time we agree on something!

Look in this instance that cars engine was shot up, but the occupants were not hurt. Your "colorful" article mentions that "many" Iraqis do not survive casual encounters with US soldiers....if that was the case millions of Iraqis would be dead.

The point was not on these 3 guys that were Lucky enough not to get killed, while their car was shot up. I never said Millions, and the article does not say it either - they come to the number of 100.000, but that is probably a big overestimate for the casualties in Iraq. Still, most of them die in strange and obscure circumstances, which nobody is really going to "look into".

The suicide bombers do far more damage than US troops, but you never seem to condem them Souljah.

Suicide bombers are the answers to your guided missiles and "smart bombs". They are the other edge of the same sword. When the US forces attack, they use massive airpower and rock the village into stone age - like Fallujah. See, the "terrorists" do not have such great flying toys like the Best Army in the World does. So, when a smart bomb "missess" its target and hits a school or a hospital and hundreds of innocent people are killed - then its OK, and its a collateral damage and a mistake, a miss, an error in the computer guidance. But when a suicide bomer blows himself up in order to kill several police, ofcouse killing many, many innocent civilans again - then its called Terrorism! See, both sides kill people, sadly most them innocent civilans, that are "just living here" - but some are called terrorists and others are called liberators.

This is a nice peice of fiction tho and I enjoyed reading it.

Thank You Sir. I have enjoyed writing it also.

[edit on 25/4/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah
The Most Deadly Place in the entire World, where even soldiers from the best equipped and armed army of the World, the US Army, are caught in an endless urban guerrilla, which they are not really deisgned to fight - with all that heavy equipment and heavy weapons.

Ummm.....
You haven't talked to anyone over there recently have you?

Nope, didn't think so



Seriously, talk to anyone over there. Yes there are still hot spots, but it's honestly not as bad as you're making it out to be. At least that's the word I'm getting from people over there. Others I know who have talked to the soldiers over there are saying the same thing....

I find very disturbing and very questionable that civilian casualties in Iraq, including women and children are so none important to the "war on terror" as to completely disregard their existence and death in the same "war" that is supposed to preserve freedom.

They should be remember, obviously not by American standards but I tell you their own people and families knows who they are.

Nice thread Souljah, some times this happy war people in the US needs to be reminded the price of a bad prepared war as the one in Iraq.

Everyday Iraqis die and so American soldiers, but we already won and declared victory.

The hypocrisy.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Ummm.....
You haven't talked to anyone over there recently have you? Nope, didn't think so

OK, did you want to say something here? OK, let me ask: Did you talk to anyone there recently? How the weather? Sunny? Warm?

Seriously, talk to anyone over there. Yes there are still hot spots, but it's honestly not as bad as you're making it out to be. At least that's the word I'm getting from people over there. Others I know who have talked to the soldiers over there are saying the same thing....

Well I am sure its pretty safe yes. Like this?

Final Six Months of 2004 Deadliest Ever for US Forces in Iraq

And thats just US Forces. They are armed and they are soldiers. What do you think happened to thousands of civilians in this period?

See, Iraq is becoming "Another Isreal" - everyday we are reading the same stories all over again: suicide bombers, gunship helicopters, several dead, roadside bombs etc.

So, if you think its so Safe, why dont you go there and check it out?

The US have embarked opon this mission of Liberation of the people of Iraq - are you sure you understand that word, The People of Iraq? These people are the innocent dying everyday! They are the ones that should enjoy freedom and liberty - since the War in Iraq was already declared over and Mission Accomplished.

So let me ask you again, how come that Final Six Months of 2004 were Deadliest Ever for US Forces in Iraq?

Originally posted by marg6043
I find very disturbing and very questionable that civilian casualties in Iraq, including women and children are so none important to the "war on terror" as to completely disregard their existence and death in the same "war" that is supposed to preserve freedom.

They should be remember, obviously not by American standards but I tell you their own people and families knows who they are.

Nice thread Souljah, some times this happy war people in the US needs to be reminded the price of a bad prepared war as the one in Iraq.

Everyday Iraqis die and so American soldiers, but we already won and declared victory.

The hypocrisy.

dont forget the deaths of foreign fighters. they have a voice too u know.

dont forget the deaths of foreign fighters. they have a voice too u know.

There's a world of difference between civilians stuck in the middle of a war not of their choosing, and people who enter the country looking for a fight.

Evidence seems to be that the whole "foreign fighters" component of the insurgency is greatly exaggerated though, something like only 2% of insurgents captured by the US came from outside Iraq.

It wouldn't suprise me if they represented the most murderous factions of the resistance though.

Deltaboy,

I imagine that they have not been forgotten by their countries and their families.

And I said American troops because even when foreign troops had die, and also American civilian contractors actually our troops are the majority of force in Iraq and for that they have also the highest number of targets by insurgents.

ThatsJustWeird said Iraq is a Safe place.

Lets just look at recent news from this area:

Iraqi insurgency far from 'fizzling'

Iraqi forces desert posts as insurgent attacks are stepped up

So much for "Situation Under Control - Mission Accomplished".


Also you might want to check this story:

Green Zone Must Die

The green zone must die. On that point everyone agrees: the Americans who created it, the foreigners who shelter in it, the parliamentarians who sit in it and, not least, the insurgents who bomb it. This fortress by the Tigris, home to the US and British embassies and Iraqi government offices, is an unloved, unlovely complex created two years ago as the nerve centre of the occupation.

[edit on 25/4/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah
either shot and killed by US soldiers, thinking they are suicide bombers, or blown away by a suicide bomber targeting the US tropps and Iraqi Police. The Health Ministry in Baghdad did come to a number of 17,384 casualties in the Iraqi Body Count. But the problem is that most of the Iraqis die obscurely, and it is dangerous for any reporters to go and investigate.

At least you admitted that the insurgents have killed Iraqis, too. The insurgents have decided how to they want to play by making sure that the Iraqi people are in the middle. If you were in the soldiers' boots, you would do the same thing. They don't have much choice in the matter if the soldiers wish to come home alive.

If we act, we are wrong. If we do nothing, we are wrong.

Kobayashi Maru

We are told that we are stingy with our aid at the same time we are told to mind our own business.

Trying to make people happy who will NEVER be happy is a worthless endeavor.

Na svidenje.

[edit on 25-4-2005 by xman_in_blackx]

I want to start this off by saying that I'm an American Soldier fighting on the ground in Iraq.

So let's shed some light on the situation here in Iraq. First off yes there are Iraqi civilians getting killed here quite often, do you know who the majority are killed by, it's the insurgents that's who. These suicide bombers are targeting Iraqis now and not the foreign troops because they think it will turn the citizens against us yet it's actually helping us out.


Now let me define what is considered "Insurgents"

• Foreign Insurgents
  
• Former Sadaam Regime members
  
• Local Thugs

Yes we are unnerved out on the streets but we also restrain ourselves because of the "Rules of Engagement". They specifically state that we can not fire on someone unless they pose an immenent threat to ourself or our team. What is meant by imminent threat is they have to be physically pointing a weapon at us in order for us to shoot them. This is that plain and if shoot someone a full investigation entails and if it's found that we didn't follow the ROE then we are brought up on charges. So in the case of the Italian Journalist which is a sad happening having been attacked by american soldiers at a checkout because they didn't stop is unfortunate. The reason that they were attacked is that the vehicles in their entourage failed to stop at a check point when everyone in this country knows that you have to stop and thus they were fired upon.


Now that the Insurgents are now targeting Iraqi Police, Army, and Civilians and not Foriegn soldiers first the tides are slowly changing. See when the suicide bomber killed over 100 people in one bombing it enraged the Iraqi people and they are helping us out a lot now by turning in insurgents and hunting them down theirselves.

I don't neccessarily agree with the reason we came into Iraq in the first place but I do believe in what we are here for now. What we are here for now is to give these people hope that they can walk down the streets and feel safe. When Sadaam was in control here his people would walk down the street and just grab someone and shoot them in the head with a pistol. I see the fear in them everyday when on patrol and a vehicle is not pulling off to the side of the road to let us pass. If they don't pull-off then I turn my .50 cal machine gun in their direction which works sometimes; if not then I pull out my 9mm pistol and point it at them and you can literally see the sheer terror in their faces. It still amazes me that they are so terrified of such a tiny weapon un til I think of what they lived with for so many years.

So back to the title yes their are Iraqi civilians being killed but 90% are being killed by Insurgents.

Originally posted by IncognitoGhostman
I want to start this off by saying that I'm an American Soldier fighting on the ground in Iraq.

All reads believeable to me

Good luck over there (better thee than me). I would not trade places with you for anything.

Need something sent to you gimme a u2u.

IncognitoGhostman

Thank you for your post and a nice view into this problem from another side. I really like to see as many views as possible over one subject in order to see the bigger picture. You, as a US soldier serving in Iraq, have ofcourse a unique view, mostly infulenced by your own Army. Ofcourse the Army always protects itself and its components - so I guess if the truth was that most of the civilan casualties were reallyc caused by US bombs and tanks, I am sure that they would not admit that, and ofcourse try to blame the other side.

I understand your situation and I do not envy you, but then again you chose this "job" and now its a little bit too late to complain and say "I quit!". Anyway, that is not the issue here. You are basicly a mercenary soldier, hired by the rogue US goverment to invade and occupy a foreign nation. Why exactly, I see nobody really bothers to ask themselves, as you said, that you dont have to AGREE with you being there - which means that US goverment has gone inseane and is really just killing many, many people just for their selfish corporate desires. Do you think that your Commander of Armed Forces, mister Bush really cares for Iraqi people? Or even HIS people, the American people, that are fighting and dying in some foreign land? How do you feel about that?

OK, Saddam was tyrannt and he killed Alot of his own people - but lets not forget that he killed those people when he was In Bed with Pentagon, and mister Rumsfeld visited him on regular basis; selling weapons to Iraq and making big oil deals. Everything was Great in that times between USA and Iraq. But then Saddam decided to Nationalize the Oil in Iraq, and use that oil and money to fund schools and hospitals and other social servies - so, Yes he was a cruel leader, but he was a nationalist, and wanted to help his Nation. So that really triggered Gulf War and War in Iraq.

Then there is the tribal situation in Iraq - three siedes fighting each other for many of centures. I mean struggle between Shia and Sunni muslims goes way, way back and I dont think that US Forces can really do much to stop what they really started in the first place - an Iraqi Civil War. The division between Shia and Sunni dates back to the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and the question of who was to take over the leadership of the Muslim nation. Sunni Muslims agree with the position taken by many of the Prophet's companions, that the new leader should be elected from among those capable of the job. This is what was done, and the Prophet Muhammad's close friend and advisor, Abu Bakr, became the first Caliph of the Islamic nation. So as you can see, this struggle for power is really Centuries old! So do you think that US soldiers can stop this and draw the line between these two people? Well not to mention the Kurdish people - to which the current president of Iraq belongs. They are the third side, that will soon use the presence of US tropps to start and create their own, independant Kurdistan.

Its a very strange circle of violence that will not allow US forces to leave this place for a long time:

- Insurgents attack US troops because they are in Iraq
- US troops must stay in Iraq to defend Iraqi people against insurgent attack and to defend the most important oil wells
- So, US troops wont leave and Insurgents will keep attacking them Forever, if this circle of violence does not stop!

Anyway, I know you are not the one responsible for all this mess, and I do not have anything against Men and Women who serve in US Army - for they did not come here by themselves.

But I do have strong arguments against your current goverment, which is really a corporate owned and guided goverment, that does not care for their own people, and not for anybody else in this World. Their only concern is to secure their stocks in the Wall Street and to earn more money. America in hands of these hardline rulers will soon become a Real Fascist State, and can already be compared to Nazi Germany in 1930. Your govemrent is already ONE with many Oil and Weapon Corporations, and they are the ones who decide who lives and who dies today.


"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

Theres a big difference between colateral damage and the targeting of civilians. I sincerly doubt any coalition troops target civilians. No one said the war/regime change is going to be easy. Civilians die in wars and im sure their death is kept to minimum. This is in contrast to your freedom guerillas who no doubt use the same arguments as you use about the current US/western coalition.

As the service member stated - there are specific rules of engagement.

Civilians should know by now to stay away from 50 cals and stop at checkpoints. Of course the soldiers are a bit uneasy - if i was in their position i wouldnt let anyone come within 50 meters of me - i have the utmost respect for all the servicemen who put their life on the line. The Iraqi war was perfectly lawful even without the WMD - Iraq posed as threat to regional and global security.

As for "Rumsfeld in bed with Saddam" thats cold war geopolitics and the its associated remnants. At a time when the enemy of your enemy is your friend (Iran). Thats how things are done on the international stage - live with it. The US exploits its dominant international position - would you suggest stand back and let some other despot reap all benefits that your forefathers have granted you.

As for the circle of violence i disagree.

The Iraqi forces are growing in strenght and will defending there own people and resources. I can see these insurgents/freedom guerilla's become outlaws within their own land - killing their own people and destroying thier own resources.

Im not ashamed to say that stable oil reserves and more importantly stable oil prices will be a long run benefit of the removal of a dangerous and evil dictator. The US is not stealing the oil - they are paying the Iraqi's well for it - thats why they will defend it themselves.

Well as i see it The Explosions and stuff like that Destroy bodies and destroy Identifying marks such as ; Fingers :skulls(teeth) and lfeet(footprints) So how are we to Identify and count the dead if we donot know if they are ours at all